Questions

ChavaK said:

Yes, we are forbidden to enter a church, for the
reason Fremen stated.
I don't have the exact citations, but if I remember
correctly this is from an interpretation of the Mishna
by the Rambam, from the Talmud, from modern
responsa and is based on a pasuk from the
Torah regarding "not looking
upon idols". I can look up the exact citations if
you really need the details...

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so does this mean any church or just those that have statues, like the RCC? Many Protestant have nothing, some don't even have crosses, so would there still be a prohibition then?

ChazakEmunah said:

Please tell me what pagan influences there are in Judaism.

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Well, many come to mind after the return from Babylon, for instance the names of the months.............I wouldn't classify this as an influence but most likely an attachment.

ContraMundum said:

However, the point is this: what it true belongs to God. Even if the pagans got it first, or more emphasis, if it's true, it belongs to God. Also- God has a wonderful way of redeeming the lost and the sinful. That should never be forgotten. Even Israel took spoils from Egypt.

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Very true. but then again they turned right around and made a n idol with it.

fremen said:

It depends on how one interprets Torah. Torah prohibits use from getting involved with what is considered idolatry by Torah standards. According to our sages, the worship of a Triune G-d compromises monotheism, hence making a church a "house of avodah zarah" by our halakhah.

Fremen

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But a triune is not three in one. Many believe there is a single G-d in three 'personalities'. Hard to describe.but many Messianics ( mostly of Jewish background) believe as the Shema says, we do not believe in three gods or three persons of G-d.

As a side note, since Islam shares the same kind of monotheism that Judaism holds, it is not considered sinful for a Jew to enter a mosque and even attend its service. But by Jewish halakhah it's strictly forbidden to attend a Christian service of any kind.

Kol tov,
Fremen

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That is shocking to me. Doesn't it take into consideration that they couldn't possibly be worshiping the same G-d we do? For I don't believe they do, doesn't even make logical sense, let alone theological.

Zayit said:

so does this mean any church or just those that have statues, like the RCC? Many Protestant have nothing, some don't even have crosses, so would there still be a prohibition then?

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It means any church.

Zayit said:

so does this mean any church or just those that have statues, like the RCC? Many Protestant have nothing, some don't even have crosses, so would there still be a prohibition then?

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This means any church. However, there is a
machlochet about whether one can enter
the non-sanctuary part of a church (say
the social hall) for a non-religous event-
whether it is halacha or a chumra not to
do so.
Most Jews I know hold that you should
not enter any part of a church, if for
no other reason than maris ayin..

That is shocking to me. Doesn't it take into consideration that they couldn't possibly be worshiping the same G-d we do? For I don't believe they do, doesn't even make logical sense, let alone theological.

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For peace on the forum this is probably best
left unanswered...

a

fremen said:

Shalom all,
Here are some genuine questions for you:

1 - Do you believe that all of Jesus' followers are grafted into Israel? If so, then how come they don't have to follow the commandments of Israel? Why only the blessings, and not the duties?
Gentile believers are not grafted into the twelve tribes, they are grafted into the promises of Messiah. Gentiles are obligated to the Noahide commandments. Personally I believe that every believer should follow the entirety of the bible, both old and new, but that tends to get me labeled a Judaiser.

2 - If you agree that Israel is the bride of Hashem, and the Church is also the bride of Hashem, then does Hashem have two brides? Wouldn't that be polygamy?
This whole bride thing is getting tedious. It is a who cares issue. It is not salvational and does'nt really matter at this time. When the end comes we will find out what it means. In the mean time worry about salvational issues and forget the rest.

3 - Christianity seems to agree that Judaism was the way of Hashem before Jesus walked the earth. OK. So Jews were going to heaven before Jesus. But why would Hashem send a Jewish savior that would, after His death, automatically send Jews to hell? If you argue that Torah is still valid (Judaism agrees) because Hashem doesn't change (Judaism agrees), then why would Hashem change His mind about the salvation of the Jews?
G-d is not a man that He should change. What we now know as Judaism and the Jewish people are still the way of G-d. The bible says that All Israel shall be saved, I think that says it all.


4 - Why is the Oral Torah not accepted among Messianics, though it is practiced at random (ie. lighting Shabbos candles, the whole synagogue rites, etc.)?
Unfortunately many if not most Messianic Jews came out of the Protestant movements. They still carry that baggage. We are a people of tradition and the Protestant movements for the most part reject tradition. Until our people grow up and divorce themselves from this nonsense we will continue to be fragmented and in disarray. The more advanced Messianic Jews accept the traditions that are valid for today and weed out the ones that either have no meaning any longer or are opposed to belief in Y'shua.

5 - Where do you get the notion that Oral Torah is legalism?
Legalism is the crime leveled against anyone that practices tradition by the Protestant movements. The Messianic movement is slowly moving back to its roots in Judaism and away from Protestant things. As this happens we will be charged with legalism and idolatry or whatever else they can find to try to invalidate the movement.

Dank!

Fremen

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RCohen-
Do you consider Messianic Gentiles who have come
from the Protestant religions, and become
messisanic, to be Messianic Jews?

Contra,

I hate to run too far down this rabbit trail here in this great thread, but I think I'll reply to one comment:

I'd say that what you said above also applies to the Christianity. A lot of attemps have been made in recent years to try to show "pagan" influences in the church, but so often they collapse under scrutiny. I don't think it's a terribly strong argument, to be frank.

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I'd say in the scholastic world there is undoubtebly no question whether pagan practices (transubstantiation), holy days (Christmas), symbols (cross), names (Easter = Ishtar), theologies (trinity), saints (hundreds of pagan deities represented here), etc. etc. etc. It isn't a random custom or two. The rabbit hole goes deep my friend. And amonst scholastic circles, there is no question. There virtually is no debate in the scholastic world as to the addition of these things to Christianity over the years (especially during the early centuries).

However, the question is... how do you deal with this infomation? There are really two approaches, the first of which Traditional Christianity has taken (Catholocism, Anglicans, etc.). Messianic Judaism has typically taken the second approach:

1) "Jesus" or "Christianity" has purified and reclaimed these pagan origins and they are now used for worshisp to G-d. "Pagan" means nothing more than the commoner's religion, and these symbols, days, etc have no power in themselves, but we (the church) have reclaimed them to our own.

or

2) These can not be reconciled with scripture as G-d commanded us to be free of such symbols, customs, etc. There is a clear cut defintion of what we are to accept and what we are to reject.


Now, I'm not judging you (or christianity as a whole) on which approach you take. Nor am I telling you which approach you should take. But know this Contra, in this subforum, most have taken the second approach. You'll find dozens of threads regarding this subject as you sift back through the pages of the MJ section.

shalom,
Yafet

p.s. Please try to avoid debating my specific examples here in this thread. I may/may not choose to take up the debate in another thread with you, I don't really have any interest in 'convincing' anyone, but I always do enjoy a healthy debate... so we'll see. But it is the greater or higher level I'm really presenting here, that Christianity overwhelmingly has added pagan customs, rituals, etc. to its core practices/beliefs. How does one approach this knowledge? That's really the interesting answer...

Do you consider Messianic Gentiles who have come
from the Protestant religions, and become
messisanic, to be Messianic Jews?

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That would be scary if he (or anyone) believed this.

simchat_torah said:

That would be scary if he (or anyone) believed this.

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I'll tell you something scary, I've actually run into people who believe this.

So have I...

on this forum....

last week.

ChavaK said:

RCohen-
Do you consider Messianic Gentiles who have come
from the Protestant religions, and become
messisanic, to be Messianic Jews?

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no, messianic gentiles

we are all g-ds children

if we are believers in Messiah Y'shua how can there be idols in a gentile church? while i am not all that comfortable being surrounded by crosses and other gentile symbols i don't look upon them as idols, they are just representations of how gentiles worship. ]I am certain that they would look upon our tefillin, tzitziot and kippot as being strange too.

many messianic works get their first meeting place in gentile churches until they can afford a building of their own

again, let's use a little common sense here and not denegrate our brothers and sisters in the faith

RebbeCohen said:

if we are believers in Messiah Y'shua how can there be idols in a gentile church? while i am not all that comfortable being surrounded by crosses and other gentile symbols i don't look upon them as idols, they are just representations of how gentiles worship. ]I am certain that they would look upon our tefillin, tzitziot and kippot as being strange too.

many messianic works get their first meeting place in gentile churches until they can afford a building of their own

again, let's use a little common sense here and not denegrate our brothers and sisters in the faith

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reperesentational art doesn't bother me in the slightest. I find it can be very helpful for a lot of people, including the three-dimensional sort.

However, there is one piece of art at my church that I find disturbing. It's renaisance piece, two dimensional oil reproduction. It shows three levels of reality, earthly, heavenly, and eternity. So you see christians worshpping on earth. And you see people in heaven, like Moshe, Adam, Paul, Elijah, Mary, Peter, etc. Yeshua is on the throne. But above this is the third heavenly realm, and G-d is represented in the painting as an old man. I have REAL problems with that. I don't want to even look at it. I just don't think our heavenly Father should be pictorially represented.

Please don't take offense to the following question... I am quite serious:

Do you find it acceptable to use a device of death, more specifically a device of capitol punishment (the cross), as a symbol for which to kiss, adore, and behold?

How is this not offensive? Yet various pictures of saints can be offensive to you?

-Yafet

GerTzedek said:

reperesentational art doesn't bother me in the slightest. I find it can be very helpful for a lot of people, including the three-dimensional sort.

However, there is one piece of art at my church that I find disturbing. It's renaisance piece, two dimensional oil reproduction. It shows three levels of reality, earthly, heavenly, and eternity. So you see christians worshpping on earth. And you see people in heaven, like Moshe, Adam, Paul, Elijah, Mary, Peter, etc. Yeshua is on the throne. But above this is the third heavenly realm, and G-d is represented in the painting as an old man. I have REAL problems with that. I don't want to even look at it. I just don't think our heavenly Father should be pictorially represented.

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I always thought that the depiction of Jesus in my hometown church was interesting. A white man with blue eyes and had flowing hair like a 70s rock star. At least, his face looked peaceful.

stone said:

no, messianic gentiles

we are all g-ds children

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Oh, I know that is what most MGs believe...but
I was wondering what his particular view was...

GerTzedek said:

reperesentational art doesn't bother me in the slightest. I find it can be very helpful for a lot of people, including the three-dimensional sort.

However, there is one piece of art at my church that I find disturbing. It's renaisance piece, two dimensional oil reproduction. It shows three levels of reality, earthly, heavenly, and eternity. So you see christians worshpping on earth. And you see people in heaven, like Moshe, Adam, Paul, Elijah, Mary, Peter, etc. Yeshua is on the throne. But above this is the third heavenly realm, and G-d is represented in the painting as an old man. I have REAL problems with that. I don't want to even look at it. I just don't think our heavenly Father should be pictorially represented.

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muffler dragon said:

I always thought that the depiction of Jesus in my hometown church was interesting. A white man with blue eyes and had flowing hair like a 70s rock star. At least, his face looked peaceful.

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md brings to mind something I've wondered about for a while. Hopefully its okay to ask here.

Most Christians would say that it is wrong to have depictions (pictures, statues, etc) of God. But many churches and Christian homes have paintings of Jesus or statues of him. I also understand that most Christians believe Jesus to be God. So, how do they reconcile having such depictions?

On a similar note, many Messianics take their cue from the custom to write God as "G-d", out of respect. Yet again, if they believe Jesus/Yeshua to be God, why do they write out fully his name?

I apologize if these questions offend anyone, I'm just seeking to understand.