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True Israel

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Archaggelos, Apr 4, 2002.

  1. Archaggelos

    Archaggelos New Member

    When considering what is happenign with the Israelis and the Palestinians, I always end up asking if Israel does have a true, God given claim to the land. If they do, they have every right and obligation to evict the Palestinians. If not, I am not sure what the best thing to do is.

    Then there are so many secondary questions:

    Is the current nation of Israel the true nation of Israel? Is it just a secular political sovereign?

    Did Israel give up their rights to the land when they rejected God's Messiah? Are only Jews that believe in Jesus the true Israel?

    God made promises to Israel, such as living in the holy land. Since God never changes how can this promise change? Then you go back to whether Israel is the true Israel.

    And around and around we go. Does anyone have any good insight regarding this topic? I'd like to hear what more expert people think.

    In His grace,
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. davo

    davo Member

    Deut 1:8 (NKJV) 8See, I have set the land before you; go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to your fathers--to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--to give to them and their descendants after them.'

    Joshua 21:43-45 (NKJV) 43So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44The LORD gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

    Joshua 23:14 (NKJV) "Behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth. And you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one thing has failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spoke concerning you. All have come to pass for you; not one word of them has failed.

    All that God ever promised Israel of old He fulfilled -there was nothing left unfulfilled. Israel never had any claims to any land in unrighteousness.

    Today if Israel wants peace they need to cease their illegal occupation of Palestinian land -what they are doing is tantamount to ethnic cleansing -we need to take our blinklers off!

  3. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    United States
    Hello davo,
    You are another one that likes the shadow, instead of the tree that makes it. It appears that you all like the creation, instead of the creator as well. It also appears that you are against Israel. This could be very dangerous friend. Joshua shows the shadow of the main event to come. Ezekiel 37 is the main event that is being fulfilled right in the here and now. Don't be fooled, Israel will have their day, and Christ will rule and reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years, and His saints will be given authority over all nations. Do you know that Israel is still waiting for their Messiah?? They didn't recognize Him on the day of visitation, but they will recognize Him when He comes out of heaven with all His saints. Judgment day is coming, you better make sure you get it right. See ya !!
  4. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    I understand your quandry. But yes it is the true Israel, the same one that was taken into captivity by the Assyrians,
    the same Israel that was taken into captivity by the Babylonians, who were taken over by the Pesians, and the same Israel whos thorn was the Philistines.
    The modern day Philistines, Palestinians, have no more right to the land than they ever did.
    One problem I do see is that Modern day Israel is so secular as to allow abortion and gay rights to infiltrate them as much as in Europe and the US. In other words, God's people living in a land of sin. The same problem as the old testament Israel
  5. davo

    davo Member

    There you go again -rollin' out more assumptions. I'm no enemy of Israel, I'm also no enemy of the Palestinians. You can dismiss the clear promises as fulfilled in Joshua, but I don't. Like the Israelis of old you're still waiting for the Messiah -He's already come!!

  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    Today's Israel after the flesh and the Law is not the TRUE Israel. There is an Israel that Paul says is NOT TRULY ISRAEL:

    For they are not all Israel who are OF ISRAEL; nor are they children because they are sons of Abraham !" (Rom 9:6-7)

    Who is this Israel? It is Israel after the flesh (such as Judas, Herod, Ananias, Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Netanyahu , today's cultural jews, etc). It is the Israel of the Law that is not the TRUE Israel, according to Paul who was a jew. This bunch just mentioned is an Israel that is not counted as Israel -- i.e., they ARE NOT HEIRS (exactly as Paul said). Paul calls this Israel by the name "Hagar and Ishmael" and says:

    "Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman [Jews of the Law - Gal 4:25] shall NOT be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, WE are not children of the bondwoman but of the free " (from passage of Galatians 4:22-30).

    So the jews of the Law ("Israel after the flesh" as Paul liked to call them) have been cast out and SHALL NOT BE HEIRS. "For if those who are of the law are the heirs, faith is made void" (Romans 4:13-14).

    Paul says that only those who teach that circumcision of the flesh doesn't matter are true Israel (Gal 6:15-16) -- and that the jews who believe otherwise are made "ANATHEMA" (accursed) -- Gal 1:8; Gal 5:12. Paul is not saying that these people will be saved and are "BELOVED." Rather, these jews are to be made ANATHEMA. Remember,

    "they are not all Israel who are OF ISRAEL; nor are they children because they are sons of Abraham !" (Rom 9:6-7).

    Israel that is the political Israel over in the Middle East teach circumcision and therefore are not true Israel (Gal 6:15-16):

    For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God --Galatians 6:15-16

    True Israel never lost faith, but maintained relations all along with the Olive Tree of Romans 11:16-23. They received Christ and entered into the fullness of Christ. Paul's teaching is very clear in specifically addressing the issue of where jews of the Law stand with regards to the covenant and rights of inheritance -- THEY HAVE NO STANDING.

    In particular, Jesus called Judas the Son of Perdition (John 17:12) and disinherited very many jews who he called "sons of Satan" (John 8:38-47). Paul even called Ananias the High Priest a "whited wall" and cursed him, saying, "God shall smite thee" (Acts 23:2-3). Jehovah did smite Ananias shortly thereafter (Josephus; Wars; Book II, xvii:9). So the jews who followed after the True Faith are Israel, but the rest are not really Israel since they have not also kept the Faith of Abraham.
  7. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    The Shocking Principle of Two Israels


    Most modern Jews have NO bloodline to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
    Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture.
  8. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    >> I always end up asking if Israel does have a true, God given claim to the land.

    David purchased the threshing floor of Ornan and later on Solomon used that place to build the origional temple. It is a plateau between two mountain tops.

    1 Chron. 21:25
    So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.

    The title to that peice of land passes down through the generations to Jesus who is also the Christ. It was never to be sold, but the rightful deed to the land belonged to the decendants of David. In a way, Jesus had a legal right to evict them and move in.

    When asked, Jesus pretty much told them that the current temple would be tore down, and we know a new one would be built in it's place. Ezekial already had the plans to the new temple, even before the temple that was there at the time, had been built. Thanks, JohnR7
  9. engrapho

    engrapho New Member

    (Gal 3:26-29 NIV) You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, {27} for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. {28} There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. {29} If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Jesus said to the 'Jewish' leaders they were not Abrahams seed, a son's of the Devil.

    *Note: I love the 'jewish' people, I believe we are grafted in together with them. There are many more verses, but there is a difference between natural and spiritual Israel.

    Use the Bible not man's teachings. They have no verses that assert to it being different.
  10. amie

    amie Survivor

    you are never going to believe this rollin thunder ...but I think I actually am agreeing with you...yikes...theres a first...hey what happened to your number one blessing status? allright heres some more...
    Amie :angel:
  11. GW

    GW Veteran

    Hang on tight, folks, because the dispensationalists have been taking you on a wild ride on this question. Hang on as we look at Ezek 40-48, Zech 14, and others with the light of revelations given through Jesus and the apostles.

    Dispensationalists are notorious for reading the O.T. while not taking into account the revelation given through Jesus and the apostles. That gets them into HUGE errors:

    First, the capital of the One True Faith will NEVER AGAIN be earthly Jerusalem of our world over there in the Middle East. It is and will forever be in "Heavenly Jerusalem" in Spirit and Truth:

    John 4:20-23
    Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour comes when neither in this mountain, NOR IN JERUSALEM, will you worship the Father ... But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH, for the Father seeks such to be his worshippers.

    Galatians 4:25-26
    Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to the Jerusalem that exists now, for she is in bondage with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.

    The earthly Jerusalem of the jews of the flesh is NOT ever again going to be a headquarters of the True Faith. Furthermore, if you believe that it is and that people are going to go up to their city of Jerusalem then you must also believe that Christ's work is in vain and we will return to the bondage of the Mosaic Law, including mandatory circumcision, blood sacrifices, and feasts. For Zechariah 14 says:

    Zechariah 14:16-19
    It shall happen, that everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of Hosts, and to keep the feast of tents. It shall be, that whoever of all the families of the earth doesn't go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of Hosts, on them there shall be no rain. If the family of Egypt doesn't go up, and doesn't come, neither shall it be on them; there shall be the plague with which Yahweh will strike the nations that don't go up to keep the feast of tents. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that don't go up to keep the feast of tents.

    and Ezekiel says:

    Ezekiel 44:7,9
    In that ye have brought [into my sanctuary] strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, [even] my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that [is] among the children of Israel.

    Galatians 5:1-4
    Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you

    Colossians 2:14,16-17
    The bond, with its requirements, which was in force against us and was hostile to us, He cancelled, and cleared it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross ... Therefore suffer no one to sit in judgement on you as to eating or drinking or with regard to a festival, a new moon or a sabbath. These were a shadow of things that were soon to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

    So we are not going into the future that you have depicted. Rather, we are already in the New Jerusalem as Paul states in both Hebrews 12:22-24 and Galatians 4:26 and we are converting Nations to come inside to join us in Covenant with our King and ruler over heaven and earth (Revelation 21:24-27).

    In short, any reading of Ezekiel 40-48 or Zechariah 14 (and passages like them) as literal is a COMPLETE undoing of the completed work of Jesus Christ. The world will NEVER go back to the days of mandatory circumcision, feasts, blood sacrifices, etc. Such a move would cause Christ's work to become null and void.
  12. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    Matthew 3.8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    3.9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    3.10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
  13. engrapho

    engrapho New Member

    (Rom 9:8 NIV) ...it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
  14. Noa

    Noa Member

    What a horrible statement you made! You must be kidding! :mad:

    Do not read or to know, but learn and understand Rom.9-11 very very well (the whole Bible I suggest!)! Read also Jer.31 and Hos.2! Be carefull with your opinion about the orthodotic Jews and the Israëli´s and the mercy of G´d concerning them... About that G´d gave us all a very energetic warning!!! And I´m affraid you are ignore thàt warning!

    And: For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Rom. 11:25-26
    I do not think G´d will brake His promise (Jer.31:25 till the end). Don´t ya? :mad:
  15. Noa

    Noa Member

    Read that christians are seeds of Abraham by believe concerning etarnal life. Paul never talk about as nation instead of the Jews. Overhere we call this ´replacement-theory´. And that is NOT from G´d... G´d will never break one promise! Please, ask the Roeach ha-Kodesh (Holy Spirit) for wisdom, because you really need His input...
  16. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    Greetings engrapho,

    These verse makes it plain.

    Rom 4
    16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all ,

    Rom 8
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God , they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption , whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    Rom 2
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart , in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

  17. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    Don't be fooled, Israel will have their day, and Christ will rule and reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years....

    franklin: Don't be fooled?! When does this thousand years begin? When does it end? Is it literal or symbolic? I like you rollin was fooled for many years by your futuristic teachings! Is not Christ reigning now? If not then where is He? Is He off somewhere else in the universe and Christians are living on earth without Him? Something you should ponder my good brother.
  18. Noa

    Noa Member

    What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there in circumcision? Much in every way; chiefly because unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? *God forbid! Yea, let God be true, though every man a liar. As it is written: "That Thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and mightest overcome when Thou art judged." Rom.3:1-4.

    Maybe I do not understand... I talk about the nation of Israël. Paul speaks about mercy and judgement.

    Maybe I lost the way in this thread :scratch:

  19. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member


    Acts 15
    14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

    The rest of these words are written to us by the Apostle Paul, a zealous Jewish Pharisee; (Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question .)

    Gal 3
    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
    18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    Eph 2
    Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


    Rom 2
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart , in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Rom 3
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    The law in view above is the Law of Moses, that has been done away with by the "Lamb of God" whom Jehovah Jireh has provided himself as a sin offering.

    The Apostle Paul explains it perfectly in Ephesions above, how that the Law of Moses has been done away with.

    Therefore we are now under a NEW COVENANT. Jer 31;31

    Israel is the total SUM of all those who will have believed God, both jews and gentiles, and trust Jesus as Lord and Savior.

    See Hebrews 11, for the great men of Faith, who have lived and died, believeing GOD's promises.

    Historical Note: In the end Paul the Apostle was killed for his faith in Jesus Christ .

    God bless you as you seek him, thru his WORD.

  20. Noa

    Noa Member



    What I have learnt is one thing: to read the Bible word for word (literally and symbolic). The Bible-part you gave is about the the council where only Pharisees and the Sadducees had make the decisions. I do not talk about that kind of people. Yeshua knew very well to stop the mouth of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Because Paul was under influence of His Spirit, he did the same. But you have to understand the Pharisees and the Sadducees were in these days powerful sects. Not every Jew of Israëli in that time was a Pharisees or the Sadducees. And besides that, there were good people among these Jewish sects.

    I do not understand what you are telling me with that chapter. This is about the Law. Not about the nation Israël! It is about the Law, Yeshua fulfilled the Law. Yeshua IS the Law.
    Verse 12: commonwealth of Israel! Australia is a part of the Commonwealth of Great Brittany! But an Australian is not a Brit! The Christian is a part of the commonwealth of Israel, but is not literally a Jew or part of the nation itself (the 12/13 tribes!). That commonwealth through Yeshua give the gentile access by one Spirit unto the Father (verse 18).

    I also repeat mine other posting.
    Once again I’m not talking about the Law. I’m talking about being a Jew/Israeli in the nation of Israël.
    true, I won’t disagree.
    Again I won’t disagree.
    I agree again.
    I disagree. You are telling me now you are Jew too because of your faith in Yeshua. You are a ´Jew´ in mercy and because of that you are a part of the commonwealth of Israel. This because of your faith and believe in Yeshua. Paul tells that exactly. But there is a big difference between the nation and the commonwealth of that nation.

    And think about this. If you are right, why did Paul say at the gentiles: But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. (Rom.11:18). If the gentiles in Yeshua are Jews, they are also the originals olive, the root! But he said that the gentiles may not acting like they are more than the originals, because, Christians are
    a wild olive tree wert grafted in among them (verse 17). In these part of Romans Paul make a big difference between the gentile and the Jew, BUT through Yeshua they are one olive tree. But he didn’t say you are the originals olives! So there is a difference between the Jew (the nation Israel) and the gentile (the commonwealth of Israel), but NOT in love and mercy through Yeshua!

    Yes, but I do not see what it has to do with the nation of Israël.

    I think it is surprising why some Christians want to be a ´Jew´. It won’t happen. Be glad, otherwise you also have to take the burden what a Jew have and not only the delight! Because in the holocaust not one Christian said (let say, we never heard of this kind of story’s over here): ´Hay, because of my believe in Yeshua I’m a Jew too and because I have the delight through Yeshua, give me a Megan David and I will be treated like a Jew, because I’m a part of G´ds nation!´ No offence to you, please take my word! If someone did that, he or she will have also rights concerning the holy land Israël.
    G´d promised the Jews and the Israëli´s they will be one nation again (after 4000 years of separation) and He will bring them back to the land He promised to Moshe (Moses) (This promise concerns short before the return of Yeshua and it started at 1947). That have nothing to do with Christians. The Christians won’t be there before our Messiah is back. When He is back all the nations will go to Sion to see and to :bow: King Yeshua! But the most Jews and Israëli´s will be there already (see the prophecy’s in the OT).

    I have a Jewish mother because of her mother and father, but they were all born in Christian family’s. Official I’m a Jew by blood (Halacha/HLCH) and inheritance but I believe with all my heart I’m the wild olive like you are. If you are a Jew because you are a Christian, that will make me a ´double Jew´ (by blood and by being a reborn Christian). Oh no. That is not true. I’m a Christian. But because of my blood and backgrounds I know a lot about ´my people´. I know their feelings and thoughts (cause hay, I have the genes also), because blood is thicker than mud. But I’m first of all a Christian and I’m very delightful and glad and proud to be a Christian).

    Another point: Peter and Paul disagree with one thing: because of the fact the first Christians were all Jews, Peter’s opinion was the gentile had to be a Jew (in literally way) first to become a Christian. Paul disagreed. Me too (later G´d gave Peter a vision and Paul was right). If to be a Christian makes you and me a literally a Jew, we have to do the Jews ways. But it is not necessary because we get the mercy of Yeshua by believe and faith in Him. That is what Paul meant by wild olive and the original ones and by the commonwealth of Israel (otherwise the Bible tells us we are one nation, but It tells, again: ´commonwealth of Israel´).

    Of course, u2 ;) IN Yeshua, because He is the Word.

    Although I won’t agree you are as Christian a part of the literally nation, I have respect for your opinion and your posting!

    P.s. look always at whom Paul had written his letters to ;) ... the gentiles and not the Jews. That´s why Messianic-Jews hold on to the first Law (613 mitwot)IN Yeshua and the are all reborn in Yeshua by baptising!!! Are they wrong. oh no! They are right. Yeshua came NOT to learn us that we have to ´forget´ the Law because of His fulfillment. But He told us that the first Law stil stands. These are His own words...He came to the Jew first (they have to hold on to the 613 mitwot if it is possible) and then to the Greek (they are -mitswot-free :D ).