isn't there a true nazarene group that has a hidden past down through the generations... did we not have one visit us last year sometime and tell us about it?
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Nazrene Judaism
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Homesick4Heaven
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I'm sure there is a true nazarene group, and according to the first 2 sites listed are almost identical to the MJ movement. I did not see a difference in them with the little bit of info they posted. BUT if they are following the teachings of that last site, they are WAY off base. Believers in Y'shua are not hate filled and venomously attacking every other group of believers just to do it. Hate cannot co-exist with the Spirit of God in your heart.
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Alot of that is true, just because a festival is popular and celebrated, does not mean it does not have pagan roots. As for the Magen David I do remember that mentioned but it was specified that the Magen David alone was not pagan and no pagan would have anything to do with it. It is the Magen David with a circle around it that is pagan. There is alot more truth to all that then you might think. Many practices symbols etc. in the Christian churches are of pagan origin, that is a fact. Christmas is not the only one. A person might really like Christmas and all that goes with it, but knowing the origin of it one has to decide in their own concience what they will do with it, and it is like that with all the other things as well. There is alot more that goes on in the real spirit world on both the side of good and evil then most people want to know, but that does not make it not real. wishing to maintain something as good when it has evil roots cannot make it good. It is what it is whatever it may be.
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Homesick4Heaven
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True, but not everything with a little truth is completely true. Even a lie can be based on truth.
I did a web search on steeples and their meaning, nothing about phallic pagan symbols came up. I searched for the cross and nothing about pagan rituals or symbols came up. Satanism was quite often mentioned and referenced Peter's cross, but nothing pagan. What I found on mothers day is in direct opposition to their pagan claims of Mother's Day honoring the mother goddess. The ancient greeks and romans did not honor mothers, they celebrated fertility of the land in the rituals the site refers to. I have a minor in ancient history, and spent a year studying each ancient rome and greece. They did not honor women, they were property and a means to wealth. Even the goddesses of their ancient world were not honored as women. Look at the depictions of Athena and Aphrodite, the warrior lesbian and the sex object. In ancient greece, a womans job was to produce sons and manage the household. She held less rights than the dog or chariot horse. The wife was disposable, all a man had to do if someone else caught his eye was return her to her father, and he did not have to bring her home with clothes on (she did not even own her own clothes). Rome wasn't much better, but at least the women had some rights. But they were still just objects of pleasure and for babies. In no way were women given honor by the ancients, and the sites argument that mothers day reflects that the female goddesses were honored as mothers is false. If a woman is only a vessel and does not have anything to do with a child but give birth to it and breastfeed it, then it does not have a mother to honor. The concept of motherhood was not understood as we do today. And the ancient greeks and romans did not honor mothers or the mother goddess, they only worshipped attributes they gave them (fertility, protector of the home, warrior, nymph).
http://www.chiff.com/home_life/holiday/mothers-day-history.htm
I did a web search on steeples and their meaning, nothing about phallic pagan symbols came up. I searched for the cross and nothing about pagan rituals or symbols came up. Satanism was quite often mentioned and referenced Peter's cross, but nothing pagan. What I found on mothers day is in direct opposition to their pagan claims of Mother's Day honoring the mother goddess. The ancient greeks and romans did not honor mothers, they celebrated fertility of the land in the rituals the site refers to. I have a minor in ancient history, and spent a year studying each ancient rome and greece. They did not honor women, they were property and a means to wealth. Even the goddesses of their ancient world were not honored as women. Look at the depictions of Athena and Aphrodite, the warrior lesbian and the sex object. In ancient greece, a womans job was to produce sons and manage the household. She held less rights than the dog or chariot horse. The wife was disposable, all a man had to do if someone else caught his eye was return her to her father, and he did not have to bring her home with clothes on (she did not even own her own clothes). Rome wasn't much better, but at least the women had some rights. But they were still just objects of pleasure and for babies. In no way were women given honor by the ancients, and the sites argument that mothers day reflects that the female goddesses were honored as mothers is false. If a woman is only a vessel and does not have anything to do with a child but give birth to it and breastfeed it, then it does not have a mother to honor. The concept of motherhood was not understood as we do today. And the ancient greeks and romans did not honor mothers or the mother goddess, they only worshipped attributes they gave them (fertility, protector of the home, warrior, nymph).
http://www.chiff.com/home_life/holiday/mothers-day-history.htm
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Well all that doesnt really matter to me, I know there are alot of pagan roots in things, all that matters is what is true and it depends on who you talk to, you can talk to people who will tell you there are no pagan roots or symbols in Christmas, Each to the dictates of their own concience. As for me I prefer to stick to festivals, commands etc. that are given in Torah. I have learned alot from alot of different sources and find it interesting and informative in many different ways.
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somebody else please go to this site and see what you think, I did not think they were vicious at all just trying to expose the truth as they see it. I think they have lots of good information and alot that needs to be considered. And they do have nice music. http://www.nazarite.net/home.html
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Homesick4Heaven
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It is not just the one site. They do not teach truth. Please look at the links I have provided below. They believe you cannot be saved unless you belong to their group. They force gentile believers to convert through the Orthodox (denounce Y'shua) to be able join them. They believe the Ruach HaKodesh is FEMALE and pray to God ans Father Mother.
Check out this site. I suggest section 5. It is very good fiction. They have Y'shua praying to Abba Amma, 5 melons have replaced the 5 fish and 2 loaves to feed 5000, and the disciples are working as carpenters onthe Temple to prepare for Passover.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/ght_table_of_contents.htm
This site claims it needs to rescue Orthodox certified Jews from Christianity and Y'shua.
http://www2.netvision.net.il/~netzarim/
As I have stated before, lies and twisted truths.
Check out this site. I suggest section 5. It is very good fiction. They have Y'shua praying to Abba Amma, 5 melons have replaced the 5 fish and 2 loaves to feed 5000, and the disciples are working as carpenters onthe Temple to prepare for Passover.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/ght_table_of_contents.htm
This site claims it needs to rescue Orthodox certified Jews from Christianity and Y'shua.
http://www2.netvision.net.il/~netzarim/
As I have stated before, lies and twisted truths.
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Homesick4Heaven
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no the site I am refering to is mentioned a few posts up by flopsy rabbit, http://www.nazarite.net/home.htmlYovel said:
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The last 2 sites you gave are totally wierd and extremely off, the one I went to just had interesting info on the origins of things, none of this other wierd stuff, and if they believe any of that I surely dont, the information I read was true and informative and not wierd at all like this other stuff. Here is a nice site http://www.bethmessiah.com/topic2.htm
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out of curiousity i had to check it out, I am thankful that father brought me here to messianic judaism to learn and that i did not get tangled up in the webs of deception from them poor misinformed souls.
Of course the father is one, and the dove is of his spirit. The son, was on the earth, filled with the holy spirit, and a temple for the father is his body. For some reason it is very simple for me to understand, but then again, i do have the sword.
Now isn't the word rabbi a hebrew translation for teacher? When i call rabbi David, rabbi, i am calling him a teacher, and a fine teacher he is. I learn so much from just listening to him talk. It is the word father that has gotten a bit out of control, as we have one father who arth in heaven, this is the teaching, not about teachers, the use of the word father is a prophesy that came to pass, it's simple to see.
*thanks father for blessing me with this forum*
Of course the father is one, and the dove is of his spirit. The son, was on the earth, filled with the holy spirit, and a temple for the father is his body. For some reason it is very simple for me to understand, but then again, i do have the sword.
Now isn't the word rabbi a hebrew translation for teacher? When i call rabbi David, rabbi, i am calling him a teacher, and a fine teacher he is. I learn so much from just listening to him talk. It is the word father that has gotten a bit out of control, as we have one father who arth in heaven, this is the teaching, not about teachers, the use of the word father is a prophesy that came to pass, it's simple to see.
*thanks father for blessing me with this forum*
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I see we have some controversy here...
H4H: i also think I disagree with the sites you posted...
However, are we certain that those have anything to do with the group that phil brought up? Perhaps they use the word "Nazarene" or "Netzarim" but have nothing to do with one another?
I mean, the Church of the Nazarene has nothing to do with Messianic Judaism but it still uses "Nazarene" does it not?
Let's make sure we're not assuming things or jumping to conclusions without ties between them. Is there a conection that you saw? Maybe Phil can help us out here
H4H: i also think I disagree with the sites you posted...
However, are we certain that those have anything to do with the group that phil brought up? Perhaps they use the word "Nazarene" or "Netzarim" but have nothing to do with one another?
I mean, the Church of the Nazarene has nothing to do with Messianic Judaism but it still uses "Nazarene" does it not?
Let's make sure we're not assuming things or jumping to conclusions without ties between them. Is there a conection that you saw? Maybe Phil can help us out here
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Homesick4Heaven
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They are the the Jewish ones, not Church of the Nazarene. They state that multiple times in the sites. They call all other religions and denominations perversions of truth. Even the site Flopsy is so adamently defending calls MJ a lie and an abomination to God.
As for the dove--What was the bird that rested on Y'shua's shoulder when God opened heaven at His immersion? A dove.
Just because other Nazarene Jewish sites blantely flaunt the lie does not make them weird. The Nazarene Jewish Manifesto, available online and is over 150 pages (I took hours and read it completely last night), states you must convert and be certified by the Orthodox in order to be recognized as a follower of God. They state they want to rescuse Jews from Y'shua and gentile believers must become orthodox certified converts, but try to confuse you in the manifesto with NT Scripture. Look closely at the wording of that Scripture andcompare it withseveral translations of the Bible. Conversion to Judaism by gentiles is against Scripture-Romans 8 and 9 state we are not to convert but to follow God in the state we were call to Him in. It states in plain words that their mission is to save Jews from Christianity, Messianic Judaism and Y'shua. How is that truth according to Scripture? The site I sent you to in the last post had some of their scriptures in it. They have twisted and distorted the True Word of God. Example: they have fallen into the pagan belief of a feminine mother godess and pray to her when they pray to the Father "Abba Amma". Means Father Mother in Aramic. They teach the Ruach HaKodesh is the Mother, God is the Father. NOT SUPPORTED IN SCRIPTURE and UNTRUE. FALSE TEACHING!!!!
I call what I see as I see it. We all have the gift of discernment, the Ruach HaKodesh will tell you to stay away from something that is not of God. I pray you take away the biased 'this is ok' attitude and look at what they say as if you eternal soul rests on it, because it does. If you fall into their lies, you may be convinced to give up your salvation to convert to Orthodox Judaism and follow them, once you renounce Y'shua you are no longer of God and the Ruach HaKodesh will withdraw from you. At that point you are not able toturn back to God. Y'shua said if you deny Me before man I will deny you before the Father. Where this is concerned, I SEE LIES AND DECEPTION!!!!
As for the dove--What was the bird that rested on Y'shua's shoulder when God opened heaven at His immersion? A dove.
Just because other Nazarene Jewish sites blantely flaunt the lie does not make them weird. The Nazarene Jewish Manifesto, available online and is over 150 pages (I took hours and read it completely last night), states you must convert and be certified by the Orthodox in order to be recognized as a follower of God. They state they want to rescuse Jews from Y'shua and gentile believers must become orthodox certified converts, but try to confuse you in the manifesto with NT Scripture. Look closely at the wording of that Scripture andcompare it withseveral translations of the Bible. Conversion to Judaism by gentiles is against Scripture-Romans 8 and 9 state we are not to convert but to follow God in the state we were call to Him in. It states in plain words that their mission is to save Jews from Christianity, Messianic Judaism and Y'shua. How is that truth according to Scripture? The site I sent you to in the last post had some of their scriptures in it. They have twisted and distorted the True Word of God. Example: they have fallen into the pagan belief of a feminine mother godess and pray to her when they pray to the Father "Abba Amma". Means Father Mother in Aramic. They teach the Ruach HaKodesh is the Mother, God is the Father. NOT SUPPORTED IN SCRIPTURE and UNTRUE. FALSE TEACHING!!!!
I call what I see as I see it. We all have the gift of discernment, the Ruach HaKodesh will tell you to stay away from something that is not of God. I pray you take away the biased 'this is ok' attitude and look at what they say as if you eternal soul rests on it, because it does. If you fall into their lies, you may be convinced to give up your salvation to convert to Orthodox Judaism and follow them, once you renounce Y'shua you are no longer of God and the Ruach HaKodesh will withdraw from you. At that point you are not able toturn back to God. Y'shua said if you deny Me before man I will deny you before the Father. Where this is concerned, I SEE LIES AND DECEPTION!!!!
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"Even the site Flopsy is so adamently defending calls MJ a lie and an abomination to God. "
That seems a bit hateful to me. I am not ademntly defending anything. I simply said there was some good information there that makes you think. nowhere did I say I agree with everything on the site... I do not like to see things misrepresented it bothers me. As for the site saying MJ was a lie and an abomination to G-d. I personaly did not see where it said that? What I saw was a statement that as the Christian church has gone too far to one side in throwing away Torah etc. Many Messianic Jewish congregations have gone too far the other direction following Rabbinic tradition but ignoring Torah. That is their opionion. Here is a story to help explain what I am talking about. There was a singer who sang in a concert, after the concert she was back stage and her friend came back stage and was talking to her, her teacher did not come back stage which the student was concerned about, she asked her friend if her teacher had said anything and her friend said oh he said it was heavenly. The singer was not sure about that owing to the fact that her teacher had not come back stage, so further questioned her friend " is that exactly what he said?" well no, said her friend, he said it was and "unearthly noise". I have also found that people tend to believe things without checking them out for themselves, this often does alot of damage not necessarily in regards to a web site, but in life. Someone says something about someone, or something and people just believe them with out checking it out for themselves, they spread it around and pretty soon someone can get hurt very badly. Also it is possible to learn and to gain helpful insight knowledge or wisdom from sources which are not 100% correct, that might be learning truth or error or some of both. Nobody has everything completely right, but we can still learn from each other, hang on to the truth and leave the error.
That seems a bit hateful to me. I am not ademntly defending anything. I simply said there was some good information there that makes you think. nowhere did I say I agree with everything on the site... I do not like to see things misrepresented it bothers me. As for the site saying MJ was a lie and an abomination to G-d. I personaly did not see where it said that? What I saw was a statement that as the Christian church has gone too far to one side in throwing away Torah etc. Many Messianic Jewish congregations have gone too far the other direction following Rabbinic tradition but ignoring Torah. That is their opionion. Here is a story to help explain what I am talking about. There was a singer who sang in a concert, after the concert she was back stage and her friend came back stage and was talking to her, her teacher did not come back stage which the student was concerned about, she asked her friend if her teacher had said anything and her friend said oh he said it was heavenly. The singer was not sure about that owing to the fact that her teacher had not come back stage, so further questioned her friend " is that exactly what he said?" well no, said her friend, he said it was and "unearthly noise". I have also found that people tend to believe things without checking them out for themselves, this often does alot of damage not necessarily in regards to a web site, but in life. Someone says something about someone, or something and people just believe them with out checking it out for themselves, they spread it around and pretty soon someone can get hurt very badly. Also it is possible to learn and to gain helpful insight knowledge or wisdom from sources which are not 100% correct, that might be learning truth or error or some of both. Nobody has everything completely right, but we can still learn from each other, hang on to the truth and leave the error.
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to clarify, that is not what I asked. I asked is it the exact SAME group as phil mentioned. Obviously I know it isn't the CoN. I gave the example that the church of the nazarenes uses the word "Nazarene" but is not Messianic. I hope that's clearer.
I'd rather get my question ironed out before anyone assumes that someone belongs to that particular group you mention in your last post (which yes, teaches untruths).
I wouldn't want to be the one accusing people of following false doctrine unless it's clear they believe those statements. Please don't stop seeking and showing Truth, but make sure it is not a misunderstanding. Notice that we have not heard from phil since his second post withthose two websites. He did not post the ones you found. He posted two others. So let's figure that out before pointing fingers and saying he supports the people and beliefs behind those other two sites you posted... better safe than sorry.
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James Trimm has been discussed at length on this and other forums. I doubt that little more can be added.
The second site uses the name "Yahshua", which certainly raises (at least for me) questions of credibility.
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Hmm, this is what I saw there.Flopsy Rabbit said:
They give away free the seventh day adventist book National Sunday Law, and can't speak highly enough about it. ( So they don't believe Adventists are a corrupt religion? )
The music ( they call it Sacred Music) they SELL , many have disclaimers about the songs titles, such as:
Warning! This release contains some pagan titles.
That was on three of them, then this was found on 10 of them:
Warning! This release may contain an Epraimite or Two-House message.
And one of these groups call themselves " We are Israel" So??? :o
There was one CD titled "Your Name Is Forever Yahuah " Never heard Him called that before, anyone?
What did they do with the Shin?
They also promote the selling of The Scriptures, a Sacred namer bible. I once went to a group that was following NG, and celebrating Passover with the green barley and that is the book they all had. Those who didn't have their own, they were allowed to use extra copies that the leader had on hand.
They even call their guest book the BOOK OF LIFE! How brazen is that????
I won't go into their defintions of the foundation of other holidays, but they are stretching a bit with the thanksgiving one. I have read in numerous places that thanksgiving was something the pilgrams did because they were thankful to G-d for getting them through the winter and for the bountiful harvest there crops gave that first year. They wanted to thank him and searched the bible to find some way. That is when they discoverd Sukkot the harvest festival. and that is where they derives this from. The November celbration was a date one of the presidents picked ( probably to help out the Christmas shopping season), it was not originally in NOv.
On the cross - actually this is the very ancient Hebrew letter tav, the last letter of the aleph-bet.
Actually, I read through about a quarter of his page on MJ and he has some very valid points.
Also saw alot of Nehemiah Gordon and Michael Rood books and vidoes ( teachings) there. I know that one of them doesn't even believe in Yeshua as Messiah. From what I can tell they are a Sacred Name group and should mostly be given a wide berth.
Rood is considered a false prophet like Benny Hinn and
And NG? I found this on another site about him
So there you have it.
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Where do they get that from? Even the tranliteration from Greek to English, even Spainish has a 'S' in it, so what did they do with the Shin?
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