Why then?

jdale72 said:

I'm a little screwed up about whose who in the zoo. To the question . Is the devil a fallen angel. If so, where do you see that in scipture? Outside of the assumption that Eziekel and Isiah are talking about him in ch.28 & ch.14. What did Jesus mean when he called satan a murder and liar from the beginning? Was He referring to the beginning before the fall or the beginning after the fall? Either way if he fell or was created the way he is ,God had to have planned it ,right? I don't think God is one to be blind sided with the unexpected. Why then, was the devil created?

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Angels, like man were created with free choice.
Satan chose to replace God, that failed.
He deceived Eve (lied) Caused Cain to kill Abel (murderer).
So yes Satan is a fallen angel.
No god was not blindsided, He knows what has and will happen. Jesus was appointed our sacrificial lamb before the beginning of time
19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. 20 God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.
Holy Bible : New Living Translation.
1 Peter 1:19-20

Just because God knew what he was going to choose, does not mean that he didnt have free choice. There is no free choice in the physical, it is all just biological reactions, action, opposoite reaction. Our free choice is based in our spirits, where we indeed have "choice".

jdale72 said:

I'm a little screwed up about whose who in the zoo. To the question . Is the devil a fallen angel. If so, where do you see that in scipture? Outside of the assumption that Eziekel and Isiah are talking about him in ch.28 & ch.14. What did Jesus mean when he called satan a murder and liar from the beginning? Was He referring to the beginning before the fall or the beginning after the fall? Either way if he fell or was created the way he is ,God had to have planned it ,right? I don't think God is one to be blind sided with the unexpected. Why then, was the devil created?

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Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are talking about the Cherrub know as Helel, otherwise know as Lucifer, aka Satan.

We also see in the book of Job that Satan is an angel who isn't exactly a member of God's inner court anymore.

Job 1:6-7, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, From where do you come? So Satan answered the Lord and said, from going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.

Also:

Job 2:1, Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord.

The sons of God are angels, supernatural beings, who are of a high order in the heavenly court of God, known as the Divine Council. In the Job passages, a being by the name of Satan is introduced as being among the sons of God who are presenting themselves to the Lord in Heaven. Being that no earthly human being can just simply go up to heaven and talk with God, this being named Satan has also got to be a supernatural being of some sort. In the following discourse that this Satan has with God we see that this Satan has a certain amount of authority. He also is shown as a being who is, in the very least, at odds with the Lord.

As for your other question: I believe the beginning Jesus is speaking about is the beginning of this present age. The present age I believe started roughly 6,000 to 8,000 thousand years ago. Through scripture we can rightly assume that the serpent in the garden of Eden was this Satan spoken of in the books of Job, Isaiah, and Ezekiel, and is the character that Jesus is refering to. The serpent lied to the woman and ended up being "cursed" by God for the part it played in the spiritual death of the man and woman. In other words, God Himself convicted this serpent (Satan) of being both a lier and a murderer and that is why God layed down the curse on him.

jdale72 said:

I'm a little screwed up about whose who in the zoo. To the question . Is the devil a fallen angel. If so, where do you see that in scipture? Outside of the assumption that Eziekel and Isiah are talking about him in ch.28 & ch.14.

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I don't know of any Scripture that *explicitly* states that the devil is a fallen angel. But such a belief is a reasonable conclusion drawn from various passages.

The Ezekiel and Isaiah passages in and of themselves are not good support for the belief. They are explicitly addressed to *earthly* rulers. There *may* be a double reference -- they may be likening those evil rulers to the devil -- but that is uncertain, and probably not worth considering if other passages did not lend tangential support.

2 Cor. 11:14 makes reference to "the devil" and "angel of light," but says that is a "disguise" or "masquerade" (lit. "transformation").

Matt. 25:41 gives fairly strong support in referring to the devil and "his" angels -- implying he is the leader of an angelic cohort.

Rev. 12:9 uses the same language, and also informs us that "satan," "the dragon," and "the serpent of old" (presumably from Gen. 3) are one and the same.

Also in that context (Rev. 12) we see celestial conflict between Michael and his army vs. "the dragon" and his, with the dragon losing and being "thrown down."

This is reminiscent of Luke 10:18, where Jesus said He saw (or "was watching") satan fall from Heaven like lightning.

It is also reminiscent of Dan. 10:13, where a celestial being appears to Daniel and recounts how he had been opposed for 21 days by the (celestial) ruler of Persia, until Michael, one of the high (celestial) rulers came to his aid.

In Job, we see "the satan" appearing among the "sons of God." In some places, the phrase, "sons of God" might constitute royalty, but in the context of Job, it appears to be some sort of celestial council. (see. 1 Ki. 22:19-23)

In Eph. 2:2 we see reference to the "ruler of the powers of the air." The language is somewhat reminiscent of the heavenly conflicts cited previously. The context suggests it refers to God's primary adversary, i.e. the devil. (The Eph. passage doesn't show him to be of angelic origin, but it is sort of interesting to see potential linkages to other passages.)

What did Jesus mean when he called satan a murder and liar from the beginning? Was He referring to the beginning before the fall or the beginning after the fall?

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Since John is the one who quotes Him saying that, it probably means the same thing as in John 1 -- which is to say that he may not be dividing things that finely. All the early events recorded in Genesis could constitute "the beginning."

The devil was called a deceiver and murderer because, as we see in the Revelation passage, he was in some sense "the serpent" who deceived Eve and ultimately cause man to fall into mortality.

Either way if he fell or was created the way he is, God had to have planned it, right? I don't think God is one to be blind sided with the unexpected. Why then, was the devil created?

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God knows the end from the beginning, so no, He never has to go, "Oh, Me, I never saw THAT coming!" (Hyper-Arminian Open Theism notwithstanding)

As to why -- I guess if He thought it was any of our business, He'd have told us. As far as we can tell, He never did explain Himself to Job.

Shizzle said:

Just because God knew what he was going to choose, does not mean that he didnt have free choice. There is no free choice in the physical, it is all just biological reactions, action, opposoite reaction. Our free choice is based in our spirits, where we indeed have "choice".

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Never heard it explained that way before. Interesting. Think you might be right.

Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

One third of all the angels fell according to Revelation 12, it says, "When the dragon fell he took one third of the stars with him." So there are two-third holy angels on our side and one third fallen angels. And when the war between the two happens in the twelfth chapter of Revelation, in the Tribulation, the holy angels win, Michael and his holy angels are victorious. And they cast those fallen angels to the earth, so you have the loose ones on the earth, you have the temporarily bound ones released, and you have all of the rest of them that are in space cast to the earth and that’s what creates the horrible tribulation, because they all wind up on the earth at the same time. And the restrainer is pulled back and all hells breaks loose.

Luk 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Without going into a lot of scripture at the moment (not feeling great) ... here's what I know.

The reason the fallen angels are fallen is because all souls had to be born into this world age through the womb (of water) into a flesh body. Because of free will everyone has that choice. The fallen angels refused to be born into this age through the womb. This is the age evil will be done away with when Jesus comes. Draw your conclusions on that one. But I know this to be true from scripture. Sometime this weekend I will look them all up. But that is my understanding of how they came about. As for the whos, whats, whys and wheres of why and what God does ... I have no comment. That's God's business.

Demons are fallen angels or at least angels for the devil:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)

Acidently unsubscribed from the thread when I didn't want to, so I'm subscribing again...

There are ideas that come from extra biblical sources that speak to these things.
According to these... before the creation of the earth a lot of things went on in the universe. "Archons" were the conduits of power and authority in the universe.There were many names and titles in these. A comprehensive book on demonology and angelolgy (not the pop culture stuff... I am talking about ancient Hebrew writings) should give a long listing. It was of these "archons" that rebelled and fell.

Read for interest but with care... with more than a grain of salt.