Why?
Or, a better question, why not create a universe where all souls go to heaven?
Or, a better question, why not create a universe where all souls go to heaven?
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Originally posted by DrLao
The choice is not yours. You are only able to choose that path because I allow you to take it.
"But even if I don't override your decision, I have made the choice for you. Because you doing it according to my will. If I have total control over your decisions, then my choosing not to affect you is just as positive a choice as my choosing to affect you. It makes no difference, if I am in control then you have no choice since not all the options are open to you. Only the the ones I wish you to take."
I don't think so. God is in control of every factor that leads to my decision, and He knows exactly how those factors will affect me, then He essentially chooses for me.
Don't be so down on yourself. I think the problem is that the conflict lies at a level more fundamental than the one we've been arguing at. I think we need to figure out exactly what it means to have a free choice. Another problem is that folks a lot more knowledgeable and skilled at philosophy than us have been arguing about this one for thousands of years and it's still going on.
Originally posted by s0uljah
cb-
Hopefully you dont mind me joining this conversation?
[/QUOTE]Anyway, here is my point, and it is the same one you are making. God knows everything. We can't understand His ways completely, since we are humans. I was highlighting that fact by the statement that we can't even form a logical question about His knowledge of who would go to Hell, since we think in linear time. [/B]
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?
Originally posted by cb
We aren't debating God knowing and creating those that will go to Hell...as far as I know.
I still see a slight (but huge) difference between "allow" and "make".
I honestly don't think God could say "I will change her choice, because like i've said before, to change my choice would be to take away who I am. I would no longer be who I am, but a different person.
In control of, yes. ultimatley responsible for? no. I don't think that circumstances make a choice for you. God has a puropse for you, even if you are evil. Perhaps you will have offspring that will be saved, perhaps you affect someone so that they will be saved. He has you here because you are supposed to be here at this time and this place.
****************Originally posted by cb
doc,
what do you think of this?
What if you taped a football game. Then decided to watch it later. No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to get the final score to change. It has be determined already. However, this does not mean that during the course of that game, the players were not free. From God's perspective (since he is omniscient) everything has been for-knonw or determined already. that doesn't mean that we aren't free to make the choices we do.
Originally posted by DrLao
So, basically, you just undermined your whole argument. Can God cause me to change my decisions? Yes. Does He purposely do so sometimes? Yes. Therefore, He is in control, I have no choice.
Originally posted by DrLao
Or, a better question, why not create a universe where all souls go to heaven?
Maybe we are. You are saying that God gave them the choice to choose hell, I am saying God created them to go to hell.
Couldn't God have constructed a universe where evil would not be necessary at all? If so, why didn't He?
If He could save everyone and wishes everyone to be saved, it is irrational that He wouldn't do it.
Originally posted by DrLao
Never? So, do you reject any experience where someone claims that God spoke to them? Afterall, if He never intervenes...
A person 'chooses' to go to hell, in the same way that a person 'chooses' to be tortured and killed for refusing to submit to the will of an evil tyrant.Originally posted by s0uljah
You choose Heaven, or you choose Hell. Take your pick.
Originally posted by Neo
A person 'chooses' to go to hell, in the same way that a person 'chooses' to be tortured and killed for refusing to submit to the will of an evil tyrant.
Originally posted by Neo
You know I'm right...
Would you mind telling me why you think I'm wrong?Originally posted by unworthyone
No you think you know you are right. I, on the other hand, am over here cracking up!
Oh, I see now. You have no real reason to believe that I'm wrong, but you do, just because. And you think that I'm the one who needs to grow up?Originally posted by unworthyone
Cuz I said so.
Originally posted by Neo
Oh, I see now. You have no real reason to believe that I'm wrong, but you do, just because. And you think that I'm the one who needs to grow up?