What do you think about Ephraim?

hadara · Jul 20, 2006

The Bible has many verses that have to do with Ephraim. I am convinced, however, that many of them of symbolical, or allegorical.

Ephraim and Manessah were the sons of Joseph. Their mother was an Egyptian, a gentile. Technically, then, they are gentiles, not Jews. They were adopted into the family of Israel and were to be considered just as much the part of the children of Israel as any other members.
What is also interesting about this is that the Torah, then, was not only given to the Hebrews, but to Gentiles as well.

I would like you to read these verses about Ephraim. Study them. What do you think of these verses? All verses are from the NASB bible version.

Ezekiel 37:15-17
15The word of the LORD came again to me saying,

16"And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, 'For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions'; then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.' 17"Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.

Hosea 4:17
Ephraim is joined to idols; Let him alone.

Hosea 5:3
I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hidden from Me;For now, O Ephraim, you have played the harlot,Israel has defiled itself.

Hosea 5:9
Moreover, the pride of Israel testifies against him,And Israel and Ephraim stumble in their iniquity; Judah also has stumbled with them.

Hosea 5:11
Ephraim is oppressed, crushed in judgment, Because he was determined to follow man's command.

Hosea 5:12-15
Therefore I am like a moth to Ephraim
And like rottenness to the house of Judah.
13When Ephraim saw his sickness,
And Judah his wound,
Then Ephraim went to Assyria
And sent to King Jareb
But he is unable to heal you,
Or to cure you of your wound.
14For I will be like a lion to Ephraim
And like a young lion to the house of Judah
I, even I, will tear to pieces and go away,
I will carry away, and there will be none to deliver.

Hosea 6:4
What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?What shall I do with you, O Judah?For your loyalty is like a morning cloud And like the dew which goes away early.

Hosea 6:10
In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;Ephraim's harlotry is there, Israel has defiled itself.

Hosea 10:11
Ephraim is a trained heifer that loves to thresh,But I will come over her fair neck with a yoke;I will harness Ephraim, Judah will plow, Jacob will harrow for himself.

Hosea 11:3
Yet it is I who taught Ephraim to walk,I took them in My arms;But they did not know that I healed them.

Hosea 11:8
How can I give you up, O Ephraim?How can I surrender you, O Israel?How can I make you like Admah?How can I treat you like Zeboiim?My heart is turned over within Me,All My compassions are kindled.

Hosea 11:12
Ephraim surrounds Me with lies And the house of Israel with deceit;Judah is also unruly against God,Even against the Holy One who is faithful.

Hosea 12:8
And Ephraim said, "Surely I have become rich,I have found wealth for myself;In all my labors they will find in me No iniquity, which would be sin."

Hosea 14:8
O Ephraim, what more have I to do with idols?It is I who answer and look after you I am like a luxuriant cypress;From Me comes your fruit.

Zechariah 9:10-12
10I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
And the bow of war will be cut off
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.

Please take these verses to heart. I believe that Ephraim these verses is symbolic for Christians that have not kept Torah, and have gone to idols. One thing I see, for sure; God is very interested in the welfare of Ephraim and Judah.
Why does God constantly speak of Ephraim and Judah in the way that he does? This is important to us to consider and study.

Shalom, hadara

hadara · Jul 21, 2006

Shalom,

I find that this verse in particular

"And Ephraim said, "Surely I have become rich,I have found wealth for myself;In all my labors they will find in me No iniquity, which would be sin."

sounds much like Yeshua's rebuke to the Laodicean church.

I realize that nowadays the term "Jewish" can apply to any tribe - perhaps even Ephraim and Manesseh, the adopted children, but technically, a Jew is one from the tribe of Judah.

It is very interesting how God singles out Ephraim out of all the tribes, and often speaks of Ephraim and Judah collectively. My question is, why?

Could "Judah" symbolize the Torah keeping Jews of Judaism?

If Judah symbolizes those that will make up the remnant, or those in Judaism, and Ephraim symbolizes Christians, then it would make perfect sense for scripture to continually link the futures of these two peoples together. They either stand or fall together, and their history is linked to a glorious future.

hadara

dvd_holc · Jul 21, 2006

What does the name of Israel, Ephraim, and Judah mean? At the time of prophecies what were the tribes doing? Who were the wives of the 11?

hadara · Jul 21, 2006

dvd_holc said:
What does the name of Israel, Ephraim, and Judah mean? At the time of prophecies what were the tribes doing? Who were the wives of the 11?

Shalom,

Good questions. Well, Israel means "prince of God" or "may God reign," and Ephraim means double fruit, and Judah means praiser of God.

Basically, at the time of many of the prophecies, the tribes were not obeying God. They were listening to the teachings of men. But God also says that Judah and Ephraim will unite, and that Ephraim is His strength, and Judah His Law-giver. Despite all of God's rebukes, there is a deep love for both Ephraim and Judah.

As for the wives of Ephraim and Judah, I have no idea, or if that plays a part at all.

hadara

MattyJames · Jul 21, 2006

Greetings Hadara, interesting Post.

I've never viewed Ephraim and Manessah as Gentile. They were the "Sons of Joseph", not the "sons of Josephs wife". As was mentioned in another post, it is fair to say that biblically, it is the blood of the Father that determines a man/ womans nationality.

As I have always understood it: The Birthright was passed through Joseph, but the Sceptre was Judahs.(Ex 49:10.)

Therefore when Hosea was speaking of Ephraim he is speaking of "Israel" ie: the Northern Tribes, and when he was speaking of Judah...well that is kinda obvious

.

Then of course when there was the great dispersion, during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivity, the northern tribes were lost...I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted.

But as for the Idea that Ephraim is the Christian Church? I am your fist critic

.

IMHO I don't find any Christian Church in any of the Covenants (both old and new) or in any of the Prophecies or Promises. As far as i can see, they aren't there.

by two bobs worth.

Matt James

Sephania · Jul 21, 2006

Just a note as I keep seeing this taught errouneously, The southern kingdom was made of of more than Judah, that was the kingdoms, name but there was also the tribe of Benyamin there as well as Levites, and Kohanim. It is also mentioned in Yeshuas birth time of a woman of the Tribe of Ashur who was very close to the L-rD and was in the temple constantly praying and fasting, awaiting the salvation of Israel, and that meant her to.

MattyJames · Jul 22, 2006

Zayit said:
Just a note as I keep seeing this taught errouneously, The southern kingdom was made of of more than Judah, that was the kingdoms, name but there was also the tribe of Benyamin there as well as Levites, and Kohanim. It is also mentioned in Yeshuas birth time of a woman of the Tribe of Ashur who was very close to the L-rD and was in the temple constantly praying and fasting, awaiting the salvation of Israel, and that meant her to.

Thanks for clarifying Zayit. I should have made this more clear. :wave:

Matt James

Sephania · Jul 22, 2006

i'm sorry MJ, I wasn't meaning you specifically,

I see this a lot, especially with certian teachings.

Judah is not just Jews and Jews are not just from the tribe of Judah, many make that mistake.

hadara · Jul 22, 2006

MattyJames said:
Greetings Hadara, interesting Post.

I've never viewed Ephraim and Manessah as Gentile. They were the "Sons of Joseph", not the "sons of Josephs wife". As was mentioned in another post, it is fair to say that biblically, it is the blood of the Father that determines a man/ womans nationality.

If the blood of the father determines nationality,then Yeshua was not a Jew. But I suppose if one parent is gentile, and one is Jewish, then you have neither Jewish nor Gentile, but something else - or, they uniquely can be considered both Jew and Gentile.

As I have always understood it: The Birthright was passed through Joseph, but the Sceptre was Judahs.(Ex 49:10.)

Therefore when Hosea was speaking of Ephraim he is speaking of "Israel" ie: the Northern Tribes, and when he was speaking of Judah...well that is kinda obvious .

Then of course when there was the great dispersion, during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivity, the northern tribes were lost...I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted.

But as for the Idea that Ephraim is the Christian Church? I am your fist critic .

IMHO I don't find any Christian Church in any of the Covenants (both old and new) or in any of the Prophecies or Promises. As far as i can see, they aren't there.

by two bobs worth.

Matt James

Thanks, Matt. The Bible says, "Do not be ashamed of the name Christian" so even if we do not call it a "Christian church," we certainly could not it Judaism. What Yeshua wanted to re-start with His people was not a contination of Judaism, but rather a return to the proper Torah, but in a new light, by the Spirit, not the written code.

I suppose we could call this group "Christians," and obviously, Peter had no problems with that. So then, the converts to the Kingdom message were the new converts of the Christian assembly, or church.

And one can argue that Peter's books were not written in greek but in hebrew, but there is no evidence for that, and also, when you want to convert greeks, you do not give them a letter in hebrew! The 70 Jewish rabbis who put together the greek version of the OT were smart enough to realize that!

But thanks for your views
hadara

Sephania · Jul 22, 2006

They may have been called 'Christians' by others, but that is not what they called themselves. All first beleivers were Jewish, and they called themselves, Followers of THE WAY, something Yeshua called himself.

Acts 22:4 & Acts 24:14

Yeshua was not starting a new religion, just trying to properly define the one HE brought to Moshe thousand years before on Mt Sinai. He actually didn't make it easier as some teach, he made it harder.

Thou shalt not commit adultry

Thou shalt not even look at a woman with lust in your heart, for then you have alread commited adultry with her.

Not just, don't do it, but dont' even think about it.

MattyJames · Jul 23, 2006

hadara said:
If the blood of the father determines nationality,then Yeshua was not a Jew. But I suppose if one parent is gentile, and one is Jewish, then you have neither Jewish nor Gentile, but something else - or, they uniquely can be considered both Jew and Gentile.

Sorry, but I am confused?? Yeshuas heritage was taken through Joseph. How does this not make Him a Jew??

Thanks, Matt. The Bible says, "Do not be ashamed of the name Christian" so even if we do not call it a "Christian church," we certainly could not it Judaism. What Yeshua wanted to re-start with His people was not a contination of Judaism, but rather a return to the proper Torah, but in a new light, by the Spirit, not the written code.

I suppose we could call this group "Christians," and obviously, Peter had no problems with that. So then, the converts to the Kingdom message were the new converts of the Christian assembly, or church.

And one can argue that Peter's books were not written in greek but in hebrew, but there is no evidence for that, and also, when you want to convert greeks, you do not give them a letter in hebrew! The 70 Jewish rabbis who put together the greek version of the OT were smart enough to realize that!

But thanks for your views
hadara

Where does the Bible say "Do not be ashamed of the name christian"?? I wish not to be reiterating what Zayit has said, but the term "Christian" was started by the Greeks. Its not what they called themselves.

But despite all this, back to the original subject. How/ why do you think the verses in Hosea are talking about Jews and Christians?? This is a totally new idea/thought to me, and as I said in my original post...I'm sceptical. Wheres the Juice, give me something to chew over. Pls.

Just questioning,

Matt James

hadara · Jul 24, 2006

Hi Matt,

You had said ealier that heritage comes down through the line of the father, not the mother. If that is true, then through your logic, Yeshua is not of any human blood or race or tribe. So obviously, the mother plays just as an important part in making a person who they are as the father does. The mother of Ephraim and Manesseh play a part in their heritage. If the mother is Egyptian, and the father a hebrew, what have you? Not entirely Hebrew, not entirely Egyptian.

Kefa is the one that tells believers not to ashamed of the name "Christian."

1 Peter 4:16 NIV
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

Christian is a name worthy to be called. It is the world that has made it a name to be made fun of.

As for Ephraim and Judah being a symbolical representative of Judaism and Christianity, I am not sure if this is so. It is a theory that I am still working out myself and do not have a firm grasp on it yet. I wanted others to look at the verses and give their opinion.

Perhaps it tickles my ears to think of those in Judaism and Christianity coming together.

Read this. It's not long. Tell my what you think of it, ok?

http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/3021/ephraim.html

hadara

CovenantRay · Jul 24, 2006

Shalom:

I've been holding back on this one. This is a personal opinion, so don't take it as the absolute truth. Study, pray, meditate, then see if it bears fruit.

When the kingdom was divided, there was Judah and Benjamin as the southern kingdom and the other ten tribes as the northern kingdom.

When it became clear that the northern kingdom was apostate, the Levites, and other faithful followers of HaShem would have moved to the southern kingdom. I think Zayit was on the same track on this one. (In other words, the two-house, lost tribes hold no water in my opinion).

The prophets mentioned Ephriam [in my humble opinion] as a collective noun for the apostate northern kingdom peoples, not as a metaphor for gentiles, Christians, or any other groups.

This fits my theology well, and for the time being, I've not been swayed that any other explanation is sufficient.

I have no better references than the rest of you, so please feel free to offer alternative points of view.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

BarbB · Jul 24, 2006

I agree, Ray. Even though my congregation believes that Gentile believers of Yeshua are from Ephraim, I have yet to see anything to make me believe that. I just keep my mouth shut and actually not much is made of it. My brother is not at all drawn to things Messianic and yet we are the same blood. I think it's a heart issue, not a blood issue!

Sephania · Jul 24, 2006

Very well said Barb!

I am wondering about this at that site :

G-d will one day reunite Ephraim and Judah, then G-d may be saying in Jeremiah 31:9 that between the people of Ephraim and the people of Judah, who, combined, make up all of Israel, the people of Ephraim became born of Spirit before the Jewish people. If this is true, then Ephraim is G-d's firstborn

.

Then Sh'aul, Paul must be lieing.

romans 1

1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of G-d unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

First - proton

first in time or place
1. in any succession of things or persons
first in rank
1. influence, honour
2. chief
3. principal
first, at the first

As the gospels record, the first believers in the Messiah Yeshua were Jewish. He even said:

matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Apparently this Samaritian who was a mixed blood of the ones who were placed there by the King of the Assyrians during the exile and those who were Israelits was not considered part of Israel by Yeshua.

Yet Samaritans have always claimed to be the descendants of Israelites of the Northern Kingdom who remained behind during the Babylonian Captivity.

and thus introduced none of the religious changes brought about among the Jews during this time. Some modern scholars agree. A genetic study (Shen, et al., 2004) concluded from Y chromosome analysis that Samaritans descend from the Israelites (including Cohen, or priests), and mitochondrial DNA analysis shows descent from Assyrians and other foreign women, effectively validating both local and foreign origins for the Samaritans.Wiki

Sephania · Jul 24, 2006

Ephraim isn't considered part of Israel, but his brother Manasseh is. And the 10 tribes are not considered part of Ephraim.

According to Jacob, Ephraim's descendants, who dominated Israel's ancient northern kingdom, were to become the fullness of the Gentiles.

The territory of Ephraim ( meaning double fruitfulness ) was fairly small, comparable in size to that of Reuben. His brother, Manasseh's portion was at least 7 times greater and spanned both sides of the Yarden. Also Simeons portion was in the south, below Judahs even and was 'absorbed' by Judah, thus became part of the southern kingdom. Simeon is also the name of the tzadik waiting in Jerusalem for the promised salvation. Luke 2:25

And in the temple was a woman from the tribe of Asher. ( Luke 2:36)

Seems like some of the tribes weren't so 'lost' after all. As well as in Acts on Shavuot (Pentecost) those that were there from the nations, were Jews, who else would be there for the festival???

When Yeshua sent out his disciples, while still on earth, he told them to go only to the lost sheep of ther house of Israel (Matt 10), if they were truly lost , how did they know who to go to? And if they didn't know they were Jews what in the world would 'the Kingdom of heaven at hand' mean to them , less they followed Torah and the prophets?

MattyJames · Jul 24, 2006

And another one, what about James 1:1 "...to the Twelve tribes scattered abroad, Greeting." James obvously knew that they were still in existance.

MJ

BarbB · Jul 24, 2006

MattyJames said:
And another one, what about James 1:1 "...to the Twelve tribes scattered abroad, Greeting." James obvously knew that they were still in existance.

MJ

Good one, Matt - I never caught that!

Sephania · Jul 24, 2006

Yes, another good one!

And the evidence builds.

Now there are some who are separated, like that small tribe in Japan, or the one in India, and then there is the more promanant one from Ethiopia, but they weren't lost, forgotten maybe, out of touch but had the Torah................

jgonz · Jul 24, 2006

There Had to be members of the 10 Tribes who got assimilated into other nations and never returned to Israel's land. Those people would be "lost", as in they lost their heritage, their roots, and may or may not have passed down their knowledge that they originally followed the G-d of Israel...

I agree that those individuals/families in the 10 Tribes in Ephraim who Wanted to follow the L-rd would probably have emigrated south into Judah. They would have felt that it was important to maintain their heritage and family/tribal lines. So in later Scriptures there would still be some who knew they were from specific Tribes from Ephraim originally.

I guess I see it both ways...

What do you think about Ephraim?

hadara

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I stand with my brothers and sisters in Israel!

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