SCORE ANOTHER POINT FOR THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

rollingTHUNDER,

I will make them envious by those who are not a people;
I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.
22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of death below.
It will devour the earth and its harvests
and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

Click to expand...

I just wanted to point out that, I am post-trib and the above verse can be interpreted fine within the timeline that I hold also. The gospel provokes the Jews to jealousy as mentioned in this thread. Then the tribulation period hits which provokes the unsaved world to jealousy resulting in the hardening of their hearts from the plagues that befall them, as in the days of Egypt. Then after the tribulation period the Lord rids us of our enemies at the battle of Armageddon, just as he rid the Hebrews of the enemies @ the Red Sea crossing. Resulting in the Song of Moses:

Exo 15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Exo 15:2 The LORD [is] my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he [is] my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
Exo 15:3 The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name.
Exo 15:4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
Exo 15:5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
Exo 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
Exo 15:7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, [which] consumed them as stubble.

The above scripture clearly shows the context of God's wrath. Of all that it was appointed too, none survived. It was after a time of tribulation. The plagues testified to Egypt that the God of Israel is God. Pharaoh in return persecuted the Hebrews all the harder tempting the Lord. All that is faithful to the Revelation account. The problem is that most pre-trib cannot see it because of a refusal for the truth. Rather they would chose to enforce their view upon the scripture hoping it comes to fulfillment. The Deuteronomy passage states this:

22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of death below.
It will devour the earth and its harvests
and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

Click to expand...

During the tribulation unsaved people survive the plagues that befall them. God purposes this to provoke them to repentance (as he did to pharaoh and the Egyptians), however the unsaved harden their hearts.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

During the wrath of God @ the Rea Sea did God seek repentance?
Did God seek repentance from those outside of the Ark of Noah?
How about Sodom and Gomorrah when wrath was displayed?

Of course not. The whole problem with pre-trib is the thought that the wrath starts at the beginning of the tribulation. The tribulation period is not purposed for God's wrath! The wrath is purposed when the Lamb returns to the Mount of Olives, in like manner that he left; then pours His wrath out upon the armies gathered against Jerusalem @ Armageddon. This is where Christ will cast the horse and his rider into the sea as in the days of Egypt. Where also the redeemed shall sing the Song of Moses again.


Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.

This event is when this will be fulfilled;

22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of death below.
It will devour the earth and its harvests
and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

Click to expand...

and the jealousy of Israel will be sometime before it. The wrath of the Lamb is after the tribulation, not during and not at the beginning. Therefore, the arguments given to use this scripture as pretrib proof is still wanting. It never mentions that the jealousy is the rapture or that it is before the tribulation; it only mentions that it is before His wrath.

Take care,
Whiteknight

[font=&quot]Hi Whiteknight

Quote
[/font]Then after the tribulation period the Lord rids us of our enemies at the battle of Armageddon, just as he rid the Hebrews of the enemies @ the Red Sea crossing. Resulting in the Song of Moses:

The tribulation period is not purposed for God's wrath! The wrath is purposed when the Lamb returns to the Mount of Olives, in like manner that he left; then pours His wrath out upon the armies gathered against Jerusalem @ Armageddon. [font=&quot]
[/font]End Quote

This is just not true.

The only one that defeats armies around Jerusalem is the AC. He does so with the miracles of fire from Heaven in the sight of men. he does this at the Fifth Trumpet. When he appears (out of the pit) as an Angel of Light that is he pretends to be Jesus.

The battle of Armageddon is fought not at Jerusalem but at Megiddo Which means "gathering place of troops".

Here is the main course of events.

1. 144,000 sealed these are Christians only Christians can be sealed read Corinthians and others just because you are Christian does not mean you are not a descendant of the 12 tribes. The Corinthians where even though they thought they were gentile.

2. The first four Plagues / Trumpets / Bowls as they are all the same....... EVENT FOR EVENT. The 144,000 Witnesses sent out in groups of Two will warn Christianity to repent or receive the Plagues. Christianity will not Listen instead they will continue to Honour the God of Forces or the God of War. Which is the God they Honour Now. War will have broken out as the world spins into utter Chaos from what seems to have been a series of devastating natural Disasters. Including an Asteroid Stike and 1/3 of the sun going sun spot storm causing radiation to bombard the earth wiping out Power grids, communications, and setting the World on Fire. WW III will have broken out as the Arabs and the modern state of Israel go to war over water and everything else.

3. The AC will be released from the Pit he will appear out of Nowhere and Destroy the Arab Armies that have surrounded and trampled on Jerusalem he will destroy them with Fire from Heaven in the sight of men. By this miracle he will deceive Christianity into believing he is Jesus returned. The Sun Spot Storms will subside . A Great Era will be announced the AC will rebuild Jerusalem claiming it is Holy Jerusalem out of heaven as in RV.

4. Of the Ten major Christian Faiths five will believe the AC is Jesus Returned and Five will Have the truth of the prophets That is they will have the Oil (word of God) in their lamps and not be caught unaware of the True Identity of the AC. These people will be hunted down and Murdered (judged as it will be called) for refusing to say the AC is Jesus returned . They will be hunted down by the other Five Christian Faiths it will be Christian against Christian in the largest slaughter of Innocent blood the world has ever seen or ever will see. This is The Great tribulation.

5. The Ac will Gather all the Christian Countries to do battle against the last Non Christian Kings that is the kings of the East. they will meet at Megiddo.

6. Jesus comes as a thief in the night. This is the First resurrection and Rapture.

7. We show back up on Earth with Jesus He captures the AC and the False prophet and casts them into the lake of fire (perhaps the sun) Jesus destroys every soldier in Every Army on the face of the Earth. And so will begin the 1,000 years peace and men will learn war no more and the Nations will not lift up sword. And the Lie of honour in war and murder as taught to mankind by the fallen Angels will be taught no more.[font=&quot] [/font]

its always been my firm belief that the Rapture will happen before the Tribulation. why would God let His own people suffer through that horrible chain of events?

Hi

Ummmm who said God would let his people suffer.

I believe if you have washed your robe in the blood of the Lamb you will be passed over when it comes to harm from his wrath you are kept from harm..............However you will not be spared Tribulation which comes at the hands of the Followers of the AC.

Wrath is from God...........................it is punishment for unrepentant Christianity.......................... If you are on Earth you will see his Wrath but not be hurt by it………………….Tribulation is the Test of Satan to try and turn believers away from God to follow him. If you are on Earth when it happens you will be Murdered except a very small number at the end will be raptured………….. most if not all will be murdered.



Quote

why would God let His own people suffer through that horrible chain of events?

End Quote



You mean Like Peter Paul all the early saints and the hundreds of Thousands that were murdered in the Arena. Why would God let that happen……………………..because it is what those who have washed their robes do they walking willingly to their deaths at the Hands of the Followers of the AC lifting not a finger in defense of their lives.

JTF, well said. My heart yearns to be one of those....He encourages me on. And His question is to each of us.."Will you be one of those?" That He may be glorified.

rollinTHUNDER said:

Congradulations cadworm,
You may be the only one who didn't trip over the verse I used about Moses. I didn't start this thread to prove the pre-trib theory, but just to show one of the many reasons why I believe the rapture will happen before the tribulation. But I certainly wouldn't build the whole case around it.

Instead of looking at the verse I quoted, most of the others thought I was referring to what Paul was teaching in Romans, and some have taken it as far as the book of Acts. But actually, the prophecy didn't originate in Romans, as Paul wasn't even born yet when Moses delivered these words. It came from the song of Moses.

I knew that many wouldn't be able to see it, but it's funny that they have dumped the words of Moses for Paul's instead. Maybe I should go back to where there was no Paul? Of course, I fully expect that not everyone will be able to see it still. Not everyone with eyes is able to perceive, but I'll go back to where it came from. I hope they don't trip over the book of Deuteronomy this time instead.

Deuteronomy 32:19-25 - "The LORD saw this and rejected them
because he was angered by his sons and daughters.
20 "I will hide my face from them," he said,
"and see what their end will be;
for they are a perverse generation,
children who are unfaithful.
21 They made me jealous by what is no god
and angered me with their worthless idols.
I will make them envious by those who are not a people;
I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.
22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of death below.
It will devour the earth and its harvests
and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

23 "I will heap calamities upon them
and spend my arrows against them.
24 I will send wasting famine against them,
consuming pestilence and deadly plague;
I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts,
the venom of vipers that glide in the dust.
25 In the street the sword will make them childless;
in their homes terror will reign.
Young men and young women will perish,
infants and gray-haired men.

Click to expand...

Your verse in Deut. reminds me of Hosea 1:9 where God speaks about Ephraim becoming "loammi" - not my people, but later on becoming like "Sons of the Living God". I believe Ephraim is the mighty warrior tribe that has sprouted back to life in the United States (pleasant place) as the Church of true believers having the Holy Spirit. Perhaps a spiritual nation is not recognized as a physical nation...?

I lean towards believing that the Church has to stay behind (no pre-trib rapture) and do as scripture says in defending its brother Judah as watchmen, for they must unite, the two houses of Israel, before the end comes, as Ezekiel 37 points out.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Hosea 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.
14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Ezekial 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Jeremiah 31:6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

Zech 10:6-10 I will strengthen the house of Judah, and will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them back, because I have had compassion on them; and they will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Yahweh their Elohim and I will answer them. Ephraim will be like a mighty man, and their heart will be glad as if from wine; indeed, their children will see it and be glad, their heart will rejoice in Yahweh. I will whistle for them to gather them together, for I have redeemed them; and they will be as numerous as they were before. When I scatter them among the peoples, they will remember Me in far countries, and they with their children will live and come back. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt and gather them from Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon until no room can be found for them.

Breetai said:

Sorry Paul, I really don't follow you very well. That's fine. I just wrote 22 pages on Mormonism, so my brain is tired!

Click to expand...

i hear you! I just finished 40 pages on the first two chapters of Ephesians.

There are many circumstances where the Lord has delivered His people before He releases His wrath. Noah and Lot come to mind. Why not believers before the tribulation.

Click to expand...

Referencing Noah in connection with this point seems a bit perplexing. Noah was not swept away by the flood, but neither did he escape it. Noah was preserved in the midst of the flood (1Pe 3:20). God protected him as judgment washed all around him (2Pe 2:5). If as you say Noah pictures believers in respect to tribulation, the point is surely that they must trust God to bring them through it just as he kept Noah’s family in that judgment.
Clearly, Scripture incorporates Noah’s experience into the theology of baptism. And this has huge ramifications for the church. But what does baptism define the Christian life to be? Is the sacrament a symbol of escape from judgment or a day of reckoning with God’s death-dealing judgment waters? In other words, what is the nature of the Christian life?

Paul expresses his opinion in Ro 6:1-18 (and elsewhere). There, we find expressions such as "baptism into death" (Ro 6:4) and "baptized into his death" (vs. 3). While we hold the Protestant (reformed) interpretation of baptism (primarily refers to the Spirit’s ministry), Scripture leaves us no choice at this point but to concur with our baptistic brothers (and sisters) as they insist that baptism proclaims death. Further, this death is the believer’s identification with Christ precisely at that point where Christ endures his Father’s wrath! This is so much the case that Paul says that he is crucified with Christ (Ga 2:20)!

Paul makes identification with Christ, it is normative and definitive to the Christian life. If we identify with Christ as he endures God’s judgment, to reject endurance of judgment is also a denial of baptism which is a denial our identification with Christ. So what is a Christian? A Christian is one who lives out of the acceptance of God’s judgment. This does not bode well for any who hold that baptism symbolizes escape from judgment. But note two things. First, this death is symbolic. Christ endured death so that we could live. Second, while symbolic, it is also real. For baptism also proclaims that the believer dies so that (s)he may live new lives to God (Ro 6:1-7). So while dead, we do in fact live.


But back in 1Pe 3, we see that Noah’s experience is a picture of baptism which now saves us! This is the great irony! Baptism is a picture of judgment and of salvation at the same time! Baptism witnesses death and life concurrently! On one hand, it accepts God’s just judgment; on the other, it accepts his mercy and grace. So baptism proclaims the gospel. In repentance, we accept God’s judgment upon us and our sin and take by faith God’s merciful offer of Christ who interposes himself between God and man (as he is both).

The judgment that we accept in the sacramental symbol, Christ accepted on the cross. So apprehending Christ by faith, we find in him the answer of a good conscience before God (1Pe 3:21). It is not the removal of filth from the body with water. It is the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit whom he poured out on us lavishly through Jesus Christ (Ti 3:5-6) with the result that we are not heirs to the hope of eternal life (vs 7). That is why Peter next refers to Christ’s ascension and session to the throne of God (1Pe 3:22). It is from there that he poured out the Spirit whose work the sacraments attests.

Does the sacrament symbolize God’s death-dealing judgment or escape from judgment? The answer is that it does both. Dying now, we become heirs of the hope of life (Ti 3:7).

Several other points should be made.

It behooves us to take care that the deathly import of the sacrament is not lost. The early church saw only too clearly the close connection between baptism and death. We don’t. It behooves us to consider well that the very word, "witness" translates the word "martyr." While in our view the Revelation for the most part doesn’t intent to outline events, it does portray the future as though all Christians will be martyred. We say "as though" because while not predicting that all Christians will be killed literally, baptism does proclaim that all Christians–as witnesses– (martuj) are ready to die rather than to compromise with the beast. There is no middle ground. So over them he has no power. But also, all who are ready to die in witness to Christ "live and reign" with him (Re 20:4)! All who receive God’s grace and righteousness will "reign in life" through Christ (Ro 5:17). So even if our baptism does require real martyrdom (faithful witness), we conquer overwhelmingly!

Sadly, we base eschatology on esoteric interpretive systems. Instead we should affirm the profound eschatological import of such profoundly basic doctrines as the incarnation of Christ, his circumcision, his baptism, his death, his resurrection, his ascension into glory, and his session to the throne of God, the outpouring of the Spirit and the gathering of the elect. All of these belong to the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is sad that some seem more attracted to speculative ideas than to sound teaching (2Ti 4:3-4).

It is equally sad that by reading the Revelation primarily as an outline of specific events rather than a display of profoundly theological themes that under-gird events in all times, we impoverish our theology. Therefore we have also lost the word by which God would forge in our hearts and minds a vision that we need desperately to respond to the social, political, economic, ethical and above all spiritual crisis in which our culture is sinking.

The Revelation is a magnificent work, a capstone vision that weaves together Biblical motifs in profoundly important theological ways. But it also sets before us great cost and inconvenience. If we read it as a list of events and project it all into the future, there will be no pressing need to think seriously about our mission. The world is going to hell in a hand-cart! But why should we care! We’ve been baptized, so we’ll be out of here before it gets really bad! We have to fight the temptation to slide from that premise into a narcissistic absorption into the culture around us. We don't always do so well with that.

Welcome to Laodicea.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

Open your eyes. Look around. We are already living in the middle of the Tribulation. Try reading Revelation chapter 6 in the context of 20th century history. Then read 2 Thessalonians ch. 2 and the prayer of Yahshua in John ch. 17, specifically verses 15-20.

Ebed-Yahweh said:

Open your eyes. Look around. We are already living in the middle of the Tribulation. Try reading Revelation chapter 6 in the context of 20th century history. Then read 2 Thessalonians ch. 2 and the prayer of Yahshua in John ch. 17, specifically verses 15-20.

Click to expand...

I am not too sure what you mean by the CAPITOLIZED word "Tribulation". Jesus said:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Is it this "tribulation" (small t) that you are speaking of or are you speaking of:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Then I will know whether to agree with you or to "bark" at you.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I used the word Tribulation only because so many Protestant evangelicals refer to all the events prophesied in the pages of Revelation as such. What I really mean is that many of the those prophecies have already been fulfilled. I believe that at least four, if not five, of the seals have already been opened.

The following is my interpretation of the Revelation ch. 6 as compared with 20th century history:

The Seven-Sealed Scroll

The First Seal - And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering and to conquer.

White horse. White race. Europeans. The Age of Discovery and Exploration. The British Empire. European colonization and conquest of the earth. World domination.
All of this culminates in WWI, 1914-1918. Over 8 million dead, 21 million wounded. And the world-wide influenza epidemic of 1918-1919 (which may have started in the apalling conditions of trench warfare) killed 20 million people soon thereafter.


The Second Seal - And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Red horse. Red menace. Atheistic Communism. Become a full-fledged ideology in the mid-late 1800's. Communists took power in Russia, the first country in which they did so, in 1917. Revolution and civil war followed. Stalin would later institute quite possibly the most ruthless and brutal authoritarian state the world had had ever seen up until that time. 10-20 million of his own people perished as a result.


The Third Seal - And when he had opened the the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Black horse. Black Tuesday. The October 1929 crash of the New York Stock Exchange which led to the Great Depression. Massive unemployment, low wages, and low prices. Universal hunger and starvation. Famine. Other nations around the world suffered even greater depridations than the United States. In 1932, Russia endured a famine which left more than 7 million dead. And lets not forget the Great Dust Bowl of the 30's which caused a major drought in the U.S., forcing many Mid-westerners to migrate.


The Fourth Seal - And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And Power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Pale horse. Death. Hell. World War II. Greatest conflict in the known history of the human race. 50 million dead. Closely followed by the Cold War, the battles of which claimed the lives of how many untold millions? The effective results of these events, these dark and bloody conflicts, dominate the earth's political, military, and economic scene to this day. And what with the atom bomb, nuclear proliferation; all the various deadly weapons of mass destruction; it seems there is no turning back. The world is a on a collison course with destiny. But will it be the salvation of mankind, or our complete and utter obliteration? Only time will tell.


The Fifth Seal - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held; And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Souls of the martyrs. Persecution. There was greater and more deadly persecution of Christians durning the 20th century than in all previous nineteen centuries of the faith's existence combined. Even as recently as in the year 2000, it is estimated that 170,000 Christians were slain as a result of religious persecution. Actually it seems to me that all forms of persecution grew more intense during the last century, whether it be religious, political, or ethnic/racial. While the attitiudes of some people in industrialized nations seem to be changing in some respects, the gulf in understanding and tolerance has increased exponentially in others. But before this last portentious year of 2001, we heard our leaders cry, "Peace, peace, when there is no peace." (Jeremiah 6:14b) "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:3)


The Sixth Seal - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rock of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Sounds just a little bit like nuclear war, don't you think?

An important thing to remember about these seals is that when they're open, they're open. They don't necessarily have any kind of expiration date. I believe all these conditions will exist in at least some part of the world, if not universally, up until the very end. Also, not until the sixth seal do we see something that might possibly be the overt, supernatural hand of Yahweh intervening in supernatural affairs. The first four horseman seem to be simply the epitome of the darkness and suffering which mankind is capable of inflicting upon itself. (Of course, this is not to say there is not a certain spiritual aspect to every event which transpires in our reality.)

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From post #21 in this thread:

Click to expand...

". . . the rapture will happen before the tribulation . . . "

Click to expand...

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will happen before the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

The danger with the pre-trib teaching is that it attempts to give the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them to suffer like that (Matthew 24:9-13); or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God's will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), we will have a better chance of not being offended and of not being deceived when the suffering comes, and we will be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.

From post #24 in this thread:

Click to expand...

". . . why would God let His own people suffer through that horrible chain of events? . . . "

Click to expand...

From the beginning, God has allowed His own people to suffer greatly during wars, persecutions, and natural disasters. In the same way, He will allow His own people to suffer greatly during the tribulation (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13).

From post #27 in this thread:

Click to expand...

". . . Where in the Bible does it say that Christians - those who are in Christ - suffer God's wrath? . . . "

Click to expand...

The church will go through the great tribulation (Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13) without being appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), for no one in heaven calls the seals (Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation God's wrath. They only call the vials of the tribulation (Revelation 16) God's wrath, and none of the vials will be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

From post #27 in this thread:

Click to expand...

". . . It is Jesus who opens the seals . . . "

Click to expand...

The fact that Jesus opens the seals (Revelation 6) in no way requires that they are God's judgments or wrath; Jesus could simply be permitting Satan to bring them about at that time; just as the fact that God repeatedly allowed Satan to bring about all that came upon Job (1-2) in no way requires that what came upon Job was is any way God's judgment or wrath; God simply permitted Satan to bring it about at that time.

From post #27 in this thread:

Click to expand...

". . . It is God angel's who blow the trumpets . . . "

Click to expand...

No scripture says or requires that any of the trumpets are God's wrath. The angels sounding the trumpets could simply be God's announcing the events which will be brought about by Satan and fallen angels. Just as Satan was allowed to cast down a third of the stars in Revelation 12:4, so during the first four trumpets and in the sixth trumpet he will be allowed by God to destroy a third part of the trees and a third part of the seas and a third part of the creatures in the sea and a third part of the ships and a third part of the rivers and a third part of the fountains of waters and darken a third part of the sun and a third part of the moon and a third part of the stars and slay a third part of mankind (Revelation 8:7-12; 9:15). The fifth trumpet cannot be God's wrath because Christians are not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), and the 144,000 Christians will be the only Christians who won't be tormented by the locusts (Revelation 9:4; 7:3-4). We know there will be other Christians on the earth besides the 144,000 during the trumpets because the 144,000 are subsequently seen in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5) while other Christians are still on the earth suffering and dying under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13). The sixth trumpet isn't the work of God but of an army led by the fallen angels who were bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14).

From post #27 in this thread:

Click to expand...

". . . The vials are full of the wrath of God . . . "

Click to expand...

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the saints will be raptured before the vials of wrath occur (Revelation 16). Just as neither Lot nor Noah were raptured into heaven before God's wrath against Sodom or the flood, so the church won't be raptured into heaven before God's wrath in the seven vials. Instead, Jesus promises a blessing to the faithful saints who are still on the earth during the sixth vial because by that time He still hasn't yet come as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Before the vials of wrath are poured out, faithful saints could be called by God to shut themselves in protected places on the earth which had been prepared beforehand (Isaiah 26:20-21), just like Noah was called to shut himself in the ark prepared before the flood (Genesis 7:1).

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

Amen, brother. Yahshua HaMashiach promised us that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth...and he will show us things to come. (John 16:13)

Dear Postrib,

Your post was very informative, and I agree with your assessment of the need for Christians to be aware that we will be on earth during (at least part of) the final 3.5 years of the final 7 years.

Below is what I believe the Lord taught me about 18-20 years ago concerning His second coming (this is also posted on another string--I am copying my own post). We differ just a little bit, as you will see.

When I first studied eschatology (using scripture, only--in English, Greek, and Hebrew translations), I didn't know anyone who believed as I came to believe based on the scriptures. God gave me a few opportunities to share what I had learned from my studies with some who were interested, but I never felt a need to be adamant about them--instead had a sense of 'wait for an appointed time'. Then, just a few weeks prior to Sept. 11, 2001, the Holy Spirit prompted me to refresh my memory about the things I had studied. As I did so, I discovered that several books had been written about the 'prewrath' rapture viewpoint. I had never heard this term, and I was amazed--especially since it seemed most of the authors had been studying the subject in during similar time frames to those I also studied (from 1978 to mid 1980s and beyond). I have since learned of many others who are beginning to believe in this viewpoint. It is my belief that as we draw ever nearer to the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the Spirit will shed more and more light on the scriptures and will raise up watchmen to warn the brethren so that they will not be lulled into a false sense of security and fall prey to the deceiver when the rapture does not occur when they expect it.

Here is the timeline:

I believe that the Bible teaches that Christians will be on earth during the seventieth week of Daniel (final 7 years before the return of Christ) but that we will not be on earth during the outpouring of the seven bowls of God's wrath. Where we Christians sometimes err is in not recognizing that the second half of the seventieth week (the last 3.5 years that follow the desecration of the temple by antichrist) is not God's wrath, but the wrath of Satan and man. Christ will return at the last trump (either Revelations 7th trumpet or a final trumpet call sounded by God, Himself that follows the 7th trump); His return will be visible to all on earth; those of them who pierced Him will look upon Him and mourn with a spirit of supplication and grace (the sealed ones of Israel who will eventually be greatly blessed); the dead in Christ will rise then those who are alive will meet Him in the clouds/air; the seven bowl judgments will be poured out on earth; during this time-frame Armageddon will occur; Christ and the redeemed will come to earth and Christ will overthrow Satan; the millennial reign will begin.

This is a brief and incomplete overview of the timeline, and we will understand more and more about the details as the time grows nearer and more events unfold.

Blessings in Christ to all who eagerly await His appearing. May we redeem the time by praying for and witnessing to lost souls with the same Love and that Christ portrayed for us by choosing to suffer on the Cross for our redemption.

Bondslave by Grace

Note: I do not believe that I or any other one individual can discern every moment of the endtime timing (we have part of it veiled by the sealing up of things spoken by the seven thunders of Rev 10:4, for one reason). From what I have read, even the prewrath believers differ subtly on timing of the Parousia event. I personally 'see' it very late in the seven year period. Never-the-less, am always open to listening to others' opinions and insight.

Greetings Ebed,

I have no problem with YOUR interpretation of the "seals". It is more along my line of thinking than many others, but I'll be honest, I have "heard" so many variations and I just have not gotten the mind of the Lord on them yet. But I see several scriptures in Revelation that go FROM the cross to the VERY END.

For instances, I see the 7 churches as being real literal churches at the time of John's writing, BUT I also see them as representative of a "predominant" spirit that has encompassed the church over the ages in this "dispensation of grace".

I also see:

Revelation 12:13-17 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

as having begun at the cross. The reason is:

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

There is another verse, I believe in the Gospels, that says something like: "Woe unto this world because of the one who is coming." Or words to that effect, and is speaking of Satan making his abode on this earth. I just can't find it right now. Any help would be appreciated.

So, as I said, I probably agree more with you than anyone else I have heard.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Bondservant by Grace said:

Here is the timeline:

I believe that the Bible teaches that Christians will be on earth during the seventieth week of Daniel (final 7 years before the return of Christ) but that we will not be on earth during the outpouring of the seven bowls of God's wrath. Where we Christians sometimes err is in not recognizing that the second half of the seventieth week (the last 3.5 years that follow the desecration of the temple by antichrist) is not God's wrath, but the wrath of Satan and man. Christ will return at the last trump (either Revelations 7th trumpet or a final trumpet call sounded by God, Himself that follows the 7th trump); His return will be visible to all on earth; those of them who pierced Him will look upon Him and mourn with a spirit of supplication and grace (the sealed ones of Israel who will eventually be greatly blessed); the dead in Christ will rise then those who are alive will meet Him in the clouds/air; the seven bowl judgments will be poured out on earth; during this time-frame Armageddon will occur; Christ and the redeemed will come to earth and Christ will overthrow Satan; the millennial reign will begin.

This is a brief and incomplete overview of the timeline, and we will understand more and more about the details as the time grows nearer and more events unfold.

Click to expand...

You have just written my thoughts and beliefs on this to a tee! I haven't read this whole thread but if you are the only one presenting this belief I want you to know you are not alone so don't give up on what your saying! I don't study eschatology and am not well versed in it as I would like to be, my calling is in other areas, but I appreciate when someone comes along as you have done and explains the belief in such a way as you have just done! LOL, you have put alittle joy in my heart today and for that I thank you!

What da yah say guys, how about I give some blessing and rep points for the newbie? I think so!

Blessings in Christ to all who eagerly await His appearing. May we redeem the time by praying for and witnessing to lost souls with the same Love and that Christ portrayed for us by choosing to suffer on the Cross for our redemption.

Click to expand...

And I pray also that this will be everyones main concern! I hope we never forget that even though we are all christians here and will be awarded life everlasting with Him we still have to answer for the things we have done and also the things we have done. When I think of all those times I could witness to the lost but chose to be silent, all the times when my selfishness has come in the way of showing God's glory in my life, I may be forgiven but I know the father will be asking me about it...

Note: I do not believe that I or any other one individual can discern every moment of the endtime timing (we have part of it veiled by the sealing up of things spoken by the seven thunders of Rev 10:4, for one reason). From what I have read, even the prewrath believers differ subtly on timing of the Parousia event. I personally 'see' it very late in the seven year period. Never-the-less, am always open to listening to others' opinions and insight.

Click to expand...

Again, I agree whole heartedly with what you have said! I hope you continue to speak your thoughts!

May the Lord always be your shield of defence

Neph

Van Kampen's and Rosenthal's Pre wrath position has the saints being raptured between the 6th and 7th seal, to appear in heaven at the 7th seal (the great mulititude in white robes coming out of the tribulation). Just for clarity, the saints in their view are not on earth during the 7 trumpets nor the 7 vials. The last trump to Van Kampen does not equal the 7th trump, rather he calls it the last trump of God, meaning God blows the trumpet as in Zechariah 9.