What is the theological reasoning behind the rejection of the Papacy?

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jukesk9

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I've been surfing and have read several Orthodox pages but have yet to find an article on why the Eastern Orthodox Churches reject the primacy of the Pope. They accept the Councils and their teachings prior to the 1054 split (which the majority were headed by a pope) so I'm wondering if anyone can show me a link or explain why it is they do not accept the Pope. For 10 centuries they did and then, bam, they don't anymore. Hisotrically, I understand (likewise with Henry VIII) the rejection of the papacy because of the political differences between the East and West. Theologically, I do not understand the rejection of the papacy. The closest thing I have found on one of their pages is a statement that the confession of Peter is the Rock on which the Church is founded. WOLS....this one surely is right up your alley!
 

Avila

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The pope is considered to be first among equals, not prime over all other bishops. Another problem they (and some other groups like some Continuing Anglican groups) have with the bishop of Rome being "pope" is the fact that Peter only died in Rome, but his main see had always been Jerusalem up until the time he went to Rome. Yet another problem they have is that on Pentecost, they believe that Christ gave to all followers of Christ, not just Peter, the gifts of binding and loosing, and the Spirit. This is just very general, and I am only beginning to study it, so I'm sure Wols can answer better than I. Or, if Anglican Father comes on sometime soon, he can answer that. He is better studied at this sort of thing than I am.
 
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jukesk9

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Thanks. All I really knew (or so I thought) was that the Greeks thought the primate to be in Constantinople and thus the rejection of Rome after 1054. Anglican Father, I see you're browsing right now, maybe you could shed some light on this. Or, add to it why the Anglicans reject the primacy of the pope. It's very interesting I find.....
 
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Avila, et.al.,

You bring up very interesting questions :)

First, a few corrections.

1. Peter was the Bishop of Antioch, not Jerusalem.
2. James the Just was the bishop of Jerusalem.

As Avila has said, no-one has been able to witness with certainty that Peter actually took the reigns of the Roman See while alive. Paul had just as much (if not more) influence on Rome. That both Peter and Paul died at Rome is not questioned. .. but which one was the Bishop at Rome? Some say neither.

Second, the EO's, as my jurisdiction (The Primitive Episcopal Church), teach that Matthew 16:16 refers to Peter's *confession* and not him personally. In fact, the scriptures teach that all the apostles are a part of the foundation of the Church, Jesus Christ himself being the chief-cornerstone.

The power of binding and loosing was given to each of the Apostles in equal measure when Christ breathed upon them in the upper room.

The Orthodox and Anglican Churches did accept the Roman Bishop as a "first among equals" but not as the "episcopus episcoporum" (Bishop of the Bishops). In Orthodox and Anglicanisim, certain bishops (patriarchs, metropolitans, archbishops) enjoy special status amongst their brother bishops, but not above them. They have no extra powers, and they may not override another bishop and impose their will upon another diocese.

In the ancient Church, the Patriarchates of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antoch and Jerusalem were formed. . . and indeed Rome was given primacy of honor and influence, mainly because Rome was the capital of the Empire. When you look beyond that to the second most powerful patriarchate, it was Constantinople. . . the "new Rome".

Even today, the Orthodox and Anglican Churches would accept the primacy of honor and influence due to Rome, if Rome would admit that it had taught flawed doctrine and dogmas, and recognise the need allow all bishops to function as a body, together, and not with a bishop over them all.

Hope this is helpful.

Father Rob
Primitive Episcopalian

FOR FURTHER READING: Orthodoxy and Catholicisim: What Are the Differences (by Fr. Theodore Pulcini, published by Conciliar Press)
 
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jukesk9

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Fr. Rob,

Very informative and very helpful. But, did you not, along with EO's, accept Rome's authority for several, several centuries? Is there more to England's break from Rome other than Henry's divorce? Where there theologians that thought about the rejection of the Papacy before Henry?

I want to make sure I word this right as to avoid confusion to what I'm asking. It is my understanding that the Anglican Church and the EO, as you stated, view Peter's confession as the rock. Fair enough. But where is the theological backing of this PRIOR to the break? Was there a movement?

Even today, the Orthodox and Anglican Churches would accept the primacy of honor and influence due to Rome, if Rome would admit that it had taught flawed doctrine and dogmas, and recognise the need allow all bishops to function as a body, together, and not with a bishop over them all.

With Catholics believing in papal infallibility, this seems impossible. Yet the Orthodox accept the Assumption of the Theotokus and they celebrate the feast on the same day we do--Aug 15. This was declared ex-cathedra by the Catholic Church in 1950. This just shows this belief has been around since the beginning. I've read that the Orthodox would accept the filoque if it were worded, "the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son." As for Purgatory, the EO's reject it yet pray for the dead and teach that the soul undergoes some sort of purification after death. So, with very similar beliefs, it's hard for me to see which doctrines, other than the primacy of the pope, that the EO's would want Rome to admit She erred in.
 
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Wolseley

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It has less to do with theology than it does with politics. This is about to get lengthy, but remember: you asked for it!

The Catholic view is that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), has jurisdiction over the entire Church. The Orthodox view is that there was more or less an equality between the Bishops of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem. This dichotomy had been developing for centuries. Early Patristic literature will reveal that the earliest Church viewed Rome as the headquarters of the Church, and that this view goes back to as early as 96 AD.

However, the Roman Empire was in fact two distinct spheres---East and West. As Christianity gradually became legalized and more a part of the cultural structure, it, too, reflected this difference. In the West, people spoke Latin; in the East, they spoke Greek. You had two sets of Canon laws, two sets of dates for the celebrations of Christmas and Easter, two different versions of the Nicene Creed. After about the 11th century, when the Pope tried to exert authority over Eastern bishops, they resisted him on the grounds that he was exerting authority that did not belong to him. The West saw the East as not adhering to the ancient patterns of authority that Jesus established with Peter and the Roman See.

Again, this was a long, gradual separation; it took about a thousand years for the real friction to begin, and that had a lot to do with culture, once again. In the East, you had "Byzantine" Christianity, what we now call Orthodox; it was based on the Greek liturgy and was heavily influenced by the Eastern Emperors. In the West, you had "Latin" Christianity, which, after 476, wasn't influenced too much by the Roman Emperor since there wasn't any Roman Emperor. There had been cooperation between the Bishop of Rome and the Emperors in the calling of the first eight ecumenical councils; but now, there wasn't any Emperor, and when the 1st Lateran Council was called by Pope Callistus, only Western Bishops attended.

(It is worth noting that between the years 314 and 655, out of the Sees of Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople, only Rome never had a heretical bishop. [In fact, no Bishop of Rome has ever taught heresy.] In the years 512 and 639, all three of the Sees other than Rome had Patriarchs which were Monophysites and Monothelites; at other times, they were Arians or Nestorians.)

The whole thing came to a head when the phrase "from the Son" was inserted into the Nicene Creed at the Council of Toledo in 589. The Eastern Bishops preferred the wording "through the Son", and they did not understand that the wording at Toledo was chosen to combat a heresy in the West at the time; to them, it simply seemed as if the bishops of the West were ignoring the East's concerns. In reality, it was probably a case of both sides totally misunderstanding the other.

Did anybody doubt that the Holy Spirit came from both the Father and the Son? Probably not, but that wasn't the point. The Eastern Church viewed the West as meddling with the Creed, while the West viewed the East as refusing to acknowledge the supremacy of the Roman See. The divergence developed further from this point onward.

The final split probably would have come about anyway, but the two principal actors in the drama certainly didn't help things any. An ailing Pope Leo IX had ordered all Greek-rite churches in Italy to adapt Latin-rite liturgies. The Patriarch of Constantinople, whom I'll discuss in a minute, retaliated by ordering all Latin-rite churches in Constantinople to adopt Greek liturgies. The Latin-rite churches refused, and the Patriarch promptly shut them all down, and wrote a letter to the Bishop of Trani in which he castigated all Latin-rite practices on no uncertain terms. This letter, or a copy of it, was passed on to Rome; the Pope was outraged.

At this point, a couple of provincial couriers from Constantinople showed up in Rome, bearing letters from the Patriarch to the Pope. In them, the Patriach had addressed the Pope as "Brother" instead of the customary "Father", and he had signed it "Ecumenical Patriarch", which the Pope and his cardinals construed as meaning Patriarch of the whole Church, East and West. Actually, use of the Greek term Oikoumene, at least insofar as the Patriarch of Constantinople was concerned, meant only the Byzantine Empire, but the Pope's legates didn't realize this.

The Pope sent his secretary legate, a guy named Cardinal Humbert of Moyen-Moutier, to Constantinople with a letter condemning the Partiarch for his upstart usage of the term "Ecumenical Patriarch", and criticizing his closure of the Latin-rite churches within his jurisdiction. The Pope couldn't have made a poorer choice of whom to send; Humbert didn't speak Greek, had no use for the Byzantines, was hot-tempered, and was a career ladder-climber in the Roman Curia. On the other hand, the Patriarch, a guy named Michael Cerularius, was no pearl either; he had spent most of his career as a civil servant, had no training in diplomacy of any kind, had no use for Latin liturgy or the Papacy, and was ambitious, unsubtle, and more than a tad arrogant.

The irritated Humbert was not received with open arms in Constantinople, and this annoyed him further. Deprived of the customary diplomatic niceties, he in turn shoved the letter from the Pope into the Patriarch's hands without so much as a hello. For his part, the Patriarch couldn't believe that the Bishop of Rome would dare to address him in such a manner, and decided that Humbert and his legates were therefore phonies; he refused to accept them as legitimate representatives from Rome, curtly dismissed them, and refused to have anything more to do with them.

This sent the Romans into transports of rage. They stayed in Constantinople for a while and were received by the Byzantine Emperor, who treated them kindly and urged them to try to work things out with the Patriarch. The Patriarch continued to ignore them, however, and finally, on Saturday, July 16, 1054, Cardinal Humbert barged into the Church of Holy Wisdom right in the middle of Holy Mass, and slammed a letter down on the main altar excommunicating the Byzantine Emperor, the Patriarch of Constantinople, and all their followers, and departed, actually wiping the dust from his feet as he did so. Whether or not Humbert actually had the authority to make this move is questionable, but he made it anyway, and the Patriarch replied in kind by excommunicating the Pope and all Latin Christians, and the break was complete.

The whole thing can be attributed in large part to egotistic personalities and the regional politics of the period; there were underlying religious differences, of course, but it really shouldn't have come to the break that it did. Both sides made mistakes, and both sides totally misunderstood the other. The mutual excommunications were lifted on December 7, 1965, by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athanagoras I.

I realize this is a long post, but I have only barely touched the surface of the Eastern Schism; is you ever decide to examine the depths of the politics behind the whole thing, you will find them fascinating; we don't have the term "Byzantine" (meaning labarinthine complexity and devious intrigue) for nothing. :D

Hope this helps.
---Wols.
 
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jukesk9

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Wow. I am in awe. My cyber-jaw just dropped. What a post. This is something I didn't know:

After about the 11th century, when the Pope tried to exert authority over Eastern bishops, they resisted him on the grounds that he was exerting authority that did not belong to him.

I figured all along that what the Pope said, the East went along with. Who headed the councils that the East today still recognizes? Except for Nicea, which I think there is evidence to support the Pope being recongized as Primate even though he was absent, didn't the rest of the councils have the Pope as head?

This is awesome:

In fact, no Bishop of Rome has ever taught heresy.

Anyway, studying the Eastern Schism is something I'm taking on. I've been on several Orthodox pages lately. The differences are so minor. Anyway, In the immortal words of my generation, Wols, YOU ROCK!
 
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Originally posted by jukesk9
Fr. Rob,
Very informative and very helpful. But, did you not, along with EO's, accept Rome's authority for several, several centuries? Is there more to England's break from Rome other than Henry's divorce? Where there theologians that thought about the rejection of the Papacy before Henry?


Oh, there is much more! The Anglican Church from the sixth century was forced into a Romanesque unity (Synod of Whitby as I recall) which imposed the rule of the Roman Bishop upon the native Church. The Magna Carta, as I recall, does not accept the supremecy of the Roman Pontiff. The invasions of William the Conqueror was blessed by the Pope because England had stopped paying "Peter's Pence". There is far, far more to the rejection of Papal Authority.

Insofar as the East, they never accepted the Bishop of Rome as anything other than the First among Equals.

I want to make sure I word this right as to avoid confusion to what I'm asking. It is my understanding that the Anglican Church and the EO, as you stated, view Peter's confession as the rock. Fair enough. But where is the theological backing of this PRIOR to the break? Was there a movement?

If I had my dictionary of early Christian beliefs handy, I could answer this. Alas, I am at the hospital for another 20 hours, so I cannot answer this substantially now.

With Catholics believing in papal infallibility, this seems impossible. Yet the Orthodox accept the Assumption of the Theotokus and they celebrate the feast on the same day we do--Aug 15. This was declared ex-cathedra by the Catholic Church in 1950. This just shows this belief has been around since the beginning. I've read that the Orthodox would accept the filoque if it were worded, "the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son." As for Purgatory, the EO's reject it yet pray for the dead and teach that the soul undergoes some sort of purification after death. So, with very similar beliefs, it's hard for me to see which doctrines, other than the primacy of the pope, that the EO's would want Rome to admit She erred in.

The EO's do not accept as dogma or doctrine the belief in the Assumption (they celebrate her death on the 15th of October, not her Assumption and allow a belief in the Assumption as a holy-thought). The EO's do not hold to the western doctrine of Orignial Sin. They do not believe in the Immcaulate Conception. The EO's pray for the dead just like Anglicans, but not that they would be saved or delivered from their sins. The Ancient Fathers taught that our prayers are beneficial in some mysterious way. The EO's believe in a lifetime process of "theosis" or becoming more "god-like" in the sheding of sin and putting on of Christ.

Gotta take a break for a while. More later if my caseload permits.

Blessings,
Fr. Rob
Primitive Episcopalian
 
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isshinwhat

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I've read that the Orthodox would accept the filoque if it were worded,

Unless I am mistaken, this issue has been ironed out. The Orthodox believed that Rome had slipped into heresy by denying that although all three persons were co-eternal, the Father alone was the source of the entire Trinity. The two sides finally got together to work this out and both were found to belive the same thing. The normative form of the Creed in the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome still does not have filioque clause, nor did JPII say it when when celebrating with the Easterns.

As for the debate over the primacy of Rome, all sides usually agree that the Bishop of Rome holds primacy over the other Bishops, but only as a primacy of Honor, not Jurisdiction, so while they will respect what he says because of his position, no bishop outside of his episcopate is under his authority.

Iranaeus wrote the following around 180 A.D.

. . . Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church . . . the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition.
The blessed Apostles, having founded and built up the Church, they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy [2 Timothy 4:21]. To him succeeded Anencletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate . . .

In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith.

St. Cyprian, writing in the middle of the third century, strongly affirms the papacy and Roman primacy:


It is on one man that He builds the Church . . . In order that unity might be clearly shown, He established by His own authority a source for that unity, which takes its beginning from one man alone. Indeed, the other Apostles were that also which Peter was, being endowed with an equal portion of dignity and power; but the origin is grounded in unity, so that it may be made clear that there is but one Church of Christ. (262)

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal Church, in which sacerdotal unity has its source; nor did they take thought that these are Romans, whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for perfidy [that is, faithlessness] to have entrance. (263)

Thanks to Dave Armstrong for above info.

It seems to me that the Bishop of Rome had more than just a primacy of honor. Here are a few more quotes I read on Mr. Armstrong's site, or on links therein.

ORIGEN:

"Peter, upon whom is built the Church of Christ, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, left only one epistle of acknowledged genuinity. Let us concede also a second, which however is doubtful." (Commentaries on John 5,3)

"Look upon the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church! And what does the Lord say to him? 'O you of little faith,' He says, 'why did you doubt!'" (Homilies on Exodus 5,4)

AMBROSE:

"We recognize in the letter of your holiness the vigilance of the good shepherd. You faithfully watch over the gate entrusted to you, and you with pious solicitude you guard Christ's sheepfold (Jn 10:7ff.), you are wirthy to have the Lord's sheep hear follow you. Since you know the sheep of Christ you will easily catch the wolves and confront them like a wary shepherd, lest they disperse the Lord's flock by their constant lack of faith and their bestial howling." (Synodal Letter of Ambrose, Sabinus, Bassian, and Others to Pope Siricius 42,1).

Ambrose equates the bishop of Rome with the shepherd of the universal flock of God.

"It is Peter himself that He says, "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church, no death is there, but life eternal." (Commentaries on Twelve of David's Psalms 40,30)

"Christ is the Rock, 'For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ,' and He did not refuse to bestow the favour of this title even upon His disciple, so that he, too, might be Peter [or, Rock], in that he has from the Rock a solid constancy, a firm faith." (Expos. in Luc.)

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM

"For what purpose did He shed His blood? It was that He might win these sheep which he entrusted to Peter and his successors." (De Sacerdotio, 53)

"Peter himself the chief of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received a revelation not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed are thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and bone hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven'; this very Peter, - and when I name Peter, the great Apostles, I name that unbroken rock, that firm foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called and the first who obeyed." (Homily 3 de Poenit. 4)

And there are many more who write in the same vein. I have yet to find and Early Father who does not equate the Rock with Peter. I seem to remember reading that one claimed the Rock was Peter and his confession, but even he did not separate the two. I really don't know how the change came about. It seems to me that there was always a Primacy of Jurisdiction. Even the Synods that defined the Canon had the list sent to Rome to be ratified and become binding on the Church as a whole. This subject has always made me sad.

Neal
 
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jukesk9

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Fr. Rob,

The EO's do not accept as dogma or doctrine the belief in the Assumption (they celebrate her death on the 15th of October, not her Assumption and allow a belief in the Assumption as a holy-thought).

I have yet to find where the EO's show the Assumption as dogma, but I found the following to show they do believe that Mary was assumed into Heaven. Is this what you mean as a holy thought rather than their faithful being required to believe?

In the Orthodox church, Mary, being the Mother of God, is very important. Mary was the first Christian, as she whole-heartedly accepted God's mission for her. The name of our church, the Assumption, or Dormition (falling asleep in the Lord), of Mary, is significant because the Assumption of Mary into Heaven shows us that she was sinless. While not free from immaculate conception as she was of the lineage of David, Mary had no sin her whole life. Really, how could God be born of a woman with sin? Mary's pure body was the vessel through which Christ our Lord entered the world through the power of the Holy Spirit.
http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch03196?frame=N

And again this:

The Dormition ("Falling-Asleep") of our Most-Holy Lady the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary
August 15
http://www.oca.org/pages/dwp/dwp.asp?dayid=815

Pretty close to what Catholics believe. Again, I can't find on their pages if this is an Article of Faith to be fully recieved by the faithful or not.
 
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jukesk9

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Neal,

I agree with you that this is a sad issue. I would love to see the Catholic Church and the EO's become one in my lifetime. What is very interesting is while the EO's reject the papacy, they hold the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom so dear and is their primary liturgical worship. From your post, it seems he was a supporter of the papacy.
 
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isshinwhat

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Jukes, EWTN has a gentleman on their Q&A board named....Anthony....something, I cannot recall, but it is an Eastern Catholic Q&A board at any rate. He can answer just about any question you might have concerning the EO or EC Churches, although it may take him a bit to get back to you. Let's all pray for reunion!

Neal
 
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Wolseley

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Thanks Wols, that was great. Can you reccomend a few good books on the subject. Maybe Dr. Carroll's?
Warren Carroll's history of Christendom is excellent, but I don't remember how deep he goes into the Eastern Schism. (It's been many moons since I read his books, and alas, they are one set I don't have. :cry: )

One source that goes a bit deeper than I have is Chapter 13 of Thomas Bokenkotter's A Concise History of the Catholic Church (ISBN 0-385-41147-2). His book isn't perfect, but he does cover this topic in some detail.
It seems to me that the Bishop of Rome had more than just a primacy of honor.
From my readings into Patristic literature, I would tend to agree, isshinwhat. The "collegial equality of the bishops" argument just doesn't hold a lot of water, IMHO. :)
 
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Wolseley

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This thread has been split, and the debate portion of it has been moved to the Protestant/Catholic/Jewish Meeting forum, where it belongs.  This thread is now returned to its original topic.

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