Six lines of evidence, one common conclusion - evolution ain't going away

Nathan Poe

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LittleNipper said:
Did you ever think that those pretigious "Christian" Universities might just care more for THEIR prestige then their Christian witness?

Did you ever think that those prestigious "Christian" universities might just be under the influence of MIND-CONTROL RAYS from the planet Neptune?

Nip, as long as you're making up baseless accusations, you might as well get creative.
 
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Arik Soong

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Opethian said:
I think it's safe to say the evidence of evolution IS irrefutable. Just the vast amount of both small and large pieces of evidence from the entire spectrum of science from the DNA in our mitochondria to the amount of each element in the earth supporting a theory this radical should be enough to tell you evolution is on the best trail to the truth. Even if some links would be found to be false, the foundation of the theory is too solid now to be ever broken down. And as to why ID has an unfair advantage? ID has an unfair advantage because the majority of the world population hasn't got a clue about science...
Well, I was not arguing against evolution in my post so I do agree the evidence for evolution is irrefutable so maybe I did not argue my case in an eloquent way.

Arik Soong said:
I agree that ID has an unfair advantage, but this is simply because the evidence is in it's favor, for example, we don't rely on "unknown steps" or "future theories" as evidence for our theory. We rely on the data.

Hmm...if you think ID is giving up because you simply do not have an immediate answer to the origins of an alledgedly IC system, then you are right about the point of "the world population hasn't got a clue about science" because this approach to ID simply is not applying Occam's razor and simply is just labeling all of your ignorance "the supernatural deity you believe in (or alien creator for the Raelians out there or Francis Crick)." Well, about my assertion that ID relies on data, well show that data which supports abiogenesis. I would love to hear it. So what if I do point out numerous problems in the synthesis of beta-D-ribonucleotides on the prebiotic earth to critique the RNA World? Will you use invoke "future theories" or "subsequent steps" to explain away most of the problems? So people like Mike Gene, Krauze, and I rely on the data. Also how do you respond the fine tuning argument? Will you say some unknown law would make it extremely likely that the parameters would fall into the life permitting range or a multitude of other universes. Surely, these explanations might be true by they are not grounded in empirical evidence. See IDists (not those creationist on the Dover School Board who want to impose their religion on students) rely on the data not "future theories" or "unknown steps."

Note: I am not advocating the idea that ID is a science as it fails to meet the criterion on several levels.
 
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Arik Soong

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caravelair said:
you keep saying this. how does ID rely on data? how does evolution rely on "future theories" or "unknown steps"?
This is clearly an ad hominem as you are trying to portray me as a creationist because I questioned your naturalistic beliefs. Where was I questioning the theory of evolution? I was asking you to defend against my assertion that your counter to the fine-tuning argument or abiogenesis relies on "future theories" or "unknown steps." I asked you to provide empirical support for the multiverse. You might invoke M-theory but as of yet, it is untestable so this fulfills "future theories." Well, IDers like to front-load, that relies on data. Go to www.IDthink.net to learn more about this beautiful concept.
 
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Opethian

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Whereas the theory of evolution has gaps of knowledge, that will very likely be uncovered later, building a nice smooth surface over time, the ID "theory", or shall I say fantasy, which is much more accurate, is one big giant gap of intelligence, that will never be filled.
 
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Nooj

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Arik Soong said:
Well, IDers like to front-load, that relies on data. Go to www.IDthink.net to learn more about this beautiful concept.
Front loading meaning 'we don't have the data now, but we're sure we'll have it in the future' right? So you're not pushing for ID to be put in the science classroom yet?
 
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Tomk80

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Arik Soong said:
This is clearly an ad hominem as you are trying to portray me as a creationist because I questioned your naturalistic beliefs. Where was I questioning the theory of evolution? I was asking you to defend against my assertion that your counter to the fine-tuning argument or abiogenesis relies on "future theories" or "unknown steps." I asked you to provide empirical support for the multiverse. You might invoke M-theory but as of yet, it is untestable so this fulfills "future theories." Well, IDers like to front-load, that relies on data. Go to www.IDthink.net to learn more about this beautiful concept.
You made the claim in several threads that ID relies on data. I have asked in another thread for you to explain to me how this is so. I have asked for you to explain to me how ID is anything else but 'god in the gaps'. I think Caravalair has a valid point in asking for this evidence to be shown by you.
 
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Nooj

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In this short piece, Arik Soong writes that intelligent design is based on a question.
Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause?
Here is my objection to the question-based outlook of ID.

The scientific method works from observations first and then the hypotheses come second. Intelligent design on the other hand, works from the assumption that a designer exists. It then tries to find evidence for this belief.

Science = observation first. Hypotheses (the equivalent of the IDist's question) comes second.
ID = questions (the hypothesis) first. observations to support belief comes later.

ID doesn't work scientifically. It goes against everything the scientific method and methodological naturalism stands for.

In a world where religion never arose, do you think the concept of intelligent design would have ever been created? In this hypothetical world, without the influence of creationists (who have been the historical roots of the ID movement), could ID have arisen...scientifically?

So what I'm really asking is: Could the scientific method have ever brought about a concept like ID?

IMPO, I don't think so. ID is fundamentally (as you have stated) an ask questions-first, look for evidence later paradigm. If it was forced to start from looking at the evidence first and NOT asking questions about God, ID would have failed.
 
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caravelair

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Arik Soong said:
This is clearly an ad hominem as you are trying to portray me as a creationist because I questioned your naturalistic beliefs.

i asked you a question. how can a question possibly be an ad hominem attack? that makes no sense at all.

also, you failed to answer my question. how does ID rely on data? how does evolution rely on "future theories"? please explain.

I asked you to provide empirical support for the multiverse.

the multiverse concept is not falsifiable as it is impossible to detect or know about anything outside our universe. therefore it is impossible to provide empirical support for this concept. likewise, it is impossible to have evidence for god, as this is also an unfalsifiable concept. both explain "fine tuning" equally well, and so there is no reason to consider one of these explanations more likely to be correct than the other. thus, fine tuning cannot be evidence for the existence of a god. that's the point.
 
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mikeynov

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caravelair said:
i asked you a question. how can a question possibly be an ad hominem attack? that makes no sense at all.

also, you failed to answer my question. how does ID rely on data? how does evolution rely on "future theories"? please explain.



the multiverse concept is not falsifiable as it is impossible to detect or know about anything outside our universe. therefore it is impossible to provide empirical support for this concept. likewise, it is impossible to have evidence for god, as this is also an unfalsifiable concept. both explain "fine tuning" equally well, and so there is no reason to consider one of these explanations more likely to be correct than the other. thus, fine tuning cannot be evidence for the existence of a god. that's the point.
What part of 'please leave out the ID nonsense' was confusing?

Is it that hard to respect the wishes of the person who made the thread? This crap does NOT belong in this thread.
 
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Mocca

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Likely, someone already refuted you, but I'm too lazy to check.

Protos said:
What's basically being said here is that we have similar genetic markers with the other great apes as point A states. If you haven't noticed ferns should be identical to us if it wasn't for the difference in chromosomes in each sex cell. Otherwise everything else checks out exactly the same as us. My biology teacher said that this was because we were all genetically related due to our common 64-base DNA composition, which suggested as she said that, "Life found one way, and stuck with it." At the time I may have still believed in evolution, but I remember thinking that it was stupid.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense. I believe what you're trying to say is that humans and ferns have similar DNA; the only difference being the number of chromosomes. This argument does not refute the point about ERVs at all, but I'll continue anyway. Humans and ferns have extremely varying DNA. The first point in the OP was about shared ERVs at common locations, so I'll provide an example related to ERVs. Humans have many unique ERVs that ferns do not.

Try and understand ERVs better before attacking it by stating that humans and ferns have extremely similar DNA, disregarding the number of chromosomes.

Point two was addressed.

Hardly. Buho was referring to something completely different. The tails the OP were referring to were tails with bone, muscle, nerve tissue, and other tissue.

Point 3:

With a set of false premises I can make a relation between metals evolving from nonmetals (Which I know happens from nuclear reactions, but for argument's sake, non-nuclear reaction such as the time-based old false belief of alchemy). I can say that since all the lighter elements are non metals and later on come the metals, that eventually nonmetals became metals and thus the hierarchical branch of chemistry is solved by the initial notion that since all nonmetals came first, then they must be the source of the creation of metals (Which I know happens in stars).

I don't know how this is an accurate analogy. The OP states that YEC, OEC, or ID do not predict the existence of nested heirarchies, while the Theory of Evolution does. Come to think of it, YEC, OEC, and ID do not predict anything.

If you're wondering about this "prediction" stuff, I suggest you read up on the Philosophy of science, as it is likely that you have not yet taken any courses on it.

Point 4: For all you know those could be deformed monkey skulls. There have been so few found that it's unlikely that they are anything which evolution boasts them to be. In fact there is almost no evidence on the transmutation of species by fossils that this area of evolution is rarely mentioned.

Please explain how monkey skulls can be deformed, as you say. In addition, there are many old skulls in existence.

And don't forget other fossils - an earlier poster mentioned invertibrate fossils.

As can be seen here, evolutionist change things around as much as they claim Creationists do to conform their theory even though unsupported by evidence:



5: Lamarck made the theory of gradualism of the change of the Earth's surface through geological processes. He is one of the people Darwin stole from.


Lamarck's theories were preposterous. (http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/lamarckism.html) His model of change in species was that body parts that an organism used more became bigger or more functional and adapted to what they were doing, and then these changes were passes on to their offspring. Thus, all species were getting gradually more "perfect." By his views humans were the pinnacle of perfection and all species would gradually change to become humans. Modern genetics now show that genetic information is stored in DNA, which does not change (or is not supposed to). Fitness, muscular strength, etc. is not passed down to an organism's offspring.

Darwin's theory of evolution is completely different from Lamarck's ideas and concurs with modern biology and genetics. The idea that species change were around long before Darwin arrived. Most scientists agreed that species changed over time. The question was: how? So, he did not "steal" from Lamarck, rather, find an explanation for a fact largely accepted.

Also, about evolutionists changing the facts: the facts themselves aren't changing, although new facts are being found. What is really changing is the theory, which changes to explain the facts better. If you have any more questions about the scientific method, I suggest you read up on the philosophy of science and the scientific method.

6: Keep in mind that I used to be an evolutionist, so my mind is in no way biased on this matter. Fossils cannot be facts for evolution and they aren't. Evolution is a theory that proposes to explain the evidence. This same evidence cannot be used to support the same theory.

About your claim that since a theory is meant to explain evidence, the evidence cannot be used to support the theory, I'll simply provide an example. The theory of gravity predicts and explains that things on earth will fall towards the center of the earth. Since things really DO fall towards the center, that cannot be used as evidence for the theory of gravity. What you propose is that all evidence predicted or explained by a theory cannot be used as evidence. Because of this, if scientists followed what you say, all theories would have no evidence. Again, I'll suggest you read up on the scientific method.

This is a point that I'm surprised wasn't mentioned as I recently read it in Darwin's: The origin of species. Embryology:

He stated that some earlier species would seem to have no relation with the horse, but when examined in the womb, all evidence is that all species that are with hoofs were related.

On that, no comment, but as for the question of if evolution was wrong then why has it stuck around so long despite the vast amounts of scientists and populice who were willing to disprove that, who were ardently believing in God.
Although that last sentence didn't ring out in falsity, I'm going to have to say one thing: Christians can believe in evolution, and ardent believers can believe in evolution.
Well the geocentric theory survived 1,500 years, ironically under the Church, that made the people believe it, but in time it was disproven. Unfortunately Nicholas Coppernicus' book at the opening page was written that it was mere fiction, which to his joy he didn't see.

How does this have any bearing on evolution? The geocentric 'theory' was made long before the scientific method came around. At that point, evidence supported both geocentrism and heliocentrism and therefore there was no reason to assume geocentrism, and therefore geocentrism was assumed.

Evolution is different: evidence supports evolution moreso than YEC, OEC, or ID and now we have the scientific method. As an example, ERVs do not support YEC, OEC, or ID and none of the latter are scientific theories, yet ERVs support the Theory of Evolution, which is a scientific theory.

As for a challange:
A direct quote from The Origin of Species

It is just possible by the theory, that one of two living forms might have descended from the other; for instance, a horse from a tapir; and in this case direct intermediate links will have existed between them. But such a case would imply that one form had remained for a very long period unaltered, whilst its descendants had undergone a vast amount of change; and the principle of competition between organism adn organism, between child and parent, will render this a very rare event; for in all cases the new and improved forms of life tend to supplant the old and unimproved forms.
By the theory of natural selection all living species have been connected with the parent-species of each genus, by differences not greater than we see between the natural and domestic barieties of the same species at the present day; and these parent-species, now generally extinct, have in their turn been similarly connected with a more ancient forms; and so on backwards, always converging to the common ancestor of each great class. So that the number of intermediate and transitional links, between all living and extinct species, must have been inconceivably great. But assuredly, if this theory be true, such have lived upon the earth.

In other words ladies and gents, no explanation as to why or how all the species we supposedly evolved from stayed behind.

It is obvious you do not understand the passage you're citing. Darwin is saying that it is possible that one species existing today may have descended from another species existing today, but that it is unlikely and has no explanation for.

The species humans evolved from did not stay behind, a common misconception made about evolution.

Learn more about the Theory of Evolution before trying to dispute a (150 year old) passage using misconceptions and strawmen.

Further more:

He meant that some even though protected came out distorted.

I don't see how this attacks evolution. Would you care to explain using more than vague one-liners?

This is the real reason why evolution is really going nowhere.

If this is the reason why evolution isn't going anywhere then we're set to go.

Just so you know, it is going places. I have to go now, so I'll provide examples later.

Before doubting evolution, I hope you learn more about it. Many or most Creationists doubt evolution due to a lack of understanding.

I hope you try to understand Evolution better in the future. :)
 
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mikeynov

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Mocca said:
Woo. Sup mikey?

I liked this thread. Why not try making another one in a similar vein, so people wouldn't have to read through 236 posts?
Well, they could just read the first couple of opening posts honestly and then respond from there.

I haven't felt very inspired to write much on this topic in a long while. Largely because I realized how ridiculous this whole 'debate' really was.
 
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