That view sounds scriptural to me, as it harmonizes with Daniel 12.Tavita said:What has the 144000 got to do with the pretrib rapture theory? I don't believe in pretrib but I believe that if God's word says that 144000 of the tribes are sealed, then that is exactly how many will be sealed. Can't God count? Why does God give us numbers if we just throw them off as not meaning what He says they mean? Numbers have great meaning in scripture. These 144000 are the 'elite' troops, their mission is to bring multitudes to Christ. It doesn't mean no-one else will be saved or sealed. And also... the last trumpet DOES herald the Day of the Lord.
Barraco said:right, but it says nothing about what their mission is. That is all speculation SOLEY on the rapture theory that was never observed before the 19th century. The 144,000 are not Israelites sealed just because they are Israelites. The mistake that many make in interpreting Revelation is that they resolve in their heads that the seven trumpets don't mean the immediate return of Jesus. The trumpets herald his return. That means that there is no 7 year triblation, there is no pretrib rapture, and there is no sealing of Israelites. The 144,000 emply the remnant of those that call on the name of Jesus, emplying that these are those that split from major Christian body because of the apostasy. Its in the same context. If you take the 144,000 out of the Church, you no longer make sense of Revelation 14. The Woman of Ch. 12 represents the first Church and the first covenant. This went into hiding during the times of the Gentiles in which her offspring (the Christians who follow God's commandments and keep the testimony of Jesus Christ) were persecuted. Then the false Church arose and the true Church went into hiding among the Gentiles. What do we get out of that???? The 144,000 of the tribes of Israel.
Tavita said:What has the 144000 got to do with the pretrib rapture theory? I don't believe in pretrib but I believe that if God's word says that 144000 of the tribes are sealed, then that is exactly how many will be sealed. Can't God count? Why does God give us numbers if we just throw them off as not meaning what He says they mean? Numbers have great meaning in scripture. These 144000 are the 'elite' troops, their mission is to bring multitudes to Christ. It doesn't mean no-one else will be saved or sealed. And also... the last trumpet DOES herald the Day of the Lord.
TroyTrojansFan said:Boy, I've never heard of an explanation like that. And to say that there is no 7 year tribulation, no pre-trib rapture, etc. is just plain ignoring of scripture. I don't have enough posts yet to provide an outside link, but you really need to read an article written by Jack Kelley which talks about the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14.
Dr. Arnold Frutchenbaum suggests that the 144,000 are Jews located all over the world, as they already have OT theology down, and would only need to brush up on the NT. Further, the Jews are spread out all over the world, so they would already speak the language of the population that they are to witness to. Currently this would take about 6 years to reach. 4 years for seminary and 2 years to learn the language of the mission field. The Jews would be able to be ready for their task much faster. So, I don't believe that the 144,000 Jews will be Israelis as thos eliving in Israel, but rather living in the world.
It's a calculation of the 70 weeks of Daniel. Read the following: http://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.htmlBarraco said:So where does the Bible say anything about a 7 year tribulation
Daywolf said:It's a calculation of the 70 weeks of Daniel. Read the following: http://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html
You scare me!!! If you are justified by the church or works you are destined for hell "There is no other name under heaven, given among men, wherby ye must be saved" We are all saved by christ alone And with 50 million marters to date we are far more than 144000.Barraco said:I was talking about God's grace and will with my wife and it I believe God revealed it to me that the 144,000 chosen is actually symbolism for an elected chosen of many denominations. Notice that in the section concerning God's true Church (Rev. 12-14,) The prophecy goes like this:
Exile
Christ's First Advent
Church spread Gospel
Church persecuted
Church protected
Church corrupted through political affairs by the Roman Empire
Holy Roman Empire rises
The Papacy rises
Those that follow the Papacy recieve its mark of authority and follow.
Then it goes on to describe the 144,000 chosen. Why? It is describing those that are justified by faith alone and not by the authority of the Church or any good works. The 144,000 are those that know Christ by heart and follow him wherever he goes. These are the elect that follow God's commandments and keep the testimony of Jesus Christ. The reason for their numbering as regarding 12 tribes is to represent God's diversity in his ministry so that the world may be preached to. If you notice that after the Reformation, many denominations started rising, each discovering a different aspect of God's will. These follow Jesus wherever he goes. This is the significance of the 144,000 chosen; they are elected by God to spread the Gospel. The number 144,000 is to describe a remnant among the populace that actually follow Christ.
What do you think? God bless
Um, no. I said that the 144,000 are justified by faith alone and NOT by the Church. Read my posts a little more thoroughly. If you already have a preconception about a certain view before you actually read it, what they say won't make sense anyway.inhisdebt said:You scare me!!! If you are justified by the church or works you are destined for hell "There is no other name under heaven, given among men, wherby ye must be saved" We are all saved by christ alone And with 50 million marters to date we are far more than 144000.
No, it doesn't say the God's sanctuary would be built, it said that his sactuary would be 'IN THE MIDST OF THE THEM FOREVER MORE' thus meaning the eternal heavenly sanctuary, not a sanctuary of sticks and stones. There will be no third temple regardless if people built it or not. The temple is in heaven, where our Lord ministers for us each day.Daywolf said:Ezekiel 37
Barraco said:No, it doesn't say the God's sanctuary would be built, it said that his sactuary would be 'IN THE MIDST OF THE THEM FOREVER MORE' thus meaning the eternal heavenly sanctuary, not a sanctuary of sticks and stones. There will be no third temple regardless if people built it or not. The temple is in heaven, where our Lord ministers for us each day.
Barraco said:There was no talk about … the Jews ever living in Jerusalem again.
Whaaaaat? You gotta be joking, right? I read the NT and the OT as one single inspired work from God. You cant have an understandable NT w/o the OT to support it. Basically, everything in the NT is IN the OT! The OT validates the NT. They are inseparable especially in regards to prophecy. I think this is really the issue you should deal with before you even start trying to understand prophecy.Barraco said:Don't get caught up in OT prophecy. You need to remember that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Excellent post!!!!!!Daywolf said:Whaaaaat? You gotta be joking, right? I read the NT and the OT as one single inspired work from God. You can’t have an understandable NT w/o the OT to support it. Basically, everything in the NT is IN the OT! The OT validates the NT. They are inseparable especially in regards to prophecy. I think this is really the issue you should deal with before you even start trying to understand prophecy.
Daywolf said:My answer wasnt concerning the temple but the part that states or the Jews ever living in Jerusalem again. I just left it in to try to keep the context readable. Funny how you didn't bother to remark on that when it was so obvious my reply... Here Ill hack it up for you
Ezekiel 37 answers that. They are returned from among the nations from being dispersed (wherever they have gone v21). This is not pointing to a captivity in a single country, this is among the world. God promises he will bring them back, just as he has done/is doing now, and the rest of this chapter simply covers the promises that will in the future be fulfilled which happens after the next few chapters. As for the temple, maybe Ill reply to that or maybe I wont, this reply, as my last one was just dealing with one part of your condensed question/remark.
Your original post that I commented on contradicted what the scripture said of Jesus and Abraham, so I would take the Holy spirit's wording over yours. Of course Jesus is a blessing to the world but that blessing is not accepted by the majority or the Lord would not say that few would be saved although many would be called (Mt 22:14; Mt 7:14).Daywolf said:Right, through Abrahams seed will all the earth be blessed which Christ came from. Christ’s lineage is from Abraham, not from Nero or any other tribe or nation. Trough Abraham was created a great nation, his offspring, and through Abrahams seed, through his lineage the promise of the messiah would come and bless the entire world. This does not say that Abrahams seed would become the world, but that through him the promise of the Christ would come and HE would be a blessing for the world, from Abraham's seed.
Not only would the world be blessed through Abrahams seed by way of Christ, but Abraham would have many descendants. This is told to him during a time when he had no descendants and had a hard time believing it because his wife was old. But God promised that he would in fact be the father of a great nation and that Christ would come through his seed which will be a blessing to the entire world.
Now how would you say the blessing is just his descendants being intermingled with some of the people of this world? that is no blessing for the world for it still results in death for the world. No, he was specifically referring to Christ through his seed that would bless the whole world, not just a select few that happen to be intermingled with the blood of Abraham.
MY concern was that the statement as given, insinuated that this group was special because of salvation through faith,As apposed to others, if not great. as to the 144,000 denominations i would say that is a stretch but who knows.Barraco said:Um, no. I said that the 144,000 are justified by faith alone and NOT by the Church. Read my posts a little more thoroughly. If you already have a preconception about a certain view before you actually read it, what they say won't make sense anyway.
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(Rev 7:2-4)
(1Co 15:22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Co 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
(1Co 15:25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(1Co 15:26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
(Rev 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Hmmm……… well if that’s so and he whispered that to you I would expect that he is screaming at you concerning the Church NOT being the 144,000 or accepting any form of replacement theology.Rafael said:Your original post that I commented on contradicted what the scripture said of Jesus and Abraham, so I would take the Holy spirit's wording over yours.