invisible trousers
~*this post promotes non-nicene christianity*~
Heh, no, my question was 'What legitimate reason does Russia have to attack Israel', which was directed towards HisWordIsMySword.
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Are We In The Endtimes?
- Thread starter HisWordIsMySword
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You need to ask God this question. For it is in his Word as to Russia's attack on Israel.
I believe they will use the excuse of coming to the aid of Iran, but their motives are the same as the Arab nations and that is to destroy Israel completely.
Russia has a long past of abuse of the Jews within the confines of her borders. Russia has always sided with the Arabs against Israel in the United Nations. I believe her goal is one in the same as that of the Arabs and that is complete destruction of Israel.
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To say a man will not die is to say he has lived a life without sin.
I suggest you look up the word resurrected.
You misinterpret scripture. For it does not say any place we do not die in the flesh. Yet, Jesus did say, " He who believes in me, though he is dead, yet shall he live." And he was referring that though a man die in his flesh, he is not really dead if he believed, for the soul is not cast into the place known as death and hell, but goes to be with Jesus.
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You call or refer to the physical body like I said our resurrected body will be of the physical or corruptible type. I did not say we will have a physical body. I believe our physical bodies will be changed and we will have new bodies that are incorruptible. It will be a body that will last for all eternity.
Will those who are of the flesh be able to touch those who have been given an incorruptible body? I believe so. Just as the apostles were able to touch Jesus. I believe our bodies will be just as his. With the exception that his body bears the scars he endured for our transgressions. Thank you Lord Jesus.
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Paul says that there is ONLY one body. I believe it is that ONE body that is being spoken about when "resurrection" of the "dead in Christ" is talked about. It is that "body" that will rise...not bodies but body as in singlar or one".
Romans 12:5
so in Christ we who are many form one body , and each member belongs to all the others.
1 Corinthians 12:12
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body . So it is with Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:20
As it is, there are many parts, but one body .
Ephesians 2:16
and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body , and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 4:4
There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to one hope when you were called
Ephesians 4:25
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body .
Colossians 3:15
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
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If Christ has not yet returned, believers today do not die and go to be with Jesus. Jesus said (John 14:2ff)--
"I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME AGAIN and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
Jesus did go, but according to futurists, He has not yet COME AGAIN--therefore He has not yet received them
unto Himself and does not receive us unto Himself. We are in the same situation as those OT saints who waited
in Hades.
It is only BECAUSE Jesus came again that any can say that we die and go to be with Him. Futurists cannot have it both ways!
Parousia
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Evergreen48
Senior Member
HisWordIsMySword said:
Genesis 5: 24. "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
So we know that Enoch's standing to life again (resurrection) preceded the death of his flesh. We know this because we know that all flesh, including Enoch's, was created subject to transientness and uselessness (Rom. 8:20, John 6:63), and that "it is appointed unto men once to die" (Heb. 9:27)
HisWordIsMySword said:
Hebrews 11: 5. "By faith Enoch was transported that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had transported him: for before his transportation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
Flesh and blood cannot touch that which is spirit.
"That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit, is Spirit."
And never shall these two diverse 'bodies' be able to meet or have contact with one another, because one is a physical body, and the other is a spiritual body. Therefore, the body of Christ that was resurrected, and that flesh and blood was able to touch and to see, was still flesh and blood just as it was before it died.
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Will we still be fat and ugly and if not how are we going to be recognized by our loved ones?
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There is a natural body and a spiritual body and it is the spiritual body that will live. The natural body will return to dust.;
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You got it elman and the good news is we do not have to wait for our spiritual body we have it now as part members of the body of Christ.
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All I can say is wow. So I will cease to exist as an individual because I am a body part?
You miss it completely. We are one body in Christ. Have you never heard of the gifts of the spirit. Each child of God has a purpose give to them by God as a part of the body of Christ that brings spiritual growth to the entire body. We all depend on eachother and God supplies all our needs through the many parts of the spiritual body.
We are to complement eachother through Christ in aiding and causing spiritual growth by way of faith.
How you can believe the way you do leads me to questions concerning your foundation. Please do not take this wrong. Most today believe things that are not in accord with the Word of God and that is because they have gone from being led by the Holy Spirit to leading the Holy Spirit.
That is why I give the litmus test on John 3:5-7. This is the basis of the faith and if a person cannot get this right, the rest will be wrong.
http://www.christianforums.com/t3843902
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Resurrection
To be raised from the dead. When a man is born again, he passes from death unto life, for his soul has been delivered from hell. And the soul of a righteous man, a man who believes in Christ, though he dies in the flesh, his soul goes to be with Christ. And the body turns to dust or is asleep as refered to in some scripture.
And on the day of resurrection, the body that is asleep in the earth will be resurrected and be rejoined with the soul that came with Christ on the day of resurrection.
Pay special attention to verse 14. it says that those who sleep in Jesus God will bring with him on the day of resurrection.
1 Thess. 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
To be raised from the dead. When a man is born again, he passes from death unto life, for his soul has been delivered from hell. And the soul of a righteous man, a man who believes in Christ, though he dies in the flesh, his soul goes to be with Christ. And the body turns to dust or is asleep as refered to in some scripture.
And on the day of resurrection, the body that is asleep in the earth will be resurrected and be rejoined with the soul that came with Christ on the day of resurrection.
Pay special attention to verse 14. it says that those who sleep in Jesus God will bring with him on the day of resurrection.
1 Thess. 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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It's was true for the Old Covenant saints before the OC system vanished away in AD70.
Yes their souls were asleep and waiting to be resurrected into the body of Christ from the body of Moses. The Body of Moses is used in scripture to define the Old Testament Church. It is called the body of Moses.
Right after Jesus came in the clouds in the glory of the Father and executed judgment on Jerusalem and the OC system that rejected Him, the body of Moses was awaked and resurrected into the body of Christ.
The idea that there will some day be a resurrection of physically dead human corpses is so ingrained in the modern religious psyche that to question it is considered taboo by most. Yet I will do just that. It is my contention that the Biblical concept of the resurrection involves a spiritual raising of man out of sin-death, (i.e. separation from God caused by sin); a restoration of man to the presence of God.
In Genesis 2:15-17 God told man concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the day you eat thereof you will surely die. Man and woman ate of the fruit. Did they die that day? Amazingly, most people will say No! because Adam and Eve did not die physically after they ate the forbidden fruit. But this is not the whole story.
Death means separation, not annihilation. And Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden the day they ate the fruit. Thus, Adam and Eve died spiritually because they were cast out of the presence of God. If Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate then Satan told the truth and God lied! God said you will die in the day you eat, Satan said you will not surely die, Genesis 3:1ff. Who told the truth to Adam and Eve? Unless one can find Adam and Eve physically dead in Genesis 2-3, then the death they died was spiritual and not physical.
If we regain in Christ, in resurrection, what was lost in Adam, 1 Cor. 15:22, and if spiritual life, not physical, is what was lost, then physical resurrection is not what the Bible means by resurrection from the dead. Instead, the focus of Bible teaching about resurrection is the spiritual restoration of man from sin-death.
The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10f. Paul called the Old Testament the ministration of death because all it did was condemn; it could not justify, Romans 8:1-3. He spoke of his struggles under the Old Covenant; he spoke of his past death under it, and lamented Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:9-24.
Jesus death and resurrection was the power for the final removal of that law that brought death, Eph. 2. But that Old Law could not fully pass until it was all fulfilled, Matthew 5:17-18; and until the New Covenant law of life in Christ was completely established, Gal. 3:21-29. This meant that there was a time of transition between the Old Law and the New; a time when those coming out from that Old Law were coming into life. They were being raised into resurrection life as firstfruits of the coming perfection in Christ.
When that Old Covenant of Death was completely taken away, this is called the resurrection. This is what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:54-56. The resurrection would be when the Old Testament was fulfilled, vs. 54; it would be when the law, which was the strength of sin, was removed, vs. 56. More on all this later.
The modern concept of a physical resurrection of human bodies is not consistent with scripture. It makes physical death the focus of Gods threat in Eden, yet scripture denies this. The modern view denies the relationship of the Old Covenant to death and life spiritual life. It fails to take into consideration that man stands before God in relationship to Covenant. To live under a Ministration of Death was to be a body of death, Rom. 7:24; 8:8-10. To be delivered from that ministration of death was to be resurrected. This is the Biblical concept of resurrection.
The New Testament believers were dying to the Old Law as they were baptized into Christ, Romans 6-7. The Law itself was not dead they were dying to the Law; You have become dead to the law by the body of Christ Rom. 7:4; Christ is the end of the law to those who believe, Rom. 10:4. But the Law would pass when fulfilled and the Hebrew writer says it was at that time growing old and was ready to vanish away, Hebrews 8:13.
Resurrection is deliverance from sin; sin-death; read Ephesians 2:1. This happens by faith in response to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel 2 Tim. 1:10. Those who would know the life that will never end, John 8:51, must enter the power of Jesus death and resurrection to enjoy the salvation/resurrection purchased by Him. Jesus is the resurrection and the life. To have this life one must be in Christ through baptism for this is where one is joined to Christs death and resurrection.
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Here is the problem with your thinking. You think that the spiritual rebirth comes at the point of physical death. Yet, if a man is not reborn in his spirit before his soul leaves his body, he will find his soul in hell.
For a man must be reborn in his spirit before physical death occurs. Yet, this rebirth is not the same as the resurrection. You try to make rebirth the same as resurrection. And that is contrary to the Word of God.
When a man sins, his soul, spirit dies because of sin which comes by way of knowledge of the law. And if the man is not reborn in his spirit before he dies physical death, he will not see the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said a man must be born again. He was not referring to being born again in the flesh, but in the spirit.
To be born again, a man must be born once. This is spiritual. Two spiritual births.
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1 Thess. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It says that the dead in Christ will rise first. What do you suppose that means? Your interpretation is contrary to the Word of God.
It says the dead will raise first. Notice the Word rise. Where are they rising from? And exactly what is rising?
And who is it that is coming with Jesus in verse 13?
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You have totally missed my point and I never did say a man must died physically before he can be born of the Spirit.
The resurrection of the dead had to do with the Old Covenant saints being resurrected into Jesus Christ and the New Heaven and Earth in a post mortem state. We who have faith also live with them in the New Heaven and Earth even though we do not physically see them. That does not mean we cannot see them or Jesus in a Spirit form if God so chooses to reveal anything. I just wanted to make that clear.
I will attempt to show that the resurrection from the dead according to Romans 8:23 was a corporate one and not a personal one that we believers in Christ shall experience at post mortem.
1 Corinthians 10
Old Testament Examples
Do All to Gods Glory
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Here we have an example of two baptisms in the cloud and in the sea. I believe they foreshadowed water baptism by the sea and in the Holy Spirit by the cloud. They were baptized into Moses, which foreshadowed being baptized into Christ.
Romans 6:3,4 speaks of being resurrected from the dead spiritually and that could by faith experience resurrected life after water baptism. However after the Old Covenant system was destroyed in AD 70 all the Old Testament saints would join them in a corporate resurrection into the New Heaven and Earth with Jesus Christ reigning in His Kingdom that is without observation from the natural eye.
Romans 6
2Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Luke 17:20
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation ;
Romans 8
From Suffering to Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory, which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
The redemption of the body spoken of in Romans 8:23 was from the body of sin and death that the old covenant brought through the law then in AD 70 when the old system was destroyed the saints at that time were redeemed from the body of Moses into the glorified body of Jesus Christ.
This redemption from the body was a corporate redemption not a personal one. It was from the body of Moses of the Old Covenant into the resurrected body of Jesus Christ in which all true believers are a part of.
Jesus is now glorified in the true believers. This is what they hoped for and this is what we now are to look back to and know that we also have been redeemed from the body of sin and death.
1 Corinthians 10
3all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
In AD 70 when Jesus came in the clouds of Judgment against Jerusalem He used the heathen armies of the world through Rome the superpower nation at that time of the end, of the Old Covenant age. Just like in the times of Moses when their bodies were scattered in the wilderness, the nation of Israel was scattered into the earth as a results of the judgment Jesus foretold from the Book of Daniel in Luke 21:20-24
Luke 21
The Destruction of Jerusalem
(1)20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things, which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 10
6Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Now note above that it is very clear that where it says, upon whom the ends of the ages have come, it is clear that it was speaking to them and not us 2,000 years later.
In the Old Covenant they were baptized into Moses, but in the new we are baptized into Christ. The manifestation of the Sons of God occur when the Old system ended, at the then known world or age, when all the dead of the Old Covenant saints were resurrected from the body of Moses into the glorified body of Christ.
Body of Moses was in the old heaven and earth or age. After the old age ended in AD 70 the new age of the new heaven and earth began and the glorified body of Christ was the manifestation of the Sons of God of which all true believers are a part of today.
A child could understand this. It takes someone who has been taught from the traditional teachings of men to mess things up as what happened after AD 70. Before that the thought that Christ would return to the first century Christians was the main view and what they believed. The main problem today is that some people read the scriptures as if they are living in the first century. We have to read it as it was written to them back then and then we should look at history in the light of all scripture been fulfilled when the sign of the coming of the Lord appeared when Jerusalem and the Old Covenant age came to an end.
Because Jesus came as He said He would, as a thief in the night, He came and those who saw with the eyes of understanding knew what was going on. But man in his carnal state could not see this and therefore came about the futuristic view that is so dominate in the world today.
I challenge anyone today to be as part of a Gideons army and stand against the flow of traditional teaching and stand for the truth. How much better would the world be today if we did not have a majority hyper-futuristic view which denies that Jesus has been since AD 70 the anointed King of kings and Lord of lords. They still think Satan is the god of this world.
It is the nature of Christ coming in the clouds that was spiritual not physical as the Creedalist have insisted being the truth, that has been the source of division and great embarrassment to the body of Christ. What makes the creeds wrong is that timing has been missed and pasted off into a future that will never have a physical fulfillment as they expect no matter how hard they try to twist the scripture in their desperate attempt to prove Jesus a true prophet. Preterism has the right answers to prove Jesus has been faithful and has kept His word, but the interpretation of the Creeds only make Him out to look like He does not keep His word for they forever cast His promises into the future.
It has been in my observation that Preterist do not deny the creeds, just the timing and nature of the events that the early Church Fathers after the first century had missed not seeing that they already occurred in the spiritual realm. Further study on what preterist believe will open the eyes of understanding into what did take place in the first century and as expected,
God kept His word. We may not have all the answers but we have enough to convince the wise that when Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed in AD 70 that the rest of the things spoken of did have there fulfillment in and around that time.
Why did Jesus tell Thomas blessed are those who believe without seeing. How would that apply to people after Jesus never appeared physically again for almost 2000 years and counting?
2000 years is a very long time in bible prophetic events for something to happen. I strongly believe the mass majority of Christians have missed something very special throughout history and because the cat is out of the bag concerning this, Gods blessing will go to those who see the truth and the rest will be left behind to wander in their wilderness of doubt as a Neo- Thomasaean.
The question that remains in the heart of every Christian is: are we to make the creeds as a standard to condemn people as heretics though the creeds were written by carnal man who missed the nature of Christs coming many years later from a different generation apart from the first century Church or are we to believe in the grace of God to those who adhere to the words of Christ?
Mark 8
38For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.
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Manna, you claim that where it says Jesus said he will come as a thief in the night, if I understand you correctly, is referring to understanding the things of Christ. Not that of the resurrection? It is the devil who desires that men not believe in the resurrection, for he knows that Jesus is the resurrection.You have totally missed my point and I never did say a man must died physically before he can be born of the Spirit.
The resurrection of the dead had to do with the Old Covenant saints being resurrected into Jesus Christ and the New Heaven and Earth in a post mortem state. We who have faith also live with them in the New Heaven and Earth even though we do not physically see them. That does not mean we cannot see them or Jesus in a Spirit form if God so chooses to reveal anything. I just wanted to make that clear.
I will attempt to show that the resurrection from the dead according to Romans 8:23 was a corporate one and not a personal one that we believers in Christ shall experience at post mortem.
1 Corinthians 10
Old Testament Examples
Do All to Gods Glory
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Here we have an example of two baptisms in the cloud and in the sea. I believe they foreshadowed water baptism by the sea and in the Holy Spirit by the cloud. They were baptized into Moses, which foreshadowed being baptized into Christ.
Romans 6:3,4 speaks of being resurrected from the dead spiritually and that could by faith experience resurrected life after water baptism. However after the Old Covenant system was destroyed in AD 70 all the Old Testament saints would join them in a corporate resurrection into the New Heaven and Earth with Jesus Christ reigning in His Kingdom that is without observation from the natural eye.
Romans 6
2Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Luke 17:20
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation ;
Romans 8
From Suffering to Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory, which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
The redemption of the body spoken of in Romans 8:23 was from the body of sin and death that the old covenant brought through the law then in AD 70 when the old system was destroyed the saints at that time were redeemed from the body of Moses into the glorified body of Jesus Christ.
This redemption from the body was a corporate redemption not a personal one. It was from the body of Moses of the Old Covenant into the resurrected body of Jesus Christ in which all true believers are a part of.
Jesus is now glorified in the true believers. This is what they hoped for and this is what we now are to look back to and know that we also have been redeemed from the body of sin and death.
1 Corinthians 10
3all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
In AD 70 when Jesus came in the clouds of Judgment against Jerusalem He used the heathen armies of the world through Rome the superpower nation at that time of the end, of the Old Covenant age. Just like in the times of Moses when their bodies were scattered in the wilderness, the nation of Israel was scattered into the earth as a results of the judgment Jesus foretold from the Book of Daniel in Luke 21:20-24
Luke 21
The Destruction of Jerusalem
(1)20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things, which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 10
6Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Now note above that it is very clear that where it says, upon whom the ends of the ages have come, it is clear that it was speaking to them and not us 2,000 years later.
In the Old Covenant they were baptized into Moses, but in the new we are baptized into Christ. The manifestation of the Sons of God occur when the Old system ended, at the then known world or age, when all the dead of the Old Covenant saints were resurrected from the body of Moses into the glorified body of Christ.
Body of Moses was in the old heaven and earth or age. After the old age ended in AD 70 the new age of the new heaven and earth began and the glorified body of Christ was the manifestation of the Sons of God of which all true believers are a part of today.
A child could understand this. It takes someone who has been taught from the traditional teachings of men to mess things up as what happened after AD 70. Before that the thought that Christ would return to the first century Christians was the main view and what they believed. The main problem today is that some people read the scriptures as if they are living in the first century. We have to read it as it was written to them back then and then we should look at history in the light of all scripture been fulfilled when the sign of the coming of the Lord appeared when Jerusalem and the Old Covenant age came to an end.
Because Jesus came as He said He would, as a thief in the night, He came and those who saw with the eyes of understanding knew what was going on. But man in his carnal state could not see this and therefore came about the futuristic view that is so dominate in the world today.
I challenge anyone today to be as part of a Gideons army and stand against the flow of traditional teaching and stand for the truth. How much better would the world be today if we did not have a majority hyper-futuristic view which denies that Jesus has been since AD 70 the anointed King of kings and Lord of lords. They still think Satan is the god of this world.
It is the nature of Christ coming in the clouds that was spiritual not physical as the Creedalist have insisted being the truth, that has been the source of division and great embarrassment to the body of Christ. What makes the creeds wrong is that timing has been missed and pasted off into a future that will never have a physical fulfillment as they expect no matter how hard they try to twist the scripture in their desperate attempt to prove Jesus a true prophet. Preterism has the right answers to prove Jesus has been faithful and has kept His word, but the interpretation of the Creeds only make Him out to look like He does not keep His word for they forever cast His promises into the future.
It has been in my observation that Preterist do not deny the creeds, just the timing and nature of the events that the early Church Fathers after the first century had missed not seeing that they already occurred in the spiritual realm. Further study on what preterist believe will open the eyes of understanding into what did take place in the first century and as expected,
God kept His word. We may not have all the answers but we have enough to convince the wise that when Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed in AD 70 that the rest of the things spoken of did have there fulfillment in and around that time.
Why did Jesus tell Thomas blessed are those who believe without seeing. How would that apply to people after Jesus never appeared physically again for almost 2000 years and counting?
2000 years is a very long time in bible prophetic events for something to happen. I strongly believe the mass majority of Christians have missed something very special throughout history and because the cat is out of the bag concerning this, Gods blessing will go to those who see the truth and the rest will be left behind to wander in their wilderness of doubt as a Neo- Thomasaean.
The question that remains in the heart of every Christian is: are we to make the creeds as a standard to condemn people as heretics though the creeds were written by carnal man who missed the nature of Christs coming many years later from a different generation apart from the first century Church or are we to believe in the grace of God to those who adhere to the words of Christ?
Mark 8
38For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.
Is my understanding correct?
If it is, let us examine what Jesus says.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Thessalonians 5
King James Bible[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.[/FONT]King James Bible[/FONT]
Now, the message here is not referring to the coming salvation, for this message is to all who have been saved and will be saved. It is a warning to always be ready and not be as one of the virgins in Matt. 25 who let their lamps oil run out and they had no more in reserve.
It is a warning to not be as those who are the children of darkness, but be of the children of light. And to always be ready for the Lord comes as a thief in the night.
So we are not to be as those who scoff and say where is the time of his coming. For the love of many shall wax cold, thinking that his coming will not occur in their lifetime. So they think, I will go out and have a good time, and then when I lose my youth, my beauty, I will get back to the faith.
We live in a world where many claim they are believers with their mouths, but not with their hearts.
Many will be shocked to find themselves left behind. There will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Preterists like to point out that Jesus and the disciples stated that the kingdom was near and at hand. What they often ignore is that this same formula was used in the Old Testament in instances where the eventual fulfillment was a long way off.
A common response to these Biblical statements of the imminence of the kingdom in the first century is this: "Well, yes, the Bible said the kingdom was coming soon, but what you often ignore is that this same formula was used in the Old Testament in instances where the eventual fulfillment was a long way off.
Is there anything wrong with these statements? If God does not keep the WHEN part of his promises, he has not kept his promise! (Deuteronomy 18:21-22) The Bible has a standard of determining the validity of a prophet! We today need to be far more familiar with scripture.
Our point is that the Bible is not a book that used words normally meaning at hand to mean a long time! When God said something was NOT near, it really was not near! I shall fully demonstrate this below.
Here is a question to consider: if God is in the practice of saying something is imminent when in reality it may not transpire for centuries, why is there not one single Old Covenant prophecy of the kingdom that said it was "at hand?" Daniel said the kingdom would be established in the days of the Roman empire; he called it "the last days," 2:28.
In other words, God did not allow his prophets to say the kingdom was at hand until it was REALLY AT HAND! It would have been something less than honest if God had said the kingdom was imminent when it was really hundreds of years away!
It is one thing for God to promise something and not give any indication as to when he would fulfill the promise, for then man has no indication of when to expect fulfillment. It is an entirely different thing for God to indicate a time frame for fulfillment and not bring the promise to fulfillment in that indicated time frame! This involves a basic attribute of the nature of God.
In Numbers 24:17-18 Balaam the prophet made a prediction of Christ's coming: "I see him but not now, I behold him but not near." Notice he said Christ's coming was NOT NEAR; IT WAS NOT AT HAND. Why did he say this? Because Christ's coming was over 1400 years away, and 1400 years really is a long time! Here is a concrete example where God referred to a long time as just that.
This is an important question in light of the traditional interpretations of Revelation. Daniel was told to seal up his vision because the time for its fulfillment was a long time away--365 years. John was specifically told NOT TO SEAL UP HIS VISION BECAUSE WHAT HE SAW WAS AT HAND! John is told his vision, not part of his vision, was "at hand" and "must shortly come to pass!" Reader, did God call the 365 years for the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy a "long time" and call the fulfillment of Revelation, which most commentators say has not been fulfilled after 2000 years so far, "at hand?" To say the least, this would hardly be consistent!
Many do not realize the Bible gives an example of man attempting to change the meaning of time words used by God; and God's response.
In Ezekiel 7, God through Ezekiel said the Day of the Lord was at hand. The Day of the Lord in this context was when God used Babylon to punish Israel for her sin. This is the concept of the Day of the Lord; it is not an "end of time" idea. It is when God used a nation to punish another as it related to his chosen people.
In chapter 11 Israel responded to the threat of coming judgment. They insisted that although Ezekiel said it was at hand it was really not. It was time to build houses, not worry about judgment. One can almost hear some of those people: "Well, yes, Ezekiel has said the Day of the Lord is at hand, but after all, 'one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day,' Psalms 90:4"
When Israel "elasticized" God's words of imminence into relativity, ambiguity and meaning-less-ness, God responded. In Ezekiel 12:21, [Please, take the time to get your Bible and read it for yourself!] Adonai told Ezekiel to tell Israel that her days of changing the time for his predictions were over. He had said judgment was at hand; Israel said it was not at hand. Jehovah would not tolerate it.
Ezekiel was instructed to tell Israel that in that generation judgment would fall just as Jehovah had indicated when he said it was at hand. [Have you read those verses for yourself yet? If not, why not do it right now and see for yourself that what we are saying is true?] What we have then, is an example of man saying that while God had said something was imminent it really was not; it was for a long time off. We have God's response; when God said "at hand" he meant "at hand!" He did not mean hundreds or thousands of years; he meant "soon!"
Another example of man changing the meaning of God's time words is in Amos 6:3. God warned Israel the time had come for her to be judged, 8:2, Hosea 1:4. In spite of the warnings Israel "put far off the evil day." Isaiah 56:12 shows they were saying "tomorrow shall be as today." In spite of God's warning that judgment was at hand they insisted "All things continue as they were," . II Peter 3:3-4! They refused to believe God meant "near" when he said "at hand!" As a result God said "Woe" to them!
What is the practical difference between Israel of Old denying "at hand" meant "soon," and Bible students today who read the New Testament time statements and say they did not mean "soon?" What is the difference between those in Isaiah's day who denied the warnings of imminent judgment, saying life was going to go on as usual, and those today who read the time statements made in the first century and say the predicted events were not truly imminent? Those who deny the first century application of the at hand time statements of the New Testament are doing the same thing as the Israelites of Old--denying that "at hand" meant "soon!"
Upon what basis can one acknowledge that God condemned Israel for changing "at hand" into a "long time" and then think it is justifiable for modern man to do so when studying the New Testament? Israel of old apparently argued that time doesn't mean anything to God.
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