Question about Ephesians 4 v 11

mousy · Aug 7, 2002

Hello,

I'm new around here and am very pleased to have found such a lively and well used Christian Forum.

Anyway, there is something that I have been looking at recently and I'd like to know what others think.

BTW this post is probably not for cessationists.

In Ephesians 4 V 11, Paul gives a list of what are commonly refered to as "ministries" or "offices".

I have always been taught, and always believed, that there are five:

Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher.

However, I was reading a book by Wayne Grudem the other day and what he said made me think again.  He listed only four "offices":

Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor-Teacher.

In other words, the pastor and the teacher are combined into one.

Now, if you look at the Greek, it says that he gave "some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers."  Also, the NIV translation does NOT say:

"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, some to be pastors and some to be teachers."  In fact, it says:

"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors AND teachers."

To me, this strongly implies that "pastor" and "teacher" should be combined.

So, has anybody got any comments on this.  Do you think there are five ministries or four?

eldermike · Aug 7, 2002

Mousey,

I have a house church (actually a small group). I am an Elder in my home Church also. I have spent a little time studying this area. I will give you my opinion based upon what I have observed, (seen work) and studied.
I believe there are four, Three of which we have today. Remember, this is my opinion. The pastor is the "teaching Elder", leader of the Elders, head of the local church, and teacher of the Elders. We are all Evangelsit' but some are given a real gift in this area. I beleive the profetic gift is a teaching gift, an ability to rightly divide truth. I beleive that we have been given all the truth and a fairly simple set of instructions as to what to do with it.

Blessings

sola fide · Aug 7, 2002

I believe there is a serparation between teachers and pastors, that's why the phrase pastor/shepherd can be used. The pastor is the guardian of Christ's flock. A teacher does not have this responsibility, he simply has the call to teach.

Soli Deo gloria!

Andrew · Aug 8, 2002

I believe there are five but it is not really important to lose sleep over.

Elnaam · Aug 8, 2002

Originally posted by mousy
Hello,

I'm new around here and am very pleased to have found such a lively and well used Christian Forum.

Anyway, there is something that I have been looking at recently and I'd like to know what others think.

BTW this post is probably not for cessationists.

In Ephesians 4 V 11, Paul gives a list of what are commonly refered to as "ministries" or "offices".

I have always been taught, and always believed, that there are five:

Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher.

However, I was reading a book by Wayne Grudem the other day and what he said made me think again.  He listed only four "offices":

Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor-Teacher.

In other words, the pastor and the teacher are combined into one.

Now, if you look at the Greek, it says that he gave "some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers."  Also, the NIV translation does NOT say:

"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, some to be pastors and some to be teachers."  In fact, it says:

"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors AND teachers."

To me, this strongly implies that "pastor" and "teacher" should be combined.

So, has anybody got any comments on this.  Do you think there are five ministries or four?

I have a Hebraic-roots Bible, the word pastor teacher is not hyphendated the verse reads some to be pastors and some to be teachers. The author of that book is incorrect . There is a five fold gift ministry.

Thunderchild · Aug 9, 2002

Eph 4:11

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

vs 11 in Greek - kai autos edoken tous men apostolous tous de prophetas tous de euaggelistas tous de poimenas kai didaskalous.

Hmmm. Despite appearances, it would seem that there are four. But be careful with this passage - it isn't saying that these are the only positions, but that these positions in combination have a primary goal - the perfecting of the saints.(whether 4 or 5 doesn't really affect the intent of the passage). Other positions assist in that goal, but it is not the immediate focus of those other positions.

Perhaps an examination of the other passages addressing this issue would be in order.

1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

And a couple of other passages that I don't have time to look up right now.

mousy · Aug 9, 2002

1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

And a couple of other passages that I don't have time to look up right now. [/B]

Thanks Thunderchild - good point - always best to look at other srcipture as well!

filosofer · Aug 9, 2002

The Greek syntax favors the understanding of four with pastor-teacher as one unit.

I'm not dogmatic about it, though - as long as you agree with me.

tericl2 · Aug 12, 2002

It really doesn't matter to me either way. I do believe that a pastor (as we think of pastor, ie, local church) should be a teacher. He is the shepherd of a flock. I guess in my own mind I think of those offices as being combined in the case of a pastor, but you can have a teacher that is not a pastor.

Ok, synopsis - Pastors should be both (pastor/teacher), teachers may not be called to be pastors though. Make sense? :scratch:

wdh · Aug 13, 2002

I believe in this passage Eph 4:11, that Paul was combining Pastor/Teacher. Looking at the phrase Pastor/Shepherd, a shepherd had to be able to teach his flock, if he could not teach them then they would go astray repeatedly. Not to say that all teachers are pastors, but that all pastors are teachers.....For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Bill

Elnaam · Aug 13, 2002

Originally posted by wdh
I believe in this passage Eph 4:11, that Paul was combining Pastor/Teacher. Looking at the phrase Pastor/Shepherd, a shepherd had to be able to teach his flock, if he could not teach them then they would go astray repeatedly. Not to say that all teachers are pastors, but that all pastors are teachers.....For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Bill

Hello Wdh, bless you in the name of the Lord Jesus! However my experience of 25 years as a Christian find that all pastors are teachers not really so. Most of the preach not teach. :angel:

wdh · Aug 13, 2002

Hi Elnaam,
I agree, pastors are preachers, but are they not also teachers? If not, who does a member of the church go to if they are having trouble understanding something, or if they need help dealing with something in thier lives. In my experience of being a pastor, i found myself teaching as often or more than preaching.
For example: If i preach a message on a subject, and someone in the congregation is having trouble in that particular area, then they come to me for guidance on how to deal with it. Or sometimes a member may not agree with me at first and then it becomes my responsibility to teach them what the Bible sais about it.
To sum it up, in my experience, I don't see how a pastor couldn't be a teacher.
Bill

Julie · Aug 13, 2002

I would say 5 different things and some could be combined.

JohnR7 · Aug 13, 2002

>> In Ephesians 4 V 11, Paul gives a list of what are commonly refered to as "ministries" or "offices".

There are nine ministries, nine gifts and nine fruits.

If you look in 1 Cor. 12:28 and join that together with what Paul writes in Ephesians, there are actually 9 ministries.

apostles; prophets; evangelists; pastors; teachers; miracles; gifts of healings; adminstration; diversities of tongues;

Everyone will have at least one, and there are a few people who have all nine. Apostles are mostly called Bishops today. They are kind of a pastor to pastors.

People with "diversities of tongues" are usually called missionaries. 1 Cor. 12:7-11 lists nine gifts of the Spirit.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: [8] for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, [9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, [10] to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. [11] But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Then there are of course nine fruits of the Holy Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23  "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

 

Elnaam · Aug 13, 2002

Originally posted by wdh
Hi Elnaam,
I agree, pastors are preachers, but are they not also teachers? If not, who does a member of the church go to if they are having trouble understanding something, or if they need help dealing with something in thier lives. In my experience of being a pastor, i found myself teaching as often or more than preaching.
For example: If i preach a message on a subject, and someone in the congregation is having trouble in that particular area, then they come to me for guidance on how to deal with it. Or sometimes a member may not agree with me at first and then it becomes my responsibility to teach them what the Bible sais about it.
To sum it up, in my experience, I don't see how a pastor couldn't be a teacher.
Bill

Hi Bill, our church is set up alittle differently then our culture would have us believe a church should be, we have a mulitude of leadership so the pastor is not overloaded with work, goes along with captains of thousands capt of Hundreds you get the idea, yes :clap:

eldermike · Aug 13, 2002

In my humble opinion the NT church is made up of small groups each with a leader that is under an elder with all the elders under the Pastor. With all members encouraged to join a small group. Our church has more than 90% in a small group. This is where ministry takes place. We have groups that support family ministry, groups that are for families with small children, groups for singles and groups for teens. The Pastor can't teach all these groups as there are small groups meeting on every week night. The Sunday assembly is for worship and hearing from the pastor. I believe the reason this works so well is because is is a biblical model for church. This allows members with a teaching gift to use it.

Elnaam · Aug 14, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
In my humble opinion the NT church is made up of small groups each with a leader that is under an elder with all the elders under the Pastor. With all members encouraged to join a small group. Our church has more than 90% in a small group. This is where ministry takes place. We have groups that support family ministry, groups that are for families with small children, groups for singles and groups for teens. The Pastor can't teach all these groups as there are small groups meeting on every week night. The Sunday assembly is for worship and hearing from the pastor. I believe the reason this works so well is because is is a biblical model for church. This allows members with a teaching gift to use it.

Yes ! A cell church prehaps? Our vision of Church matchs up Praise the Lord :hug:

eldermike · Aug 14, 2002

Cell church is correct. I lead one of the cells. It's like a little house church. We also have people from outside our church attend small groups. Our group has grown by way of people in the group inviting people they know. It takes time before they show up on Sunday morning but most eventually do.

Redeemed1 · Aug 14, 2002

We have much the same kind of church. We refer to the cells as house fellowships. We also have plural leadership...a head pastor and 3 associate pastors (and their wives)

wdh · Aug 14, 2002

I am not saying that the pastor does all of the teaching. But even in a church that has many different cells, who does the elders,captains, or associate pastors turn to if they have a question, is it not the pastor? The pastor may not teach each individual, but he must be able to teach at some level. If a pastor can not teach, how can God hold him responsible for what is taught? As the shepherd of the flock, he is resposible for the whole flock. One sheep can lead the entire flock over the edge of a cliff, just because it was one of the sheep that led them there it doesn't relieve the shepherd of the responsibility. So he must be able to teach the leaders of the flock.
Bill

Question about Ephesians 4 v 11

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