The impending war with Iraq

Morat

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You also cited Morat &amp; said that Saddam knows the US might trash Baghdad if he dared use CBN against US forces. First, I cannot honestly see the US nuking Baghdad under <I>any</I> circumstances. Secondly, you and Morat share a common fallacy. You are assuming that Saddam Hussein thinks rationally/is as rational as you are/would act rationally. His past actions have shown beyond any doubt that he is most definitely <I>NOT</I> rational! Do you honestly think that he cares about anything other than his own skin? He certainly doesn't care for either Iraq or the Iraqi people, or human life in general.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Apparantly you studied history in Bizarro land, where things work the opposite of the way they do here.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Saddam Hussein is an evil, murdering dictator. One of a couple of dozen, in fact. And he's quite sane, and everything he does is designed to maintain or increase his own power.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Getting killed doesn't do that.&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The history of his actions is one of careful, rational choice (if amoral). He checked with the US about invading Kuwait, and was undoubtably surprised as all get out by our response. In 1991, he had biological and chemical weapons. Which he didn't use, even as his military was taken down around him. Why? Because we'd told him what would happen if he did.

&nbsp;&nbsp; So, apparantly he was rational 10 years ago.

&nbsp;&nbsp; So, here's my question: What irrational acts has Saddam Hussien ever made? I'm sure there has to be a couple. Bush does irrational things all the time, so I'm certain Saddam did a couple of crazy things somewhere.

&nbsp;&nbsp; So, tell me. What has he done that was irrational?

&nbsp;&nbsp; Invade Kuwait? Nope, he thought we would turn a blind eye. Use biological and chemical weapons against us? Nope, he knew we'd nuke him. Gas the kurds? Well, we haven't done much but wag the finger about that, especially since he's probably still using the helicopters we gave him to gas the Iranians. Prevent the inspectors from returning in 1998? Nope, he had great reasons. We'd stated that complying with the inspectors wouldn't get sanctions lifted, and we'd been using them to spy.

&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm at a loss to find anything truly irrational he's done. His past actions seem to very rational, with one goal: Maintaining power and control for himself.
 
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I saw on CNN the other night that they caught Iraq trying to sneak Uranium from Russia.

I wonder what they are gonna do with it?

I hope your tune is the same when they blow up NY, or DC, or Houston, Tx Morat...of course, the latter is less likely, huh?

If they can launch a missle 400 miles, all they have to do is get a boat that close to the East Coast, and boom, game over. He could even get a terrorist to do it so that people like you can say there isnt a smoking gun.
 
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Rae

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:sigh: I am appalled at the number of people who think war with Iraq is the answer. If Hussein is really all that evil, why not take HIM out with a commando raid, rather than killing his people, making them homeless, stranding them, etc?

Argh. Why bother? Any time I mention that war with Iraq won't necessarily get us what we want and will get us lots of undesirable consequences, I get lots of brick walls that still say, "But we have to stop Saddam!" :sigh: I guess the new versions of the Bible no longer say, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for you shall be called children of God." Apparently, they say, "Blessed are you who murder thousands of innocents to get one tyrant, for you are truly children of God."
 
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Morat

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I saw on CNN the other night that they caught Iraq trying to sneak Uranium from Russia.

I wonder what they are gonna do with it?

I hope your tune is the same when they blow up NY, or DC, or Houston, Tx Morat...of course, the latter is less likely, huh?

&nbsp;&nbsp; You mean this shipment?

&nbsp;&nbsp; Turkish police said over the weekend they had seized 33 lbs of weapons-grade uranium in a taxi about 155 miles from the border with Iraq, facing possible U.S. military action over its alleged program of weapons of mass destruction.

Officials said later the amount had in fact been about five ounces. The difference was explained by the weight of the metal container holding the material.

Scientists at Turkey's Nuclear Research and Training Center on the outskirts of Istanbul said on Tuesday the substance was not uranium and was not radioactive.

"It is a powder of zinc, manganese, iron and zirconium," Guler Koksal, director of the research facility told Reuters. "It is not radioactive, it is not chemical and it is not explosive."


&nbsp; Yes. I'm worried about that Zinc bomb they're building.

If they can launch a missle 400 miles, all they have to do is get a boat that close to the East Coast, and boom, game over. He could even get a terrorist to do it so that people like you can say there isnt a smoking gun.

&nbsp; You don't know a lot about missles, do you? At least the sort the Iraqi's have.
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

This was in today's Christian Science Monitor:

Do Iraqis want invasion? Ask victims of despots past

By John Hughes

SALT LAKE CITY - Much of my career in journalism has been spent viewing, and writing about, wars and
revolutions and turmoil in different quarters of the globe. Some foreign correspondents get jaded about all this, but
my most precious memories are of the liberation and joy that has often ensued from such upheaval.

When I first went to Africa as a correspondent, only Liberia and Ethiopia were free. By the end of my six-year stint,
most of Africa south of the Sahara had shrugged off colonial rule, although apartheid-oppressed South Africa
remained a sore exception.

In time, South Africa made a remarkable transition to freedom. Indelibly engraved in my memory are those pictures
of long, winding lines of emancipated Africans waiting to vote in their first democratic elections.

Another of my mental engravings: The joy of young Indonesians, who had grown up under Sukarno's despotism,
dancing in the streets in celebration of the dictator's fall. And in the Philippines, the outpouring of happiness when the
tyranny of Marcos came to an end.

More recently, a photo in my memory book is of broadly smiling Afghans, arms outstretched in greeting to American
soldiers liberating them from the stifling rule of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Too much of the world still lives in darkness and oppression. This is the principal problem besetting the Arab lands.
But over the years, freedom has gained in Latin America and Asia and Eastern Europe, and when it does, and is
accompanied by economic progress, it generally makes for greater stability.

In some countries, like war-torn Afghanistan, progress is painfully slow. But share in the ecstasy of young girls there
who can now go to school again after five years of denial under Taliban rule. Such immense pleasure from this
simple restored right is almost inconceivable to those of us in the free world.

It is worthwhile pondering all this as the US teeters on the brink of war with Iraq. Yes, a critical factor in the Bush
administration's motivation in toppling Saddam Hussein is to eliminate obscene weapons of mass destruction that
could be used against Americans – or any other nation in the world.

When President Bush outlined his national security strategy Sept. 20, most reaction focused on the concept of
preemptive military action against states and terrorist groups considered hostile. But another important plank in the
strategy was the encouragement of "free and open societies." Mr. Bush said the US would campaign against
violations of human dignity, promote freedom of religion and conscience, and encourage free markets and free
trade.

Thus another significant prospective by-product of military action against Mr. Hussein could be the liberation of 22
million Iraqis from their stultifying economic and political bondage. Despite its present austerity, Iraq after Hussein
would be no flat-on-its back country like Afghanistan. It has rich resources of oil, and a freed Iraq would attract foreign
investors.

Cobbling together a post-Hussein government would be an awesome challenge. Kurds, themselves riven by rivalries,
predominate in the north. Meanwhile, in the rest of the country, Shiite Arabs, who are in the majority, resent control by
Sunni Arabs, who are in the minority.

Outside Iraq, a jumble of exiled groups, representing religious, nationalist, and disaffected military factions, vie for
funding and favor in capitals from London to Washington to Amman and Damascus.

As we have seen in Afghanistan, freedom does not bring instant political cohesion or Jeffersonian democracy.
Factions tug, pull, and joust. That is not, however, a reason to deny them freedom.

Clearly, the US would be an important player in shoring up post-Hussein Iraq both politically and economically. Says
Vice President Dick Cheney: "In other times, the world saw how the United States defeated fierce enemies, then
helped rebuild their countries. We would act in that same spirit after a regime change in Iraq.... A liberated Iraq can
be a great nation once again."

Ridding Iraq of Hussein and the dangerous weapons he has declined to surrender would be an act of major
significance. Replacing him with a democratic system that would have an inspiring ripple effect in neighboring Iran
and throughout the entire Middle Eastern region would be just as meaningful.

I look forward to adding another photo to my memory book – of jubilant Iraqis throwing flowers and celebratory
handfuls of rice at the US and allied liberators.

• John Hughes, editor and chief operating officer of the Deseret News, is a former editor of the Monitor.

Link: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1002/p09s02-cojh.html

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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Lacmeh

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Yes you happilyx forget now, that the liberated Afghans war with each each other now the same as they did before Taliban. I can only congratulate to this installment of order...
The freedom gained in South and Middle America was despite the efforts of the US to support dictatorships.

Conviently forgetting the supporting of the Schah of Persia and after the revolution the supporting of Hussein in his war with the new government of Iran. Including the support in using the same vile chemical weapons US now wants gone from Iraq.
 
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coastie

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Yes you happilyx forget now, that the liberated Afghans war with each each other now the same as they did before Taliban. I can only congratulate to this installment of order...

How is that the fault of the US... they were waring before, they are waring now, and we can't pick and choose which warlord is going to get which city, so honestly, what would you do if you were president?

The freedom gained in South and Middle America was despite the efforts of the US to support dictatorships.

That may be a bit dramatic, but none the less, every South American I've ever met (short of a Haitian that tried to kill me :) ) loved Americans.


Conviently forgetting the supporting of the Schah of Persia and after the revolution the supporting of Hussein in his war with the new government of Iran. Including the support in using the same vile chemical weapons US now wants gone from Iraq.

"Conveneintly forgetting" "Happily foget"... Do you have a lot of animosity toward the US or just people who defend it? Not every one is trying to trick you... don't be so cynical.

And your statement is only partially factual. We want to eliminate the further manufacture and take away the weapons of the nation that has proven to be so dangerous. THe US is mroe worried about creating new weapons than using the old ones (however, both are equally dire concerns when speaking to officials).
 
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Lacmeh

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Coastie, you forgot how the US supported Pinochet, the Brazilian dictatorship, the variosu right wing militant groups in El Salvador and other places?
How Afghanistan is the fautl of the US?
Well US went in, Guns blazing, installed after the defeating of the current government a council in which the majority of the Afghan peopel weren´t representated and then wonders why it all oes down in war?

I don´t have any animosity towards the average people of the US. I have a deep animosity against the current political course.
When somenoe claims to support freedom and democracy, while supporting dictators, I can´t really believe him.
So it is an established fact, that US did support Saddam Hussein in his war against IRan after the Schah was ousted (Schah was backed by US). In this war for the first time since WW1 chemical weapons were employed by Iraq. US approved it. Now those same chemical weapons are threatening to be employed against US. Now suddenly Saddam Hussein is the vile dictotator and oppressor.
What message I see here?
It is ok to employ weapons of mass destruction as long as it doesn´t threaten us. If they perchance will threaten us you better get rid of them or we will invade.

You forget, that nowadays US still backs a war criminal as head of state.

As a side note, US did still not sign the treaty for banning land mines.

I fully understand, why the US government is concerned about Hussein and wants to get rid of him. They now fear the monster they made. But I deeply detest the current propaganda made by US government, that Hussein is so evil and they only want to act in interst of the whole world, and generally want to make the whole world a better place.
If it is the intent of the US, then the official government must stop suporting war criminals, stop using land mines, stop developing chemical and biological weapons before the enforce others to do so and genreally get more consistency into their foreign policy. A good start would even be actually honoring existing treaties with various nations and organisations.

Besides, the whole weapons inspection thing is a huge farce. Especialyl where biological weapons are concerned. For keeping the germs you only need (for assurance) three or four cultures. If you want to play it safe, make it ten. Let´s assume, that there are 10 different germs with 5 subspecies. That makes 500 cultures. Each culture can contain on a petri scale up to about 110e8 or more germs. A petri scale is roughly the size of a hand in diameter and a height of about 3 centimeters. I consider it an insult to anyone´s intelligence, if ther eis somebody claiming that it is impossibel to hide them in a country like Iraq. For all we know, they coudl have been already smuggled out of the country and safely be stored in anybody´s fridge. (Well mor eliekly freezer)
Even in the badly equipped lab of my former school, I could breed warfare germs without problems once I had the actual cultures.
Please tell me then, waht sense does it make to search for warfare germs in Iraq?
 
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Morat

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&nbsp; Let's see...who is likely to end up ruling Iraq after Saddam Hussien leaves? Would it be a Democracy? Nope. Would it be...a fundamentalist Islamic sect very similiar to the Taliban? Yep.

&nbsp;&nbsp; And would this fundamentalist government be a friend of Osama Bin Laden, not an enemy? Yep.

&nbsp;&nbsp; So, now we have a choice: Install our own puppet dictator, or run the country ourselves for a generation or two. Which works for you?

&nbsp;
 
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Morat

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&nbsp; Depends on what you mean by "scared", Souljah.

&nbsp; I'm of the opinion that, if Bush gets his way and invades, he will make our lives far more dangerous than they were before. I'm of the opinion that, if Bush gets his way, far more of our soldiers will come back in bags from urban fighting than people expect. I'm of the opinion that, if Bush gets his way, we'll all find out a decade from now that none of the justifications Bush gave were even remotely valid.

&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm of the opinion that a whole bunch of men, women, and children are going to die, Souljah. Die for no other reason than cheap oil and a Middle East presence. And I'm of the opinion that, in doing so, we'll will ignite the Middle East into a firestorm, destroy the democratic and moderate influences already extant there...

&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm very much afraid, Souljah, that this course of action is short-sighted, foolish, and the price for it will be magnitudes higher than anyone wants to admit.
 
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It's a big issue, this 'just war' theory.
It was first proposed by the RC church in order to let Constantine's army become Christians.

I can never understand this idea of killing people who kill people to show that it is wrong to kill people.

What is the real value of life...money, possessions, status, fame?

I think that it perhaps needs to be that we treat each other the way we would like to be treated ourselves.
Take up the cross of the beggar, the sinner,the blind and see how it fits.
 
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The just war theory was not a mechanism to simply let his armies become Christian, lol. Constantine was a Christian before he was officially a Christian...heh, he had the cross on his shields and felt that every victory was God given.

By the way, the RCC does not endorse this war. They say that the attributes of it do not fufill those outlined in the just war theory.
 
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Originally posted by panterapat
Souljah-

"panterapat-

Would you have "remained" with Israel when they decided to kill Jesus? How about if they do something horrible to other people? Just wondering?"

We live in a different time. The fact remains that the Jewish crucifiction of Jesus brought about our salvation.

I stand with Israel because they are the chosen people of God. They were there in antiquity through Abraham and I believe they will be there in the end times. The beginning, middle (and I believe) the end of history has/will revolved around the Jews.

Catholism is the fulfillment of Judeism. They are our elder brothers. What we have in the Catholic Church has come through the Jewish people. We have a kinship with them.

Yes, they rejected Christ. But they have rejected God in the past and have been punished for it. The Babalonians(sp), Phillistines, Romans, Germans, Russians, Arabs, et. al. have all persecuted the Jews. Perhaps the Jews are objects of atonement for the world. However, when the Jews obeyed Gods commands, they were richly blest.

This whole situation in the Middle East is actually about the Jews right to live in peace. The Arabs want the Jews extinguished. The Jews want peace.

Do you recall the story of Abraham? Sarah couldn't have children so Abraham had a child with his slave-girl. Ishamel was born. Later an angel visited Abraham and Sarah and promised a child to them. Issaic(sp) was born. When Issaic was born, Ishamel was banished.

Ishamel is the lineage of Islam. Issaic is the lineage of Hebrew/Judeism. Since the banishment of Ishamel, there has been anomosity between Arab and Jew.

The conflicts we see today are the fruit of this anomosity. [That is my theory] The whole of history is turning back to its beginning. That is why I stick with Israel and that is why I fear that this conflict may turn into Armagadon.

In Christ who was a Jew: Patrick

I agree with you.&nbsp; There are those that claim that Israel tortures Palestineans.&nbsp; I don't know if that is true, but thats what prompted my questions.
 
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