LittleNipper
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- Mar 9, 2005
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Some do, and they are wrong. Everytime this happens people usually make a terrrible mess of things...
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Shouldn't Christians protect animals from extinction?
- Thread starter God of Love
- Start date
I can see your point. I'm a moderate leaning toward the left who does believe in a forgiving, loving God. But yeah, I would agree that those who don't believe in God, be them liberal or conservative, and do try to take care of the planet (not that that's a bad thing).
What's curious to me is the Christians who feel so insecure they need to construct some mental hierachy of a "who God loves the most" list. Their insecurity keeps them from believing that God could love a drug-addict just as much as "the good Christian" (which always happens to be them). To me, love (especially unconditional love), simply doesn't work that way... but if anyone needs more of God's love, it's going to be the drug-addict.
Thanks for your point. It was good.
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Wow. A flicker of hope.
And then it goes out like a candle in a hurricane.
Sounds like you didn't comprehend the parts that say believing Man is better than the beasts is simply vanity, that's what. You might want to re-read verses 19 - 22 again.
Agreed. All animals, including the one called Man, has a soul.
You said "everything is relative".
Let's go slow, so you can get it.
"Everything" would imply ALL things. If that's the case, there can be no absolute truth. Part of that "everything" is the Bible. That makes it's truths relative and subjective to prevailing conditions. It's teachings, it's 10 commandments, and everything in it are relative. In other words you've just made the Bible meaningless and subject to conditions, time, and circumstances.
Again, are you sure you want to take that stance?
Okay, I'll concede and agree with you. The self-righteous greenies are holy.
That's clear as mud. Thanks.
I hope they tend to love animals a wee bit more than you do... without the "use 'em as we need 'em" attitude.
Nobody is asking you to worship them, just to do you part in helping them out as you can and respecting their right to live. The difference between you and me is, if I'm driving through the country and see a turtle crossing the road, I'll stop and move it off the road rather than hitting it and cursing that it got in my way.
Despite the truth that we are beasts, and can be much more cruel and beastlike than most other animals.
I'll pray for Him.
I'll put in a word for you, too, while I'm there. Seems like you could use it.
It doesn't take throwing good money after bad to stop and move a turtle out of the road ... and you feel a lot better afterwards.
The point is, there is a difference between "pro-life" and "anti-abortion". You're certainly not pro-life, since there is life you care little about.
Correction. You believe that man is an endangered species. Personally, I was born okay the first time, and look forward to spending time with a God who reconciles ALL things ... not just some.
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Why not, Adam and Eve were superior to them, and they didn't have all that junk.[/quote]dad"[quote="POSW said:
I guess we're at an impasse, then. I don't believe in Adam and Eve as anything more than fictional characters, and you're convinced they actually existed.
My point was that there are animals that are superior to man in terms of physical strength. Do you seriously think you could fight a grizzly without a weapon and win?
dad][quote="POSW said:
Speak for yourself. Maybe you ought to stop killing them, if that is what you are doing.[/quote]
I was talking about industries - mining, logging, fishing, etc. Many times, there is a way to go about business while causing minimal harm to animals, but these industries don't do it, because it's not cheap enough.[/quote]
dad said:
I was talking figuratively. And you changed the subject. No, I was saying that you don't have to be a radical environmentalist wacko, just don't go about actively trying to wreck the environment if you're not.
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Neither is it my position. Giving a hoot does not mean evicting some old lady, if an owl happens to nest in her attic, so as not to disturb it. It is a question of balance, and priorities. It is also a spiritual question, as I see it these days. That is because most of the 'save the anything but man and make man pay through the nose, and try to make him feel guilty' crowd are coming from a certain spirit. That is not God's spirit. He does want us to take care of the earth, and the animals, yes, but that won't save the planet being ruined by wicked man.
It means I don't agree with the notion man can save the planet, or himself.
That means salvation, otherwise he won't be there to see that future.
No, it is bang on. We all care for the environment, far as I can tell, don't get self righteous about it. God cares about it to, that is why He will burn off all the junk unsaved wicked man stunk up the planet with! He is the One that can and will actually fix it.
Well, behavior that means spending our time is the same as spending our money, don't get haughty totty.
Depends on who you mean by "we". I meant believers in Jesus. We are the ones that will rule soon. He is the Great fixer. Nothing on this planet but eternal souls will make it off, it's all gonna burn, baby, burn. I kid you not. But Obviously there will be animals, so the Great Green Guy has it well in hand! We might better focus on getting ourself, and others saved, so something will make it.
Of course, we should try to not destroy the earth in the meantime, and all that stuff. For all the good it will do.
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Yes. I could run her over a few times.
So, I am to blame? I told you, this world is run by wicked men. That includes the greenies that do things like put metal nails in trees, so a logger might get seriously hurt cutting it with a chainsaw. 'save a tree, kill a logger' mentality.
I am safe, then. I don't go around trying to wreck the environment. Can I get a green pin now?
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Braunwyn
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I have not seen anyone in this thread suggest as much. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing -"either humans suffer or animals suffer". Instead of coming to the conversation with an attitude that we indeed are poor stewards "what can I do today to help" you come to it charging people with holding animals as a gods. There are things we can learn from eachother ya know. You don't have to muddy the conversation with defensive nonsensical charges.
This makes no sense to me and it comes off as a point to distract. It's not about 'save anything but man' because that is simply not the reality. Mankind goes out of its way to care for mankind period. Stating this isn't the case is again, ridiculous.
And I could care less about guilt. This conversation shouldn't be about guilt, defensiveness etc imo. It should be a platform to share ideas on how we can help in our own small ways.
Well, i would imagine that it would depend on what we're attempting to save ourselves from. It varies widely. Pick an issue and there might be solutions.
Ok, salvation from what specifically?
How is it bang on? Why do you assume that people that care for the environment don't care for their fellow humans? By association caring for the environment is an aspect of caring for humans. We won't thrive in a polluted environment.
I'm sorry, but I don't see god stepping in (in the immediate future at least) to address the fact that we pollute our water ways, which hurts humans, animals, the environment etc.
Attempting to curb urban sprawl on a personal level actually saves people money. People that have access to commuter rails, for example, spend less money and time than their F/T driving counter-parts while reducing their contributions to traffic, car pollution etc. So, you referring to me as haughty totty is inaccurate.
I don't know where you are but last I checked Jesus believers were the majority in the US and the lack of care in this country is concerning.
So, if one of your kids developed cancer due to maneur lagoons that pollute local water, for example, in the midwest because local co's found a way to skate regulation, you're saying that you wouldn't A. try to save your child B. make an attempt to challenge these co's because "it's all gonna burn, baby, burn" Yea, right.
And all that stuff. Spoken like a person that could care less. Big surprise. At least you can take comfort in the fact that you are in the majority.
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I'll take God word over yours, thanks. I already linked to a huge page of support.
The reference is to death. The rest of the bible is there, if you have any doubts. You cannot make a biblical case to support your preferred interpretation of this obscure passage.
Right, we all die, this is news?
I don't think otherwise, our bodies will die. So? That does not in any way make us mere beasts.
Not in this state of being fallen, where all die, of course, in respect to death, it happens to all.
I know. Saved spirits go up. You can tack that in your bible there. 'dad knows'. Piece of cake. If you have a slight difficulty taking my word for it, look at Jesus, He went up. No burning issue there at all.
It means get over it, you will die like everything else.
No need, He came to earth, so we ought to know what He is like. He came as a man, by the way, not a flatworm, or a monkey.
If that point was about animals having souls, I rend to agree they do. Not like human souls, of course. I believe that saved people can see their former pets in heaven.
That, you think answers the 22 bible verses that were given as support? No. That simply shows you have no actual bible case, but persoanal opinion. That and a dollar might get you a donut.
If we do not want to stay dead, we better get saved. We do not all go to one place at all, we simply all die in the flesh. Don't kid yourself.
You tell us?
That was a summation of a biblical case about man and animals. Nothing to do with me, or my ego.
Everything in the bible is relative to the bible. Feel better? In other words, you can't pick out a snippet, and mis apply id to your greenie philosophy.
It is relative to what it is meant to mean, whwn it was meant to mean it, and to whom it was meant to apply. For example, it did not apply to murderers, they were to be whacked. In fact, I think that we all ought to launch a class action suit against the judges, charging THEM with murder, since they let off the killers, that run out and kill again! Put those 2 bit little wicked so called gods into their place. Any thinking man would have nothing but contempt for them, and their kangaroo courts.
It is relative to the rest of the bible. One way of loving an enemy that is a murderer might be to kill him dead? God loved man but had to kill them with the flood. God loved Jesus, but let wicked man kill Him to save us all, whom He also loves.
No, I took it away from your greenie grasp, by invoking context.
"'wor·ship play_w("W0230400") ..
n.1. a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
2. Ardent devotion; adoration.
3. often Worship Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.
v. wor·shiped or wor·shipped, wor·ship·ing or wor·ship·ping, wor·ships
v.tr.1. To honor and love as a deity.
2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.
v.intr.1. To participate in religious rites of worship.
2. To perform an act of worship.
I already do that. I eat meat too. Is that OK?
Why would we not put animals in their place? What, we should put them on an altar?
OK. Makes me wonder if those giving licenses ought to think about that sort of thing?
Oh, so, some are cool, and like animals. OK. You think Christians want to mow them down, and hate them. Strange. Ever consider your attitude might be the problem?
Yes, you did make that false accusation. You did say that. Why you like to accuse falsely, and lie, I have no idea.
You were one of the hunters, whether you pulled the trigger on Bambi or not. Maybe you are not as perfect as you think.
I see, what did your god do, and say. if anything? Is he the one that told you I wanted to run over turtles?? Hope it doesn't ask you to weird things. I have heard that happens to some.
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But the green folks do that sort of thing to people in real life.
"For the last 12 years the couple, who are technically homeless, have resided in this troll-like compound deep in the forest, with its grand staircase etched into the dirt and a snug living room with smooth branches for sofas. ''Aren't we blessed?'' Mr. Serdahely, 58, asked rhetorically, preparing spiced tea in an earthen fireplace in the tree.
.. authorities in San Mateo County stapled an eviction notice to the ancient trunk, giving the couple 30 days to vacate the tree,
The San Mateo County Parks and Recreation Department, which presides over this still-pristine habitat that is home to the endangered Mission Blue butterfly and other imperiled creatures,
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E1D7113EF93BA3575AC0A9649C8B63&fta=y
"
Couple barred from living in £1million house for year after protected newts move in after flood"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=546432&in_page_id=1770
Need more??
" George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by a tree spike."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_spiking
"The Animal Liberation Front is a criminal organization that has claimed responsibility for thousands of acts of violence against animal enterprises and their employees, mostly in the United States and Great Britain."
Robin Webb -- Children of Researchers Are Legitimate Targets
"
http://www.animalrights.net/archives/related_topics/organizations/pro_ar/alf.html
It is about man trying to save himself, and the planet, by his own works, and righteousness, and efforts. While environmentalist efforts might be good in some cases, they are a band aid solution that cannot save us.
Or, whether saving endangered species is the way to help!
From the death, and hell of man's sinful fallen state.
Maybe they do, but apparently it is not the top priority of most of them.
The pollution, I contend is a result of the polluted nature of man. To fix it, we need to get at the real problem.
He will step in to save us from blowing up the planet, and all life. That includes the endangered species.
It was not because you brought up commuter trains, if you recall. Get off your high horse.
Well, check Washington again, where the rules are made, and the state lawmakers. You will find they tossed God out long ago. If you want the majority to have a real say, maybe we could have a whole bunch of referendums on things. Like,
-Do you want prayer in schools, yes or no?
Do you want coal power plants?
etc.
No, I wasn't saying all that stuff. I was saying that only God can fix the mess wicked man has made. And it will have to burn to clean it up, by the way, that is how bad it will be messed up.
I do care as much as you. I simply realize that wicked men are running this wicked dirty world at the moment. That means I do what I can, and do not feel guilty about all I can't do.
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Braunwyn
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I'm confused about your angle here. Do you support their dwelling or not? It looks as if environmentalists are pro and con on the issue. What say you?
Yes, I do feel for those folks that can't live in their million dollar home. My sympothies might stretch a bit farther if they were not rich. C'mon.
Are you saying that the people in this thread would ask you, demand, that you leave your million dollar home if newts were to take occupancy? Maybe.
So, you're saying that we shouldn't care about the environment because there are nutty environmentalists? Does this mean you should forgo christianity because, as we well know, christianity is full of nuts? Really?
See above. I disagree with meeting violence with violence. To act responsibily, neither violence or rejection of responsibility is necessary. I realize you would prefer to do nothing; to advocate for no responsibility but that will only lead to our demise. I can't fathom why you take this position.
thus far you haven't showed anything in the way of righteousness. Rejecting personal responsibility is not righteous.
So says you. No doubt your passing on this earth will go unnoticed if you choose to sit by the wayside but our progess does not lay with those who don't care. And it's your right not to give a hoot but it's nothing to celebrate or parade.
Curbing urban sprawl, which helps endangered species, helps humans. It's sad that you don't care that we wipe out species in the name of gluttony. Even if you weren't to lift a finger, not caring goes back to my original charge of apathy.
If you're capable can you be more specific? Fallen state is too wide. Your apathy is a fallen state. Is that what you want to address?
How about you just stick with the people in this thread given they can speak for themselves where those not engaging in the thread can't.
Here we can agree. One way to fix the real problem, which is apathy, is to address the apathetic.
Well, obviously you're going to wait around for god to step in. Excuse me while I prefer to address my own responsibility of our situtation. Sadly, this is something (personal responsibility) that I expect or was expecting to see from a mature, aware adult.
The only reason you see anyone on a high horse is because you have your face/head in the sand. All is high to you.
Prayer in schools exists all over the US. I attended a catholic school most of my life and prayers were a daily routine. If you want to go to a school that offers christian prayer that option is there for you and then some...given you live in the US. Who in the world is stopping you from attending these schools?
You're still advocating "do nothing".
Nobody is talking about what you can't do. I would like to hear what you, me, we can do.
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Braunwyn
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Yes, Reverend Korda is a he lol.
Well, obviously you don't know too much about Chris. He's a (or I should say was) shock jock of sorts. Not a greenie from what I understand although I believe he's a vegetarian. I bet he would be pleased to see that he is still getting air play on the net.
Given that he's a Boston native, where I reside, I would be more concerned over YOUR supporters in our neck of the woods given our recent years news of pedophilia in the catholic church. If you really want to play that game than we can easily go there ---- Priests molesting children vs weird man in a wig holding a sign ---- hmmmm
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The angle was that was a quick google example of people evicted by, apparently green minded folks.
I see. So let the old geysers live in a motel till they die, for all you care, long as the newts are not disturbed. OK. Now we are getting somewhere. By the way, it is hypocritical to associate wealth with those that are not green to the bone.
"David Mayer de Rothschild (born 25 August 1978) is a British adventurer and environmentalist, and head of Adventure Ecology, an expedition group raising awareness about climate change. He is the youngest of three children of Victoria Schott (b. 1949) and Sir Evelyn de Rothschild (b. 1931) of the Rothschild banking family of England."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Mayer_de_Rothschild
And, of course, old Al.
"Gore has managed to become pretty wealthy--without trying. In his latest financial disclosures, he estimates his family's net worth at $1.4 million to $2.5 million. We've discovered that he and Tipper are also likely to receive millions in inheritances--"
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/moneymag_archive/2000/11/01/290897/index.htm
Should we evict him too?
They better have more than words.
If the gospel was clear for the greenies, I could decide, as I do with the gospel of Christ, who is the nut. Till then, they all are suspect!
I prefer to do plenty, it just doesn't involve things greenies might like.
I don't reject personal responsibility, but I don't assume the responsibility of wicked men either. Righteousness has nothing to do with greenieism.
Great, so you call me fat, and the other guy says I want to massacre turtles gleefully, and now I am insignificant as well. Boy, you really have a self righteous religion there.
I give a hoot, just not about greenie time wasting, hypocritical, creature worshiping, tree hugging, animals first nonsense.
Hey, if I could I'd curb the cities! You got nothin on me.
There is that gluttony thing again. Who is eating what here??? Or is it just part of your greenie belief system to envision all others as obese?
I do care, a lot, but not about your efforts to worry us to death over selected animal species.
Fallen state refers to the garden of Eden, where the fall of man happened. We went into a state of sin.
How about if the shoe fits. wear it? I don't know the people in this thread, they aren't famous, that I know about. So I look to the animal rights movement, and environmental movements etc. Saving endangered species did not start in this thread.
Some people care about some things, others care about other things. Those that are not enthused about your pet projects do not have to be apathetic, in general, just to your greenie stuff. I'd say that wasn't a bad thing.
How would you know? You think we would see Him long before He shows up??
The wicked are responsible, mostly. Do you really think they care? I care, but realize that there is not that much I can do about a polluted planet, changing climate, and animals going extinct.
I am aware of the plight of our planet, and it's creatures. The way to fix things is to look to God. He is the only way, because He starts working on the hearts of men, right at the real problem. Playing around evicting old folks, to save newts just will not save the planet. Face it.
Did I say I lived in a certain country? No. You guys are so presumptuous, it is comical. If a majority wanted Christian prayer in the public schools, who should over rule that?? You?
Not at all. Do plenty. In all your doing, however, don't waste time on doing the greenie thing. Do something of value.
About what, saving doomed animals on a doomed planet full of wicked men? Well, maybe you ought to try catching raindrops, next time you don'rt want it to rain, and it does. You will get about as far, no matter how much you care, or work at it.
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Tell him that.
My supporters? Didn't know I had any. If they are my supporters, then tell them to get married, and lay off the altar boys.
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Braunwyn
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Er, that seems to be the luck of homeless people setting up camp on public land. Some will be for it, others againts regardless of enviro slants. I still don't get your point.
lol they own a million dollar home. It's unlikely they will live out their days in motel-8.
Again, what in the world are you talking about? Are you hitting the vino tonight?
Again, I don't get your point. Are you saying that green people should only be wealthy or poor?
If it were to be the gov than I imagine it would be more than words. I know you're not suggesting violent undertones given your post back a few about violent AR and enviros.
It's so hard trying to figure out what you're talking about. gospel for the greenies? what does this mean? all are suspect of what?
I would love to hear/read what you do that greenies would or wouldn't like...something positive though.
You don't care enough to even have a conversation about our environment let alone anything that would qualify as righteousness. I don't even know why you would bring it to the conversation.
Stop acting as if anyone forces you to not care about anything but yourself. You are the one boasting your unwarranted superiority and it will always be recieved poorly.
If you don't care about the environment than you don't care about humans. What affects animals, affects humans. That's the reality. Granted, it's obvious that you are oblivious to these facts but ignorance isn't an excuse in the way of solution. It offers nothing.
this is not a response to your claims that it costs more to take care of our environment. Try again.
Spiritually obese? What are you talking about? hmmm, you equate obesity with gluttony. I've never considered it that way but it's food for thought.
[jjquote]I do care, a lot, but not about your efforts to worry us to death over selected animal species.[/quote]
Do you really believe that animal extinctions caused by humans don't have consequences that do and will affect humans? Over fishing is a good example. It wreaks havoc on marine ecosystems; destroys food supplies for other species; and in turn threatens our water supply. We don't exist in little bubbles. How you could think otherwise boggles me.
Yes, and in the garden Adam, Eve, et al were all vegetarian and considerate of eachother. You in turn prefer to embrace the fall. You just love the sin don't you? No need to even think about being the way your god intended humans to be...no, that's too much to ask. You prefer to embrace all the fall had to offer. That's just great.
If you want to ask questions of enviro's, AR folk, AW folk than you have the opportunity because there are some in this thread. The person that started this thread is not the AR movement, a famous person etc. He's CF member. A real person you could, if you wanted, engage with.
You are apathetic to your environment. I said this based on your posts. I'm going on what you bring to the table, nothing more.
I know how because you said as much. Whether or not he is seen or not is irrelevant to us taking action and modifying behavior so that it fits with our environment to benefit us and our planets inhabitants over all. If there was a god I don't doubt for a second that s/he would be in favor of her/his children caring for her creation to the best of our ability.
I don't think you care based on your posts. You keep equating giving a hoot with making animals gods and that's offensive and so off on many levels. Not only are you indifferent but you are disrespectful of those that don't share your indifference. And it doesn't matter, or at least it shouldn't, what other people do. We do what's right because it's right.
First don't skew the story. If they were to old folk that were ending up homeless because of newts I'd be the first to yelp over it. You're using millionaires as an example and it doesn't fly. Be reasonable. And as far as god working on the hearts of men...what in the world do you think we've been discussing here? Obviously people can move for change if they don't care. Caring would require a heart, not indifference. Instead of addressing that you shun those that do have a heart.
I have no idea what country you're in. I keep forgetting to look at your flag if you have one. The majority, christians, have opted out of a church run state. That does not mean you don't have schools to pray in so you need not complain about it. I could care less really as long as you don't use my tax dollars to fund your prayer sessions. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists, Muslims (insert whoever I'm missing) should and do have the right to pray all they want, whenever, where ever. Any child has the right to pray at a public school. You just don't have the right to force others to witness or participate. I think that's fair.
Again, I don't get your point. And I'm not sure to what extent you take the greenie thing. Don't worry about me doing something of value. I'm fine in my work. You might want to take your own advice though.
Your attitude is so prevelant and not just with enviro stuff but with politics, law, culture. Nobody is short-sighted enough to think one person can solve global or regional issues. Solutions require the joint efforts of many and your attitude is a hinderance to such efforts.
Cuss the greenies all you want but I've seen fruits from their labor. It was CWA that cleaned up the jersey shore in the 80s and fought polluters in the 90's from dumping chemical waste in the great lakes. Even today though it's not safe to consume more than 4-5 oz of fish/week due to mecury levels and it's issues greenies still confront. If it weren't for people that cared we'd all be worse off. You're just ignorant to successes and that they do indeed play a role in your life. All you have to give back is negativity.
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