Catholics make pro-choice rally outside Vatican embassy in Washington DC

Michael0701 · Apr 26, 2004

Mason209 said:
I just hate all of the Bible-thumpers and fundies.

....ahhhh, but we love you :hug:

Mason209 · Apr 26, 2004

Michael0701 said:
....ahhhh, but we love you

ew....

Lillithspeak · Apr 26, 2004

Okay Borealis and Ms Shelby, what's your response to Cranberry's excellent post? Or are you bailing about now?

Outspoken · Apr 26, 2004

kermit said:
First off the RCC has no polical stance. Secondly the pro-life stance only applies to Catholics. Well, it applies to everyone, but so does the stance that Jesus is our savior. When last I check not every person in the US believes that.

To be Catholic, you must accept that abortion is wrong. I do, but I won't push my religious beliefs others. If someone wants to make a decision that jeapardized their soul, that's their decision. We live in a free society and, for better or for worse, abortion is (and always has been whether it was legal or not) part of that freedom.

1. first off, you're assumption is correct but you left out something very important. The Catholic church has no political stance, but has a very definiate stance on some political issues, such as abortion. Thus if a catholic is questioned he should say immediately, in line with the catholic church's teaching, say it is wrong, which is something most polititians will not due, thus the problem.

"If someone wants to make a decision that jeapardized their soul, that's their decision. "
That is opennly in conflict with scripture. Have you not read Christ's appeal to Peter to feed his sheep? Would you turn you back on a drowning person?

Miss Shelby · Apr 26, 2004

Lillithspeak said:
Okay Borealis and Ms Shelby, what's your response to Cranberry's excellent post? Or are you bailing about now?

I haven't even read it yet, I just returned to the thread.

Edited to add. Are you speaking about her quotes from the Didache? I'll stick to what the Catechism says. Catechism of the Catholic Church and courtesy of a post Jeffrey Lloyd made earlier.

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a personamong which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safeguarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing, the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.

Also in 1995 Pope John Paul II wrote an Encyclical about Human Life, called Evangelium Vitae. You can access it here:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p...ts/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

Michelle

Jonathan David · Apr 26, 2004

Hi Yitzchak :wave:

. I hope that you are doing well my friend.

Peace.

JD

Yitzchak · Apr 26, 2004

Jonathan David said:
Hi Yitzchak . I hope that you are doing well my friend.

Peace.

JD

Things are going well. I am glad Calgary got a few days off. I think their loss to detroit was due to so many overtime games in a row. triple overtime tends to wear a person out.

Quite the protest going on in Washington, eh? I wonder what the outcome of these sorts of things will be for the Catholic Church in the United States? It could end eventually with another Church split. Seems like more than just a little difference of opinion.

Stormy · Apr 26, 2004

I am fully behind my Church on this matter. I think it is a sad day when a church is hounded because of its stand to protect life.

JeffreyLloyd · Apr 26, 2004

Catholics may not be pro-choice. Any Catholic who supports abortion is living in serious mortal sin and going against the teachings of Christ and His Church.

Yitzchak · Apr 26, 2004

I am reminded of some of my mother's bits of wisdom. Mom's modern proverbs, I like to call them. First, the guy with the dead fetus. Call your mom and ask her what she thinks. I think she will recommend that you tone it down in the interests of good manners. If you have some older brothers, hopefully Mom will send them down to "talk" some sense into you. This is a no brainer in the lacking taste department.
Second, we all get to choose our causes which we give our efforts and resources to. My mother always said to me to choose carefully because we only get one go in this life. We can help orphans, deaf children, people with aids. Or we can choose to support causes such as this one. Each person has their own personal reasons for their choices. Myself, I don't want on my gravestone to be remembered for fighting for abortion rights. I don't emphathize with these folks at all but I do respect their right to choose ( no pun intended) how they use the life that their mother choose to give to them. :scratch:

Miss Shelby · Apr 26, 2004

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

The Didache

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.

Michelle

Jonathan David · Apr 26, 2004

Yitzchak said:
I am reminded of some of my mother's bits of wisdom. Mom's modern proverbs, I like to call them. First, the guy with the dead fetus. Call your mom and ask her what she thinks. I think she will recommend that you tone it down in the interests of good manners. If you have some older brothers, hopefully Mom will send them down to "talk" some sense into you. This is a no brainer in the lacking taste department.
Second, we all get to choose our causes which we give our efforts and resources to. My mother always said to me to choose carefully because we only get one go in this life. We can help orphans, deaf children, people with aids. Or we can choose to support causes such as this one. Each person has their own personal reasons for their choices. Myself, I don't want on my gravestone to be remembered for fighting for abortion rights. I don't emphathize with these folks at all but I do respect their right to choose ( no pun intended) how they use the life that their mother choose to give to them.

Thank you for being such a wonderful voice of reason. I know a woman who works tirelessly in the pro-life/anti-choice movement. She has been doing it for years now and while we disagree about issues and methods, I have to admire her committment and her passion. We both want to make the world a better place for everyone... we just see different ways of doing that. I imagine that she and I will never agree about choice... but I hope that we will always respect each other.

Peace.

JD

nyj · Apr 26, 2004

Nathan Poe said:
I'm tempted to ask "why not skip straight to excommunication?" but of course that's permanent.

Wrong. Please, before any of you spout off things about the Catholic Church, get your facts straight!

JPPT1974 · Apr 26, 2004

Well, how can people say that they are Christians but support abortion anyway fearing no harm no foul at all. Jesse Jackson, who is a reverand, was at the 1989 pro-choice rally. He is liberal but yet calls himself "A Christian". :scratch:

It is sad that there are many pro-choicers in the community and they make it sound like there are very, very, few anti-abortionist activists in the world. :sigh:

Cranberry · Apr 26, 2004

Miss Shelby said:
To believe fully that abortion is wrong and to not protect the rights of the unborn is a sin of omission for Catholics. That is the Church position.

Michelle

Do you believe Pope Gregory XIV is in hell?

Three years after Pope Sixtus V issued Effraenatam, making all abortions mortal sin and homicide, he died. His successor, Gregory XIV, felt Sixtuss stand was too harsh and was in conflict with penitential practices and theological views on ensoulment. He issued Sedes Apostolica, which advised church officials, "where no homicide or no animated fetus is involved, not to punish more strictly than the sacred canons or civil legislation does." (which meant it was okay to abort a male fetus younger than 40 days, or a female fetus younger than 80 days, the time at which it was then believed ensoulement happened) This papal pronouncement lasted until 1869.

nyj · Apr 26, 2004

Cranberry said:
Three years after Pope Sixtus V issued Effraenatam, making all abortions mortal sin and homicide, he died. His successor, Gregory XIV, felt Sixtuss stand was too harsh and was in conflict with penitential practices and theological views on ensoulment. He issued Sedes Apostolica, which advised church officials, "where no homicide or no animated fetus is involved, not to punish more strictly than the sacred canons or civil legislation does." (which meant it was okay to abort a male fetus younger than 40 days, or a female fetus younger than 80 days, the time at which it was then believed ensoulement happened) This papal pronouncement lasted until 1869.

Sedes Apostolica (which means Apostolic See) was written by Pope Leo II, who was writing about Papal Infallibility. Come on... if you're going to regurgitate stuff off the internet, get the facts straight at the very least!

xMinionX · Apr 26, 2004

kermit said:
I'm a pro-choice Catholic. I know that abortion is wrong and I will never do it. I also beleive that laws shouldn't be formed to fit my religious beliefs. I can't make the decision for someone else. I hope that they make the right choice to keep the child, but I feel that it should be left as a choice for each person.

I see no conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church in my stance.

Ohhh, if only more Catholics were like you. This is exactly how America should be. You totally have the right to feel exactly the way you want to, and say what you want to. But you don't have the right to force people to conform to your beliefs.

Reps to you, big time.

[edit] "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kermit again." Curses! Well, consider it a verbal pat on the back, then.

Miss Shelby · Apr 26, 2004

Cranberry said:
Do you believe Pope Gregory XIV is in hell?

What is this red herring for? When have I said anywhere in this thread or anywhere on this board that ANYONE is going to hell? To point out sin when it is a grave offense and emphasize the need for repentance is done so out of concern. I am not damning anyone to hell, and will never speculate on the state of anyone's final destination whether they are departed or still alive on earth.

Michelle

Milla · Apr 26, 2004

Caveat: I am anti-abortion. Abortion is evil in most cases. I can think of a few very extreme situations where I would say it was justified, but they are not many.

However, I also believe that abortion should not be made illegal. I believe that proactive measures should be taken to reduce the number of abortions as much as possible, such as proper education about biology, counselling about abortion alternatives, better adoption options, better help for women in need...the list goes on and on. I believe that abortion should be stopped. But I do not think it should be made illegal.

Why? One simple reason: Making it illegal will NOT STOP it.

Women will still go ahead with the procedure and doctors (and much worse, non-doctors) will still perform it. Making abortion illegal will simply make these women who are already in desperate situations into criminals as well, making it that much more difficult for them to get the help they need - many women who have abortions are in dangerous living conditions, or very poor, or simply very afraid and in a terrible mental place. The government should not force these women underground. It should offer alternatives.

So I'm sure you can see why I think it is wrong to deny Kerry and other pro-choice politicians communion on the basis of their political beliefs. The Church has a huge role to play in society, but this is not it. This will not change the politicians' minds, this will only galvanise opposition to anti-abortionists and also to the Catholic Church.

Servant of the Kingdom · Apr 26, 2004

I'm a pro-STEALING Catholic. I know that STEALING is wrong and I will never do it. I also beleive that laws shouldn't be formed to fit my religious beliefs. I can't make the decision for someone else. I hope that they make the right choice TO WORK FOR YOUR MONEY, but I feel that it should be left as a choice for each person.

I see no conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church in my stance.

Well I do see a conflict

Catholics make pro-choice rally outside Vatican embassy in Washington DC

Harley Ridin' Believer!!

Active Member

The Umbrella

Standing in the Gap

Legend

Revolutionary Dancer

יצחק

Senior Contributor

Ave Maria, Gratia plena!

יצחק

Legend

Revolutionary Dancer

Goodbye, my puppy

May 2024 Spring Fever!

Active Member

Goodbye, my puppy

Contributor

Legend

Well-Known Member

Here to serve God and you

Similar threads