In regards to baptism, it looks like we have come to an agreement that baptism is not a requirement for salvation (as you said only those who "believe" are saved), and the agreement is that baptism is proof of a good concience toward God (1 Peter 3:21).
Now we can move on to the next point...
"You really don't know how Jesus is Lord of one's life. And you can't have any relationship with God if
you haven't been reconciled to Him. "
You're judging my salvation. This is inappropriate because I have not asked you to judge me. God is my judge, not you. You can't possibly know if I have a "relationship" with God or not. You can only assume, and as far as a logical debate is concerned, that type of assumption will get you no where fast. I ask that you please refrain from it as it is a totally invalid defense to ignore what I am saying.
"I'm not saying this. The Bible does. Christ is the savior of the church (Eph. 5:23). Christ gave his life for the church (Eph. 5:25). Christ purchased the church with his blood "
So you're saying that in order for me to communicate to God directly, I have to go through the Church? I can't talk to God on my own? That's what personal relationship means, ed. To have a personal relationship with someone means you don't go through anyone else to make it happen, othewise it's not a personal relationship, but a contractural relationship with a middle guy.
"You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days."
Jesus died for the whole world, ed, not just the church (but he did die for it though too). This makes it possible for ANYONE to come to God through Jesus Christ, and not just those who are a member of a church.
This has gotta be the most incredible thing I ever see you post, ed. It totally destroys everything you are saying about being a member of the church to be saved.
Ed, let me ask you this: do you become a "believer" before you join the Church, or do you become a "believer" when you believe? You said earlier that those who believe are saved, so in effect you are saying that anyone who just simply believes is saved. You are negating your own statements that state you have to be a member of a church to be saved. First you believe, THEN you become a member.
"You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days."
It doesn't matter WHERE you find them, ed. It just matters that you believe. Just as you said. Stop contradicting yourself and adding things. Simply read what you are posting.
"My point is you cannot use Paul's letters to support your beliefs because Paul is not talking to you. He is talking to members of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days, the church where I am an individual member of."
So you're saying that it's illegal for me to use any of Paul's letters to defend what I believe? Isn't scripture given to all men to find out about God?
I find your opinion on this very...unfair. I can't even use scripture to prove answers to the very questions you post to me! :
Romans says that Jesus died for EVERYONE!!!!! ALL sinners includes EVERYONE!!!!! Stop saying that Jesus died only for the church!!!!
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J: All we have to do now is simply recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).
e:How can you say I'm unfamiliar with scripture when you haven't shown me any to support your belief?
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Accepting his work of atonement:
"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Romans 3:25
living as a daily sacrifice:
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." Romans 12:1
I can't believe you don't understand where I am comming from. Why ask for scripture when it's plainly here? Don't you read it for yourself, or do you use some doctrinal program to tell you how to read things?
"I can't stoop down to your level and say things from the top of my head."
Then you aren't a follower of Jesus in my opinion, because this is exactly what Jesus did, and what Paul did. To the Jews: he was a Jew. To the Gentiles: a Gentile. If you can not do this for me, then you have no obvious love for me. If you can not love me, then you do not know the unconditional love of God which he also had for the entire world when He sent His Son.
"I don't have any opinion on the issues that we are discussing. I only say things that the Bible teaches. The moment I let go of the word of God, we would both be blind men leading each other without any sense of where we are going."
I'm glad you're willing to limit yourself. But how about being a little more personal, and prove to me by some story in recent history that your faith is active and that God is with you?
"I haven't shunned peope for what they believe. As you can see, I'm still talking to you. The truth is, what you are sying ws what the Pharisees were saying during the time of Christ."
I consider calling people morons, and judging people's salvation and using that as an excuse not to talk to them is certainly a "shun." But we aren't here to debate this. Let's get back on topic. I look forward to your responses.
Now we can move on to the next point...
"You really don't know how Jesus is Lord of one's life. And you can't have any relationship with God if
you haven't been reconciled to Him. "
You're judging my salvation. This is inappropriate because I have not asked you to judge me. God is my judge, not you. You can't possibly know if I have a "relationship" with God or not. You can only assume, and as far as a logical debate is concerned, that type of assumption will get you no where fast. I ask that you please refrain from it as it is a totally invalid defense to ignore what I am saying.
"I'm not saying this. The Bible does. Christ is the savior of the church (Eph. 5:23). Christ gave his life for the church (Eph. 5:25). Christ purchased the church with his blood "
So you're saying that in order for me to communicate to God directly, I have to go through the Church? I can't talk to God on my own? That's what personal relationship means, ed. To have a personal relationship with someone means you don't go through anyone else to make it happen, othewise it's not a personal relationship, but a contractural relationship with a middle guy.
"You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days."
Jesus died for the whole world, ed, not just the church (but he did die for it though too). This makes it possible for ANYONE to come to God through Jesus Christ, and not just those who are a member of a church.
Turn your brand-new Bible to Acts chapter 16 verse 29 where the prison guard falls down trembling before Paul and Silas. In verse 30 he asks them what he should do to be saved. So they said to him (verse 31), " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
What proof does the Bible present to show that the prison guard and his household believed on the Lord Jesus Christ?
This has gotta be the most incredible thing I ever see you post, ed. It totally destroys everything you are saying about being a member of the church to be saved.
Ed, let me ask you this: do you become a "believer" before you join the Church, or do you become a "believer" when you believe? You said earlier that those who believe are saved, so in effect you are saying that anyone who just simply believes is saved. You are negating your own statements that state you have to be a member of a church to be saved. First you believe, THEN you become a member.
"You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days."
It doesn't matter WHERE you find them, ed. It just matters that you believe. Just as you said. Stop contradicting yourself and adding things. Simply read what you are posting.
"My point is you cannot use Paul's letters to support your beliefs because Paul is not talking to you. He is talking to members of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days, the church where I am an individual member of."
So you're saying that it's illegal for me to use any of Paul's letters to defend what I believe? Isn't scripture given to all men to find out about God?
I find your opinion on this very...unfair. I can't even use scripture to prove answers to the very questions you post to me! :
It doesn't matter WHO Paul is speaking to - I'm just reading what it says! I include myself in the "everyone"! To not do so would be to ignore the fact that I'm a human being!Ed: Your statement further reveals your ignorance of the truth. First, as long as there were living members of the church, the Church of Christ exists wherever they may be located. Second, God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). It was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead.
J: How can a church exist if its own believers don't believe what it is? All the disciples DESERTED Jesus and didn't believe. He had to rise from the dead to convince them otherwise. It doesn't matter if they were alive or not. Jesus was dying for you and me friend, not just them - and we didn't even exist - so you can't say that Jesus died for the living church because first that would exclude Jesus dying for us, and second, there was no living church. As far as I am concerned, the church didn't exist at all because NO ONE believed when Jesus died. No one. Romans plainly says that Jesus died for EVERYONE while we were YET sinners. Praise God for His grace in doing this for us.
Romans says that Jesus died for EVERYONE!!!!! ALL sinners includes EVERYONE!!!!! Stop saying that Jesus died only for the church!!!!
==================
J: All we have to do now is simply recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).
e:How can you say I'm unfamiliar with scripture when you haven't shown me any to support your belief?
===================
Accepting his work of atonement:
"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Romans 3:25
living as a daily sacrifice:
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." Romans 12:1
I can't believe you don't understand where I am comming from. Why ask for scripture when it's plainly here? Don't you read it for yourself, or do you use some doctrinal program to tell you how to read things?
"I can't stoop down to your level and say things from the top of my head."
Then you aren't a follower of Jesus in my opinion, because this is exactly what Jesus did, and what Paul did. To the Jews: he was a Jew. To the Gentiles: a Gentile. If you can not do this for me, then you have no obvious love for me. If you can not love me, then you do not know the unconditional love of God which he also had for the entire world when He sent His Son.
"I don't have any opinion on the issues that we are discussing. I only say things that the Bible teaches. The moment I let go of the word of God, we would both be blind men leading each other without any sense of where we are going."
I'm glad you're willing to limit yourself. But how about being a little more personal, and prove to me by some story in recent history that your faith is active and that God is with you?
"I haven't shunned peope for what they believe. As you can see, I'm still talking to you. The truth is, what you are sying ws what the Pharisees were saying during the time of Christ."
I consider calling people morons, and judging people's salvation and using that as an excuse not to talk to them is certainly a "shun." But we aren't here to debate this. Let's get back on topic. I look forward to your responses.
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