UR verses are not taken out of context its the only view that is not out of context

[Jeff Saunders]

PMFBI but I would like to refer to an analogy.

"A person decided to take an ocean voyage. He saved his money until he could afford the least expensive ticket. When he boarded the ship he carried as much food as he could. He ate sparingly but soon ran out of food. He waited as long as he could but finally went to the dining room and told the person in charge that he would work for food. The person in charge asked to see his ticket. He looked at his ticket and said "This ticket entitles you to eat at every meal."​

If you are intellectually honest there are passages that are at odds with each other and when that is the case and we must chose a meaning we will chose the meaning that best fits how we see God. For example Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. : this seems to be at odds with God sending most people to an eternal hell . If you view God as an angry God that must be appeased then you try to explain away Rom 11:32 and make up things, like if you think mercy for all means Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for then you are reading that out of context , or all doesn't mean all , or something. I see God as a loving Father who is even more loving than man and he would never torcher his creation forever , so I use the translation of the word eternal in the English language as of the age or age enduring making what we call hell a limited duration. There are a lot of verses like this and we will interpret them according to what we believe about God and will back up our ideas with like minded books and material . I choose to follow those who have gone before me that see God as a loving Father . I like this quote : " If the God you believe in commands us to love and bless our enemies unconditionally but then turns around and tortures his enemies for all of eternity. you don't believe in the crucified Christ ( the logos expressed) who forgives his persecutors while hanging on a tree, you believe in a narcissistic mythological pagan deity who resides on Mount Olympus "

 

[Der Alte]

Why should I bother showing you scripture , you have been shown over and over and all you can say its out of context again I ask you show me one scripture I put in this topic that is out of context and why you believe it should not say what it says . Jesus himself said " If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" I know you don't like the word all but talk to God He said it not me . Look up the Greek word for draw , its to drag like a fishing net dragging all in. So I will ask you again show me what is taken out of context.

"Context" is not limited to the verses immediately adjacent to a particular verse but all of scripture. Does all mankind willingly turn to Jesus, in this lifetime? Or does Jesus, have to forcibly drag some to Himself? Which is it? You can't have it both ways! When Jesus was literally lifted up, i.e. crucified, how many of the disobedient Jews were "dragged" to Him? When exactly does that happen, that Jesus forcibly drags all disobedient to Himself? Is the false UR misrepresentation of John 12:32 supported by any other vs. in the entire Bible?

 

[Der Alte]

Like i said before you are making the same mistake the Jews made, I can imagine the disciples being told the same argument that you make, I am sure the pharisee told them the same thing , look at all the scripture and scrolls and experts of the law they know what scripture says how could a bunch of backwater fisherman tell the learned crowd that they were wrong. But what did Jesus say you don't know the Father and you don't know me, I am the savior of the world and you are not following Gods heart, then they killed Jesus and later all but John died at their hands. They looked to the religious rulers just like you are doing and told them that Jesus being God and savior of the world is blasphemy and you are following in the same footsteps as they did. Do you think you know better than the religious leaders of the Jews, they knew the scriptures better than you or me but they did not understand what God was doing and you are doing the same thing. I think I am in good company being told that I am not following
Augustine theology ,you can stay in it if you want but I will not .

Same ol,' lame ol,' meaningless one size fits all copout objection, "Augustine this that or the other." Nothing you said in this post can be directly attributed to me or anything I said. Please show me one thing, 2 or more would be better, which can be directly attributed to Augustine or anything/anyone else other than scripture? You can't do it because I back up everything from scripture not the writings of anyone, including Augustine. Now you tell me will all mankind somehow, suddenly on their own start believing in and following Jesus or will Jesus have to forcibly have to drag many to Himself, John 12:32?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"Context" is not limited to the verses immediately adjacent to a particular verse but all of scripture. Does all mankind willingly turn to Jesus, in this lifetime? Or does Jesus, have to forcibly drag some to Himself? Which is it? You can't have it both ways! When Jesus was literally lifted up, i.e. crucified, how many of the disobedient Jews were "dragged" to Him? When exactly does that happen, that Jesus forcibly drags all disobedient to Himself? Is the false UR misrepresentation of John 12:32 supported by any other vs. in the entire Bible?

I have seen you get on people that you don't read your posts but do you do the same thing? I have never once said that all will turn to Jesus in this life time, very few will follow Jesus in this life you know the whole narrow road thing , most will go to the Lake of Fire Matt 5:26 and they will not get out till the last penny is paid. Mal3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire , like the fullers soap. You say that I have misrepresented Johm 12:32 tell me what it really means then.

 

[Der Alte]

I have seen you get on people that you don't read your posts but do you do the same thing? I have never once said that all will turn to Jesus in this life time, very few will follow Jesus in this life you know the whole narrow road thing , most will go to the Lake of Fire Matt 5:26 and they will not get out till the last penny is paid. Mal3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire , like the fullers soap. You say that I have misrepresented Johm 12:32 tell me what it really means then.

While you may not have made the statement that "all mankind will turn to Jesus" it is a common response by many UR-tes in this forum. This post is a good example of taking pieces of disparate verses cramming them together as if they formed one continuous narrative. The mention of "Fuller's fire" is one verse only in the O.T. and refers specifically to the nation of Israel. I know of no other vs, which applies "Fuller's fire" to all mankind and certainly not the lake of fire. The fire in Sodom and Gomorrah was definitely not like refiner's fire or fullers soap. Since nobody takes anything to the grave, where do those in the grave acquire that last penny? They don't receive a salary for their time in the LOF. Also there will be no bodies in the grave standing when Jesus appears in the world.
John 12:32 most certainly does NOT mean Jesus will forcibly drag all mankind to Himself, kicking and screaming, as it were. Here is your out-of-context proof text, "in context."

Malachi 3:2-4
(2) But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
(3) And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
(4) Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.​

Every mention of fire in the Bible does NOT mean it is "like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap."
As for context of John 12:32 compare that to Matthew 7:21-23. And please do not even think of trying to tell me what "it really means."

 

[Der Alte]

If you are intellectually honest there are passages that are at odds with each other and when that is the case and we must chose a meaning we will chose the meaning that best fits how we see God. For example Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. : this seems to be at odds with God sending most people to an eternal hell . If you view God as an angry God that must be appeased then you try to explain away Rom 11:32 and make up things, like if you think mercy for all means Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for then you are reading that out of context , or all doesn't mean all , or something. I see God as a loving Father who is even more loving than man and he would never torcher his creation forever , so I use the translation of the word eternal in the English language as of the age or age enduring making what we call hell a limited duration. There are a lot of verses like this and we will interpret them according to what we believe about God and will back up our ideas with like minded books and material . I choose to follow those who have gone before me that see God as a loving Father . I like this quote : " If the God you believe in commands us to love and bless our enemies unconditionally but then turns around and tortures his enemies for all of eternity. you don't believe in the crucified Christ ( the logos expressed) who forgives his persecutors while hanging on a tree, you believe in a narcissistic mythological pagan deity who resides on Mount Olympus "

Well you start off by insulting me but expect me to be cordial.

"Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. : this seems to be at odds with God sending most people to an eternal hell ."​

Find a Greek grammar and verify what I am about to say. Don't bother responding if all you do is tell me what some UR online wannabe "scholar" says. The single Greek word translated "might have mercy" is in the subjunctive mood which is the mood of possibility and potentiality. For that to be a done deal it would have been in the active indicative mood.
Of course, you translate "aionios," an adjective, as "age," a noun. Which is a grammatical impossibility. Jesus didn't!

John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

There is nothing logical, reasonable, or grammatical that can change any of this. "Aionios" cannot be "of" anything. An adjective cannot take the genitive case. Only nouns can be in the genitive case.

 

[Der Alte]

you keep making the same mistake over and over , I agree that after this mortal body dies many will hear those words , they must go to the Lake of Fire but that is not the end of the story , Jesus will still pursue those until they do the same thing all people must do bend the knee to Jesus till scripture is complete and then "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord" You really don't know the whole story, stop thinking that just because you pull a group of scriptures out of context and look at then like that's the end of the story . please show me how the verses I gave are out of context except for the idea that anything that goes against eternal torcher is out of context, that is a week argument.

You demand that I show you how the vss, you quoted are out-of-context when you quoted my post where I quoted Matthew 7:21-23 and all you do is say "you keep making the same mistake over and over." Here is the passage again. Please show me how it is out-of-context.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus NEVER said that all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven. Rather Jesus said.
“Not everyone who will enter into the kingdom of heaven – On that day, [Judgement day] many [NOT a few] will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we do many powerful deeds in your name?’ Then I [Jesus] will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not someday by and by.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You demand that I show you how the vss, you quoted are out-of-context when you quoted my post where I quoted Matthew 7:21-23 and all you do is say "you keep making the same mistake over and over." Here is the passage again. Please show me how it is out-of-context.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus NEVER said that all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven. Rather Jesus said.
“Not everyone who will enter into the kingdom of heaven – On that day, [Judgement day] many [NOT a few] will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we do many powerful deeds in your name?’ Then I [Jesus] will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not someday by and by.

I had a long answer for you but after much prayer I feel that the Holy Spirit is telling me to let it go. If you don’t know the Fathers heart then all the back and forth does no good. You don’t even understand the simplest things like the direct plain meaning of scripture that says directly “ it’s Gods will that none parish “ this is straight forward Gods will, until you understand the basic heart of God you will never understand what God is doing and will do throughout the ages. If you ever truly do a study of why the UR-ites believe what we do and want to have a discussion on why we believe what we do and not just blow off anything that you deem out of context, I would be glad to have that discussion but till then you have had more than enough scripture and reasons why we believe that Jesus is the savior of the world and not a potential savior, so I will leave you to your western tradition with all those like minded people you hold up so dear and will stop playing verse poker and always trying to raise your bet with more scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

I had a long answer for you but after much prayer I feel that the Holy Spirit is telling me to let it go. If you don’t know the Fathers heart then all the back and forth does no good. You don’t even understand the simplest things like the direct plain meaning of scripture that says directly “ it’s Gods will that none parish “ this is straight forward Gods will, until you understand the basic heart of God you will never understand what God is doing and will do throughout the ages. If you ever truly do a study of why the UR-ites believe what we do and want to have a discussion on why we believe what we do and not just blow off anything that you deem out of context, I would be glad to have that discussion but till then you have had more than enough scripture and reasons why we believe that Jesus is the savior of the world and not a potential savior, so I will leave you to your western tradition with all those like minded people you hold up so dear and will stop playing verse poker and always trying to raise your bet with more scripture.

More false accusations about what you think I know/don't know, think/don't think, understand/don't understand etc. It is in fact true that God does not desire that anyone should perish [not parish] but every person has the freedom to choose. It appears that Matthew 7:21-23 is beyond your ability to address. Here is another passage.

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.
(12) Moreover thou shalt speak unto them this word: Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Every bottle is filled with wine'; and when they shall say unto thee: 'Do we not know that every bottle is filled with wine?'
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

It was God's will that all of the house of Israel and Judah to cling to God like a girdle or belt clings to a man's waist but they would not listen and obey God. so God said "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them."
The only way this can be refuted is by one verse, 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, says that He will pity, spare, have compassion, and restore those He has destroyed.

 

[JulieB67]

it’s Gods will that none parish “ this is straight forward Gods will,

He's not willing anyone should perish. He takes no delight that the wicked should perish. But you left out an important part.

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

He wants all to come to repentance/change of heart. But if that hasn't happened before the final judgement, anyone not found in the book of life will suffer the second "death" which is the Lake of Fire. Christ calls it very specifically the second "death". Are you stating we should not believe him? Does he not mean death? If not why does he call it so?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

He's not willing anyone should perish. He takes no delight that the wicked should perish. But you left out an important part.

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

He wants all to come to repentance/change of heart. But if that hasn't happened before the final judgement, anyone not found in the book of life will suffer the second "death" which is the Lake of Fire. Christ calls it very specifically the second "death". Are you stating we should not believe him? Does he not mean death? If not why does he call it so?

Yes the Lake of Fire is the second death , but what dies? What does scripture say happens when our mortal body dies? we get a new unending body, that's everyone. Jesus said if we want to keep our life (soul) we must lose it, die to self, pick up our cross and follow him, share in his death, but if we try to keep or hold onto our life( soul) we will lose it. That is the second death the soul dies , all that those who have not followed Jesus have built or made of there life is gone, dead in the Lake of fire. Scripture no place says the spirit dies, it is unending . The Lake of Fire is Gods Holiness burning away all the sin sickness that has kept people from seeing Jesus for the Loving Savior he is and once that is removed Jesus's irresistible love will be clearly seen and after a time Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Then as in 1 Cor 15 the last enemy to be conquered is death and God will be all in all . If the Lake of Fire is never ending then death sin, sorrow , pain and misery never end , this would mean that Jesus did not conquer death or sin and for ever more God will have to listen to the pain and gnashing of teeth for the rest of time. Ask yourself if it pains God to see his creation suffer why did he create a world that would make him suffer for the rest of time, that doesn.t seem like something a all powerful God would do.

 

[JulieB67]

The Lake of Fire is Gods Holiness burning away all the sin sickness

I'm strictly a scripture girl, so where is the scripture for that? God refines us in our lifetimes. The Lake of fire has been prepared for the devil and his angels. It is called the second "death". If we take the Bible as a whole one achieves in the end, life or death. Destroy means destroy fully. And you are taking the very process of repentance out of our hands -to think differently. If the Lake of Fire does that anyway, how are we thinking differently? That doesn't make sense.

, but what dies?

The second death totally coincides with Christ's teaching in that both body and soul are destroyed (in the Greeky -fully) Which also coincides with the OT in that the wicked will be turned to ashes, stubble and so on. That's what a fire does. If one is destroyed fully, how does repentance (to think differently) come in if one has been wiped clean?

will be clearly seen

Again, that takes the process of thinking differently out of the equation if it's clearly seen.

Ask yourself if it pains God to see his creation suffer why did he create a world that would make him suffer for the rest of time, that doesn.t seem like something a all powerful God would do.

He didn't at first. He created a perfect world before Satan's downfall (when the sons of God and the morning stars sang together) This is the second go of it. But that's another huge topic all together.

 

[Der Alte]

He's not willing anyone should perish. He takes no delight that the wicked should perish. But you left out an important part.
II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
He wants all to come to repentance/change of heart. But if that hasn't happened before the final judgement, anyone not found in the book of life will suffer the second "death" which is the Lake of Fire. Christ calls it very specifically the second "death". Are you stating we should not believe him? Does he not mean death? If not why does he call it so?

God is not subject to the imperfect speculation of sinful man. God, NOT man, decides what is right, just, fair etc. Here is what God, himself, said about His will and man's disobedience.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Should anyone wish to try to dispute this please show me one vs., 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, says that He will "Have pity, spare, have mercy, on those He has destroyed in vs. 14.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes the Lake of Fire is the second death , but what dies? What does scripture say happens when our mortal body dies? we get a new unending body, that's everyone. Jesus said if we want to keep our life (soul) we must lose it, die to self, pick up our cross and follow him, share in his death, but if we try to keep or hold onto our life( soul) we will lose it. That is the second death the soul dies , all that those who have not followed Jesus have built or made of there life is gone, dead in the Lake of fire. Scripture no place says the spirit dies, it is unending . The Lake of Fire is Gods Holiness burning away all the sin sickness that has kept people from seeing Jesus for the Loving Savior he is and once that is removed Jesus's irresistible love will be clearly seen and after a time Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Then as in 1 Cor 15 the last enemy to be conquered is death and God will be all in all . If the Lake of Fire is never ending then death sin, sorrow , pain and misery never end , this would mean that Jesus did not conquer death or sin and for ever more God will have to listen to the pain and gnashing of teeth for the rest of time. Ask yourself if it pains God to see his creation suffer why did he create a world that would make him suffer for the rest of time, that doesn.t seem like something a all powerful God would do.

Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything by [mis]quoting selective verses out-of-context.
Observe!

Revelation 21:4-8​

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.​

(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.​

(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Vs. 4 "no more death", vs 5, "I make all things new." but 3 vss. later vs. 8, eight groups of the unrighteous are thrown into the LOF which is still called the second death.
Now let us turn quickly to the back of the book,

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Ten more vss. The End, No more death, No more salvation, only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still!"