Lack of Transitional Forms

Godfixated

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I was asked a couple days ago to post a topic about evidence against evolution; so, I'll start with most glaring and obvious of this evidence: The Lack of Transitional forms. I had a couple big tests in the last couple of days; so, I wasn't able to post anything. I will first come out and say that we have not found any transitional forms proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Even the often touted Australipithescene australis or Homo erectus is not an exactly bonafide precursor to Homo sapiens, even though scientists will say they are, there is no proof that they actually were mankind's ancestors. They could have been a different species all entirely. Plus, there is a lack of transitional forms from those hominids to the humans of today. Also, there are many examples of often touted "transitional forms" being proven that they weren't the missing links that scientists were looking. Let's not forget the infamous horse series where scientists believed that the hyrax evolved into the modern day horse. Not only was this theory proven wrong by the eventual discovery of the hyrax in modern day, but also many of the fossilized animals in the series had conspicuously different amounts of ribs, sich as one species have 10 ribs, while the next species in the series had 12, and then the next had 10 again. Another example of this can be seen with the Ceolocanth, a fossilized fish who was said to be be one of the first to walk on to dry land because appendable fins. This theory was later shattered by fishermen catching Ceolocanths off of Madagascar. Scientists later discovered that Ceolocanths were deep sea fish. Those are just two examples off the top of my head.
 

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mikeynov

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Godfixated said:
I was asked a couple days ago to post a topic about evidence against evolution; so, I'll start with most glaring and obvious of this evidence: The Lack of Transitional forms. I had a couple big tests in the last couple of days; so, I wasn't able to post anything. I will first come out and say that we have not found any transitional forms proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Even the often touted Australipithescene australis or Homo erectus is not an exactly bonafide precursor to Homo sapiens, even though scientists will say they are, there is no proof that they actually were mankind's ancestors. They could have been a different species all entirely. Plus, there is a lack of transitional forms from those hominids to the humans of today. Also, there are many examples of often touted "transitional forms" being proven that they weren't the missing links that scientists were looking. Let's not forget the infamous horse series where scientists believed that the hyrax evolved into the modern day horse. Not only was this theory proven wrong by the eventual discovery of the hyrax in modern day, but also many of the fossilized animals in the series had conspicuously different amounts of ribs, sich as one species have 10 ribs, while the next species in the series had 12, and then the next had 10 again. Another example of this can be seen with the Ceolocanth, a fossilized fish who was said to be be one of the first to walk on to dry land because appendable fins. This theory was later shattered by fishermen catching Ceolocanths off of Madagascar. Scientists later discovered that Ceolocanths were deep sea fish. Those are just two examples off the top of my head.

1) Define "transitional form/fossil" in your own words. I suggest doing so because without understanding what YOU mean by the term, this conversation is going to be entirely useless.

2) Give an example of what sort of fossil find COULD fulfill your criteria for being both transitional and evidence for evolution. Much like #1, this will give us a baseline to establish whether we have common ground at least in our definitions and expectations, something usually absent in these sorts of conversations.
 
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Dal M.

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Godfixated said:
Let's not forget the infamous horse series where scientists believed that the hyrax evolved into the modern day horse. Not only was this theory proven wrong by the eventual discovery of the hyrax in modern day...

I think you've confused the hyrax with the Hyracotherium.

You aren't alone.
 
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Godfixated

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mikeynov said:
1) Define "transitional form/fossil" in your own words. I suggest doing so because without understanding what YOU mean by the term, this conversation is going to be entirely useless.

2) Give an example of what sort of fossil find COULD fulfill your criteria for being both transitional and evidence for evolution. Much like #1, this will give us a baseline to establish whether we have common ground at least in our definitions and expectations, something usually absent in these sorts of conversations.

A transitional form is a fossilized form of a species that shows clear cut transition of one ancestral species to another until modern species. There should be millions of transitional forms for each species because of all the changes needed to occur and we should be able to build a timeline with these fossils and know exactly what changes took place. Yet, not one of these timelines exists or has been close to being put together. There are many fossilized specimens that come close, such as archeopteryx, yet there are no intermittent fossilized to show whatever dinosaur it evolved from, and then transitions from the archeopteryx to modern birds. Unless you guys believe in Punctuated Equilibrium, which I am sorry to say but everything is lost if any of you believe in that.
 
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Loudmouth

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Godfixated said:
I was asked a couple days ago to post a topic about evidence against evolution; so, I'll start with most glaring and obvious of this evidence: The Lack of Transitional forms.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If a criminal leaves their blood and hair at a crime scene but fails to leave their fingerprints are they let go? There is also DNA evidence and the nested hierarchies that demonstrate common ancestory between species. Fossils are but one line of evidence.

Even the often touted Australipithescene australis or Homo erectus is not an exactly bonafide precursor to Homo sapiens, even though scientists will say they are, there is no proof that they actually were mankind's ancestors. They could have been a different species all entirely.

Firstly, you are right. Only DNA can be used to determine direct ancestory. However, these fossil species are still intermediate because the have a mix of ape-like and human-like features, exactly what the theory of evolution predicts.

Secondly, the formation of new species has been observed numerous times. Saying that they were "separate species" actually supports the theory of evolution, since that is what it predicts to begin with.

Plus, there is a lack of transitional forms from those hominids to the humans of today.

You are playing Zeno's Paradox. For every new transitional fossil found you can claim that there are now two new gaps. A single transitional disproves your claims and there are several known transitional fossils in the human lineage.

Also, there are many examples of often touted "transitional forms" being proven that they weren't the missing links that scientists were looking. Let's not forget the infamous horse series where scientists believed that the hyrax evolved into the modern day horse.

I wouldn't listen to Hovind if I were you. Even Answers in Genesis warns creationists not to repeat his dishonest claims.

Not only was this theory proven wrong by the eventual discovery of the hyrax in modern day, but also many of the fossilized animals in the series had conspicuously different amounts of ribs, sich as one species have 10 ribs, while the next species in the series had 12, and then the next had 10 again.

Let me get this straight. The fossils changed over time which makes evolution false? Species changing over time is exactly what evolution predicts.

Another example of this can be seen with the Ceolocanth, a fossilized fish who was said to be be one of the first to walk on to dry land because appendable fins. This theory was later shattered by fishermen catching Ceolocanths off of Madagascar. Scientists later discovered that Ceolocanths were deep sea fish. Those are just two examples off the top of my head.

This is the poorest example of all. Coelocanths are a group of fish comprising 80 known species, both living and extinct. The living species of coelocanth (I believe there are two now) are found nowhere in the fossil record. Also, the living species are larger than any fossil species and they also differ anatomically from the fossil species.

Secondly, coelocanths belong to a larger group called the lobe-finned fish. Within this larger group are transitionals that are intermediate between fish and amphibians. However, no scientist has ever claimed that a species of coelocanth is our direct ancestor. The closest living fish relative of terrestrial vertebrates is the lobe finned lungfish, which is clearly not a coelocanth.

You will not impress anyone by repeating dishonest trash from creationist sites. I would brush up on your biology before making more bold claims such as that found in the opening post.
 
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Godfixated

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Dal M. said:
I think you've confused the hyrax with the Hyracotherium.

You aren't alone.
That is a new rationalization for evolutionists' inadequacies due to the horse series because when I first started studying the argument of evolution versus creation in freshmen year of high school this was never a argument that evolutionists every used when I brought it up to them because when the horse series came out, they really did believe that the hyrax evolved into the horse.
 
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Godfixated said:
Another example of this can be seen with the Ceolocanth, a fossilized fish who was said to be be one of the first to walk on to dry land because appendable fins. This theory was later shattered by fishermen catching Ceolocanths off of Madagascar. Scientists later discovered that Ceolocanths were deep sea fish. Those are just two examples off the top of my head.

Isn't it better to keep quiet than show ones ignorance?
 
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Nooj

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Godfixated said:
That is a new rationalization for evolutionists' inadequacies due to the horse series because when I first started studying the argument of evolution versus creation in freshmen year of high school this was never a argument that evolutionists every used when I brought it up to them because when the horse series came out, they really did believe that the hyrax evolved into the horse.

Gimme a direct quote from an evolutionist saying that horses evolved from hyraxes. Then I'll believe you.
 
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Loudmouth

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Godfixated said:
A transitional form is a fossilized form of a species that shows clear cut transition of one ancestral species to another until modern species.

So what features should a transitional fossil have between us and our common ancestor with chimps? Please be specific.

There should be millions of transitional forms for each species because of all the changes needed to occur and we should be able to build a timeline with these fossils and know exactly what changes took place.

How many of them fossilized? How many of those fossils survive until this day? How many of those fossils exist in the scattered dig sites? Existence and fossilization are not the same thing.

Yet, not one of these timelines exists or has been close to being put together.

Acutally, they have. Check out the timeline for human evolution:

evol.gif


There are many fossilized specimens that come close, such as archeopteryx, yet there are no intermittent fossilized to show whatever dinosaur it evolved from, and then transitions from the archeopteryx to modern birds.

Archie was most likely a sidebranch, but it is still transitional because it has both bird and reptillian features. There are also many other bird/dino transitional fossils, described here.

Unless you guys believe in Punctuated Equilibrium, which I am sorry to say but everything is lost if any of you believe in that.

Why? PE is evolution.
 
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Godfixated

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Loudmouth said:
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If a criminal leaves their blood and hair at a crime scene but fails to leave their fingerprints are they let go? There is also DNA evidence and the nested hierarchies that demonstrate common ancestory between species. Fossils are but one line of evidence.



Firstly, you are right. Only DNA can be used to determine direct ancestory. However, these fossil species are still intermediate because the have a mix of ape-like and human-like features, exactly what the theory of evolution predicts.

Secondly, the formation of new species has been observed numerous times. Saying that they were "separate species" actually supports the theory of evolution, since that is what it predicts to begin with.



You are playing Zeno's Paradox. For every new transitional fossil found you can claim that there are now two new gaps. A single transitional disproves your claims and there are several known transitional fossils in the human lineage.



I wouldn't listen to Hovind if I were you. Even Answers in Genesis warns creationists not to repeat his dishonest claims.



Let me get this straight. The fossils changed over time which makes evolution false? Species changing over time is exactly what evolution predicts.



This is the poorest example of all. Coelocanths are a group of fish comprising 80 known species, both living and extinct. The living species of coelocanth (I believe there are two now) are found nowhere in the fossil record. Also, the living species are larger than any fossil species and they also differ anatomically from the fossil species.

Secondly, coelocanths belong to a larger group called the lobe-finned fish. Within this larger group are transitionals that are intermediate between fish and amphibians. However, no scientist has ever claimed that a species of coelocanth is our direct ancestor. The closest living fish relative of terrestrial vertebrates is the lobe finned lungfish, which is clearly not a coelocanth.

You will not impress anyone by repeating dishonest trash from creationist sites. I would brush up on your biology before making more bold claims such as that found in the opening post.
I'm sorry but digging for over 150 years for something all over the world and coming up with nothing is a little more than the absence of evidence. Okay, now where have new species sprung up? No where in macroevolution. This only happens in what people call "microevolution" which is nothing more than adaptation and even those adaptations don't create new species. I'm sorry to disappoint, but I didn't look at any Creationist websites before I posted this or anything like that, I have just been studying this for a long time and you present to me the same thing that everyone else does, which, essentially isn't an argument.
 
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Loudmouth

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Godfixated said:
That is a new rationalization for evolutionists' inadequacies due to the horse series because when I first started studying the argument of evolution versus creation in freshmen year of high school this was never a argument that evolutionists every used when I brought it up to them because when the horse series came out, they really did believe that the hyrax evolved into the horse.

Could you give us a reference that states the hyrax is part of the horse lineage?
 
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mikeynov

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Godfixated said:
A transitional form is a fossilized form of a species that shows clear cut transition of one ancestral species to another until modern species. There should be millions of transitional forms for each species because of all the changes needed to occur and we should be able to build a timeline with these fossils and know exactly what changes took place. Yet, not one of these timelines exists or has been close to being put together. There are many fossilized specimens that come close, such as archeopteryx, yet there are no intermittent fossilized to show whatever dinosaur it evolved from, and then transitions from the archeopteryx to modern birds. Unless you guys believe in Punctuated Equilibrium, which I am sorry to say but everything is lost if any of you believe in that.

Next question - on what basis do you expect this many transitional fossils based on what's known about the actual process of fossilization?

For example - when's the last time you stumbled upon a passenger pigeon fossil? There were many many millions in this country all of a couple hundred years ago. Where did they go? Are you bumping into passenger pigeon fossils all the time?
 
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Loudmouth

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Godfixated said:
I'm sorry but digging for over 150 years for something all over the world and coming up with nothing is a little more than the absence of evidence.

I'm sorry, but digging for over 150 years has uncovered a boatload of transitional fossils, and there is no reason why this trend should not continue. Most of the hominid fossils have been uncovered since the 1970's. You can cover your eyes and plug your ears all you want, but science will continue to unearth more transitional fossils without you.

Okay, now where have new species sprung up? No where in macroevolution.

Speciation is macroevolution. And it has been observed.

Observed instances of speciation

Some more observed instances of speciation

I'm sorry to disappoint, but I didn't look at any Creationist websites before I posted this or anything like that, I have just been studying this for a long time and you present to me the same thing that everyone else does, which, essentially isn't an argument.

You claim that the living species of coelocanth is the same one found in the fossil record. That is false. Spreading falsehoods is not an argument either, it is lying. You also claim that scientists put the hyrax in the horse lineage, another lie. You also fail to define the term "transitional fossil" in a way that is applicable to the fossil record, which gives you all the goalpost shifting room you require. Your posts are just evidence of creationist dishonesty.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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it's page 2,
can i post it?
can i, can i this time?
i know the answer to this one, let me.
*hand waves madly in space*


zeno's paradox.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/zeno.htm
Zeno's Paradox and the Creationist Demand for Transitional Forms
By Glenn R. Morton


AKA moving the goalposts.
 
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