From another Thread: Spiritually Reconciled

gentlefire · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
So, umm.. what do you do when you are sick then?

If it's not God's will for you to be healed, why bother going against His will and use medicine? Is the doctor greater?

I trust that God allowed it for a reason and that He is bigger, wiser, more powerful than me so I also trust in that, who am I to question what God allows in my life, it is my 'job' to trust Him regardless, to be thankful for the blessings and challenges He places in my life to grow me in Him. I have been sick many times and God has healed me through doctors and has not healed me through doctors.
your second question is where we differ, that God can heal but is it always His will to heal in this lifetime?

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
Predestination is man's doctrine also .

Please go back and re-read - I edited my intial post, but you posted too quickly.

Jesus was only asked one time if it was His will to heal and He gave the answer.

Please show me where anyone came to Jesus, asked for healing and He showed that He wasn't willing.

Is physical healing guaranteed before our death (its not a trick question)?

Jesus have denied some healing during His three year ministry.

I am willing but God says "no" because "I have a better plan for my glory, NOT your glory". God always answer my prayer. ALWAYS. Do I like some of His answers? Nope just like I didn't like my parents' answers when I was a kid. God does promise that He will answer prayers but His answers can vary and often we missed His true answers. Mature Christians will not be discouraged for a "no" answer because it is more than likely that the answer is delayed because of His plans. The cause of failure is not failure itself but rather, other reasons why God chose to wait or look for grace that He have provided or any other answers He already gave that we may be over-looking. God does answer in a different way. The answer may not be the one you like or accept but God will give it to you anyway. Often He will give the promised compensating grace (Sufficient of Grace). Humility is putting God first in our prayers while pride is putting God last in our prayers. In Matthew 6:9-13 deals with the first half focusing on God, His will and plans before coming to our personal petitions. God does not always say yes to every prayer even though we expect Him to do so. We are not to have faith in prayer but rather have faith in God and His character. We have to understand that God may be delaying the answers because He has something better for us than what we have asked (John 11:1-6; Luke 5:1-16; Luke 8:40-56). Also keep in mind that God may be witholding what we ask in order to do special work that He have placed us according to His plan and will (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). Remember, God knows before you ask because He is ALMIGHTY God. Romans 8:26 says that "The Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for". The Holy Spirit will help us know what we pray for. I noticed when people pray, its from the flesh's desires more than spiritual desires.

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
So, umm.. what do you do when you are sick then?

If it's not God's will for you to be healed, why bother going against His will and use medicine? Is the doctor greater?

I was born deaf and I have other disability. When I was healthy physically, I had learned nothing except my deafness which is not an illness but rather a disability. Looking back. I was very healthy until I was diagnosed with MS a few years ago. I will not reject what God have provided through great people who came up with medicines to help us. There were number of Christians in the Bible who were sick (i.e. 2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.) 1 Timothy 5:23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. Trusting God is important when you are sick but at the same time, use God's people who have spiritual gifts (talents) to help others.

hislegacy · Nov 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Jesus have denied some healing during His three year ministry.

Not one of the scriptures you posted supports the underlined statement. Please give chapter and verse where Jesus deinied someone their healing during His three year ministry.

If you cannot provide this than you must retract it.

hislegacy · Nov 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Is physical healing guaranteed before our death (its not a trick question)?

Is forgiveness of sins after Salvation guarenteed before our death?

hislegacy · Nov 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
I was born deaf and I have other disability. When I was healthy physically, I had learned nothing except my deafness which is not an illness but rather a disability. Looking back. I was very healthy until I was diagnosed with MS a few years ago. I will not reject what God have provided through great people who came up with medicines to help us. There were number of Christians in the Bible who were sick (i.e. 2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.) 1 Timothy 5:23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. Trusting God is important when you are sick but at the same time, use God's people who have spiritual gifts (talents) to help others.

Anything indicating that they stayed sicK? Anything saying they died of the sickness?
Anything saying that they were NOT healed?

No there isn't. There's nothing in Scripture saying that we would neve face a sickness.

BTW - My father was in 3rd stage MS - suffered with it for 15 years, med's the whole shot. He was healed instantly when he gave his life to Christ.

and BTW - yes it's doctor confirmed.

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
Not one of the scriptures you posted supports the underlined statement. Please give chapter and verse where Jesus deinied someone their healing during His three year ministry.

If you cannot provide this than you must retract it.

In John 6:14-15 After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world." Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself. Why? They WANT miracles and they want them NOW. Then the NEXT day, in John 6:24 says "Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus." Why? John 6:34 "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread." In John 6:60 "On hearing it, many of his disciples said, 'This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?' " Gee I wondered why? John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. Again, I wondered why? Jesus said: Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. Does a disciple rely on money to do their ministry? NO. Is money useful in ministries. YES. What? No and Yes? What does that mean? God wanted us to rely on His eternal powers more than His temporal powers. But again, thrill seekers are looking for miracles and healings. Sounds like to me that this is very superficial searching for God rather than deeper searching for God from the heart.

hislegacy · Nov 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
In John 6:14-15 After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world." Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself. Why? They WANT miracles and they want them NOW. Then the NEXT day, in John 6:24 says "Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus." Why? John 6:34 "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread." In John 6:60 "On hearing it, many of his disciples said, 'This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?' " Gee I wondered why? John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. Again, I wondered why? Jesus said: Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. Does a disciple rely on money to do their ministry? NO. Is money useful in ministries. YES. What? No and Yes? What does that mean? God wanted us to rely on His eternal powers more than His temporal powers. But again, thrill seekers are looking for miracles and healings. Sounds like to me that this is very superficial searching for God rather than deeper searching for God from the heart.

Again a great assumption made - but there is NOTHING in these verses saying someone came to Jesus for healing and Jesus denied him/her.

Care to try again or retract the error?

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
Is forgiveness of sins after Salvation guarenteed before our death?

Remember when Jesus asked, "Which is more difficult, to heal disease or forgive sin?" (Mk. 2:9)?

Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. God's Grace and Gift: Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Jesus Christ is our all in all. We need but trust Him and He will take care of the rest. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved (Romans 10:8b-10). The heart believes and the mouth confesses. Both are necessary to salvation (of course to some healing). Faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit, without the Holy Spirit, you can't have faith and without the Holy Spirit, you can't be spiritual. If you don't have faith, then you don't have the Holy Spirit. Faith don't come before the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit comes before Faith. Paul was a Pharisee and he wrote in Romans 16:18 "For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people." Paul knew as a Pharisee what Jesus was talking about when He rebuked other Pharisees about faith. As a disciple, my Christian faith should be inward, not outward because the Bible teaches that faith is of the spirit and not of the flesh. Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

Ephesians 1:6-7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

Colossians 1:13-15
For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
Again a great assumption made - but there is NOTHING in these verses saying someone came to Jesus for healing and Jesus denied him/her.

Care to try again or retract the error?

That was one example. People chased Jesus and Jesus moved away from them because He knew their motives.

James 4:3
When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives,

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
Anything indicating that they stayed sicK? Anything saying they died of the sickness?
Anything saying that they were NOT healed?

No there isn't. There's nothing in Scripture saying that we would neve face a sickness.

BTW - My father was in 3rd stage MS - suffered with it for 15 years, med's the whole shot. He was healed instantly when he gave his life to Christ.

and BTW - yes it's doctor confirmed.

Then does that mean people you know that have been healed really means that those who are healed are saved and truly are Christians and those who are not healed are either refusing to accept or not Christians?

Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. Hebrews 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Then we are to continue in faith: Acts 14:22 'strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said.' Colossians 1:22-23 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

hislegacy · Nov 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Then does that mean people you know that have been healed really means that those who are healed are saved and truly are Christians and those who are not healed are either refusing to accept or not Christians?

No - people who are physically healed - are physically healed.

Salvation is

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

There are numbers of people who are healed in the Scriptures who were not saved. And there were numbers who were.

Healing is designed as a sign for those who do not believe and a help for those who do.

For the church there's the command in James

James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

And for the sinner there's numerous examples like:

Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.

Notice they didn't come to preach, but to pray.

2 And a certain man lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; 3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. 4 And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, “Look at us.” 5 So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them.

Notice the man wasn't in "faith" he was begging money and expected to receive "something"

6 Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.” 7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them—walking, leaping, and praising God.

Notice not only did Peter not ask if it was God's will - he didn't even pray for the man.

9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God. 10 Then they knew that it was he who sat begging alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple; and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

Notice that God was glorified - not in the sickness, but in the healing.

11 Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon’s, greatly amazed.

Notice the healing gave them the opportunity to witness...

12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

I am still patiently waiting for proof or retraction of your statement.

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
No - people who are physically healed - are physically healed.

Salvation is

There are numbers of people who are healed in the Scriptures who were not saved. And there were numbers who were.

Healing is designed as a sign for those who do not believe and a help for those who do.

For the church there's the command in James

And for the sinner there's numerous examples like:

I am still patiently waiting for proof or retraction of your statement.

Therefore, I can summarized your statement that physical healing is a sign of salvation, just as those believes "tongues" is a sign of salvation?

hislegacy · Nov 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Therefore, I can summarized your statement that physical healing is a sign of salvation, just as those believes "tongues" is a sign of salvation?

No - that would be an incorrect assumption on your part - I've not spoken of tongues.

You are also ignoring the second part.

Did you miss the bolded part of this sentence?

Healing is designed as a sign for those who do not believe and a help for those who do.

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
No - that would be an incorrect assumption on your part - I've not spoken of tongues.

You are also ignoring the second part.

Did you miss the bolded part of this sentence?

Healing is designed as a sign for those who do not believe and a help for those who do.

Is that scriptural ?

hislegacy · Nov 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Jesus have denied some healing during His three year ministry.

Why are you not offering proof of this?

I'm just asking of ONE example of someone coming to Jesus for healing and Jesus saying NO.

Do you plan on answering this or continuing to ignore my repeated requests?

hislegacy · Nov 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Is that scriptural ?

Um.... Did you not read the scripture I posted right below it as support?

Is James 5 not scriptural?

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
Why are you not offering proof of this?

I'm just asking of ONE example of someone coming to Jesus for healing and Jesus saying NO.

Do you plan on answering this or continuing to ignore my repeated requests?

I did and you rejected that. What can I say when you reject. Jesus healed EVERYONE according to His will. In the Bible, recorded that Jesus healed everyone who approached Him and there have been times that Jesus retreated.

hislegacy · Nov 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
I did and you rejected that. What can I say when you reject. Jesus healed EVERYONE according to His will. In the Bible, recorded that Jesus healed everyone who approached Him and there have been times that Jesus retreated.

The times Jesus retreated were for prayer or saftey there is NOT ONE TIME in His three year ministry where Jesus denied healing to someone who asked Him.

A person cannot be honest and deny that fact.

You said Jesus denied some healing - Him not being present Jesus wasn't available - that's a whole lot different than Him dening.

Care to try again?

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Balance said:
Um.... Did you not read the scripture I posted right below it as support?

Is James 5 not scriptural?

Somehow I knew you were going to use James 5. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." This has to do when a person got sick at the time of sinning. I was sick before I was born like John 9, the blind man. He hadnt done anything. They said, Who sinned, this man or his parents? He said, Nobody. But for the glory of God, he's blind. So, dont assume that every time someones sick, and they dont get well, theyre evil, and havent confessed it.

Therefore, in James 5, the assumption here is that his sickness is the result of what? Sin. Which lead to sickness as the result of sin, it is a chastening. when the sin has been recognized and confessed, and the chastening has had its remedial effect, then the chastening is sufficient, right? If youve learned the lesson. And, at that point, when the sin is confessed and the sin is dealt with, if the illness is due to a sin and a chastening, once that sin is dealt with, and the chastening is accepted, and the confession is made, the sin is removed and, at that point, I think the affliction can be removed, too. I really think that thats probably the best way to interpret this difficult passage. Because, you see, it says "...the prayer of faith shall save the sick." To me, does every prayer of faith save every sick person? No.

From another Thread: Spiritually Reconciled

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