True Israel

Noa,

There is nothing I can say or do for you, except to point to what the Apostle Paul wrote (he was a jew) and if anyone knew anything about the Law he did.

What is interesting is the Bible tells us the following;

Mt 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

This is refereing to the veil, which divided the holy place from the holiest in the temple.

At the moment Jesus crys out and gives up the Ghost.

The nation continued to exist another 35-37 years, no doubt the religious people of the day continued worshipping and sacrificing daily, while the priest continued in their priestly functions, and no doubt yearly the high priest offered a sacrifice for the sins of the people and after offering up a sin offering for his own sin entered into the holiest place to meet with God.

Did they sow the veil back together that they may continue, their scrificial offerings to God??


Concerning the New Covenent, Paul writes in Hebrews;

9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


So, I have no idea what Bible you refer to.

In order to understand, what God has ordained from the begining, one should consider what he has to say about the matter.

Heb 8
8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man .

Jesus, whom God raised from the Dead, is our High Priest. who makes intercession for his people day and night, in the presence of God, for he sits at Gods right Hand.

If you can see this, you might understand; if not consider the following;


Paul says again, about the children of Israel;



2 Cor 3
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech :
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished :
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart .
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away .
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty .

Sure he was speaking to the Gentile believers, concerning his own kin, and his heartfelt desire was to see;


ROM 10
10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge .
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Noa,

I do not understand what you are telling me with that chapter. This is about the Law. Not about the nation Israël! It is about the Law, Yeshua fulfilled the Law. Yeshua IS the Law

I can see that you perceive that Jesus came to fulfill the Law, and is the end of the Law to everyoine who believes in HIM.

Rom 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin .

The same Jesus, who spoke to the woman at the well, still speaks today;

John 4
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink .
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life .
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly
.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews .
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth .
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.





Thank you for your ear.



RICHARD
 
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Noa

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Hello Lionheart,

Thank you for your posting, but I have 2 problems with it:
  1. I think you did not answer my posting well enough and you didn´t pick up the right verses to proof that you are right.
  2. I can’t agree with you, because I think you are reading the Bible in the wrong way. Little example: in your other posting you mentioned some verses (Jer.31:31 en Rom.3 about circumcision) and I read them differently. Jer.31:31 tells us about the New Covenant and Rom. 3 is about circumcision of the heart. I understood what you try to tell me, but it is wrong when I read these verses very well.
    [/list=1]

    It is no offence to you or your believe. It doesn´t feel right to me when someone does not read the Bible correct and read it word for word. If your mother or father is no Jew, you will never be a Jew as member of the nation like I tried to explain. And please give answers at last posting. If you do that, than we are able to have a futher discussion.

    G´d bless you!

    Kirsten
 
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Noa

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Originally posted by Lion Heart



NOA,


What are you saying, can you clarify??


RICHARD
Dear Richard,

I´m sorry, I will try to explain what I meant. My English :D

Once you gave a response at my posting. Then I replied back. Your lastest posting you tried to proof again (with Bible verses) that I read the Bible wrongly. But I still waiting for your answer on mine very long posting ;-). In that posting I also gave examples the difference between the Jew and the Gentile; with and without the Bible. When you did that, then I´m able to reply again.

(Please, if you want to, read the Jewish B´rit Chadashah from David Stern; Rom.10:4)
 
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filosofer

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But there is a big difference between the nation and the commonwealth of that nation.

... So there is a difference between the Jew (the nation Israel) and the gentile (the commonwealth of Israel), but NOT in love and mercy through Yeshua!

While you make the statement at the beginning of the paragraph and you make the same conclusion, you have provided no Biblical substance to show that there is a difference between "the nation Israel" and "the commonwealth of Isreal."

What Scriupture can you provide to show this distinction?
 
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Noa

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Originally posted by filosofer


While you make the statement at the beginning of the paragraph and you make the same conclusion, you have provided no Biblical substance to show that there is a difference between "the nation Israel" and "the commonwealth of Isreal."

What Scriupture can you provide to show this distinction?
Then you understood me wrongly I guess. I was very clear in my explaination in the difference between a commonwealth and the nation itself and the verses I gave are very clear also. So... what do you want me to say? ;)
 
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The Kazaar theory has never been proven, it is just a theory.

The "Green Olive Tree" is referred to in Jer.11:16,17, Israel is called a "Green Olive Tree," fair, and of goodly fruit, but is warned that for its idolatry its branches shall be broken off. In Rom.11:17-27 we have the parabal of the "Two Olive Trees."

One is called a "good" olive tree, the other a "wild" olive tree. The "good" olive tree represents Israel, the "wild" olvie tree the Gentiles.

Some not all of Israel were broken off because of unbelief. They were broken off so the Gentiles might be grafted in. We also see that the "good" olive tree IS NOT ROOTED UP. The root of the "good" olive tree is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and we (the church) are now able to partake of the Promise to Abraham and that promise is Jesus.

Since the "good" olive tree (Israel) is not rooted up and destroyed and the "wild" olive tree (church) planted in its place, how does this prove that the church has taken the place of Israel?
 
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There is nothing not said left. The simple fact is, I am the Chosen. Why? Because, circumcision is of the heart, we as Isaac was are the children of promise, it is not the children of the flesh but the children of the spirit. Check I Peter 2 I believe, then check it with Exodus 19:3-5. Peter uses the same language to say that we are the chosen as God did to the Jews in Exodus. The simple fact is, the Jews of unbelief were cast off, and now only those who believe in Yeshua are of the Chosen. There is no difference between a muslim man or an orthodox Jewish man. If they accept their King, they are of the chosen. They missed the mark awhile back, and are now just as unsaved as anyone else. As I recall, God didn't work in the past with unsaved people. The promises of God's favor were always to those who were faithful, never to the sinful, even in the OT.
Now, I am not Anti-Semitic, just because I decide not to go on the extreme left-wing and say "Palestinians, get out now!!" That is a political, not Biblical, issue. The fact is, modern Christians should stay out of it if they cannot be unbiased. Palestinians have the right to a nation, just as the ISraelis have a right to a nation. It's time to make peace there by being correct in our standards. Remember, there are more Palestinain Christians than there are Israeli Christians. Let's go by that standard instead of the Dispensational standard.
The unfaithful were cast off in judgment at 70 A.D. (fulfilled Matt. 24, Lke 21, Mark 13, Malachi etc.), and now the true sons of Abraham (faithful Jews/Gentiles) are reigning with Him now. That's what I believe anyway!!!!

Ohh, and yes, I did just join the ranks of Covenant Theologians/Preterists here.
 
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Originally posted by davo
There you go again -rollin' out more assumptions. I'm no enemy of Israel, I'm also no enemy of the Palestinians. You can dismiss the clear promises as fulfilled in Joshua, but I don't. Like the Israelis of old you're still waiting for the Messiah -He's already come!!

davo

Sorry Davo

Your assumptions are unscriptural and unsound. Check out the Prophetic book of Daniel where he deals with the coming of Messiah. I plain speak Daniel says that the timeline of Messiah is 490 years and that Messiah will come 483 years after Cyrus the Great gives the commandment to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem but would be cut off but not for himself. In the root Hebrew this interprets that his kingdom shall not be established at this time.

How came as Daniel said they would at the precise time? Yep Yashua and interestingly the timeline ran out as predicted on the very day he entered Jerusalem on a donkey and the Jews proclaimed him Messiah. Yet for the Jews blindness and deafness was preordained (see Romans 11) that will be taken away by God at the appointed time and they will accept and welcome their and our Messiah.

 
 
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