What does everyone thing about legalizing marijuana? I personally think that it should be controlled legal substance for various reasons. What do you all think and why?
-jon
-jon
the legalization of marijuana
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Do you think that legalizing marijuana would increase availability? Do you think that it would increase usage? Do you think that all of these marijuana laws drive drug crime up or down?
I am not pro marijuana, but rather pro marijuana legalization. There's a difference.
-jon
I am not pro marijuana, but rather pro marijuana legalization. There's a difference.
-jon
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aggie03
Veritas Vos Liberabit
I still pose my earlier questions - and as a Christian, wouldn't you only want to propogate things that glorify God? This is a verse that I like:
"Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ"
Philippians 3:19,20
I know that I haven't really answered your questions yet, and I will, but I was just wondering what you thought about that.
"Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ"
Philippians 3:19,20
I know that I haven't really answered your questions yet, and I will, but I was just wondering what you thought about that.
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coastie
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If marijuana weree legalized, there would definately be more people using it. It woudl be easier to get and wouldn't carry the penalties with it. Do we really want our kids legally smoking that crud?
However, part of my anti-drug brief that I give to school groups on occassion starts out with asking how many kids smoke ciggs, then how many smoke Marijuana, then how many drink.
From my encounters with high school kids, it starts out with ciggarettes, then marijuana, then worse drugs. Matijuana is a step in the wrong direction for kids.
My hypothesis is that if Marijuana could be eliminated, then the transition to mroe severe drugs would be that much more of a step, and one that many wouldn't have the courage to take.
Zach
However, part of my anti-drug brief that I give to school groups on occassion starts out with asking how many kids smoke ciggs, then how many smoke Marijuana, then how many drink.
From my encounters with high school kids, it starts out with ciggarettes, then marijuana, then worse drugs. Matijuana is a step in the wrong direction for kids.
My hypothesis is that if Marijuana could be eliminated, then the transition to mroe severe drugs would be that much more of a step, and one that many wouldn't have the courage to take.
Zach
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First of all, marijunana is easier to buy than beer for anyone under the drinking age and I have statistics to prove that if you like. Indeed, the regulations placed on marijuana usage have not impacted availability whatsoever in the united states. Finally, there's no reason to believe that legalization would increase usage of the drug. In the netherlands marijuana is legal and yet usage based on percent (so it isn't just that they have less people) is lower accross the board, in every age group.
No, it would not be legal for children. Hence what I said ealier about a 'controlled legal substance.' Considering that beer's harder to get than marijuana, the availability of marijuana to kids to most likely lower if it were a controlled legal substance.
The trouble is that the 'war on drugs' has been a compelte failure and marijuana is easier to get than controlled legal substances.
I'm sorry, I never did answer those questions did I. Well the answers would be no (and I've never smoked marijuana myself so he wouldn't get much of a chance to), no, and no to the question in the second post. I do NOT want to propagate marijuana but neither do I want the government to censor it. It is not the proper role of the government to tell adults what to eat, or smoke, or drink so long as they do so without infringing on the equal rights of other individuals.
Additionaly, legalization would not increase availability of the drug, and we've seen that strengthening laws has never alterred the usage.
__
So, to sum it all up I would contend that:
1. Legalization would not affect availability save a slight decrease to children.
2. Legalization would, by every statsistic available, most likely not increase usage. Usage was not higher in the US before the drug became legal, it has not alterred with the strengthening of drug laws, and it is actually LOWER in the netherlands where it has been made legal.
3. Legalization would drive down drug crime. This is a well documented assertion for which I can provide evidence if necessary.
4. The most effective means to prevent marijuana is NOT government regualtions but rather parenting. The evidence shows this to be true.
5. It is not the proper role of government to watch what we eat, drink, or smoke provided it does not hurt others. It may be WRONG to smoke or drink excessivly, but it isn't the government's place to make those desicions for adults.
-jon
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I'm all for the legalization of marijuana for adults for the following reasons:
1. It has a clearly established medicinal value
2. It is less addictive than alcohol or nicotine, which ARE legal
3. It would fall under the existing laws for cigarette smoking, giving private businesses the right to restrict it
4. The government has no business restricting the behavior of consenting adults
I don't smoke marijuana, and I would not smoke it if it were legal. However, I would not presume to impose my personal ethics on other adults.
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coastie
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I don't need your statistics. My point was: Why make it even easier?
Except for the fact that people who didn't use it before will not be so afraid to use it because of lack of restrictions and it's legalization.
Oh yeah, and in Eastern Canada you can drink at 18 but if it were legal here to drink at 18 you'd have a bunch of drunk teenagers walking around simply because it's been illegal to them and now it's not.
You can't argue that, I was a tennager once, and I know that's what I probably would have done.
So let's throw in the rag and make it ok for druggies... um sure buddy.
I wasn't refering to children, our kids will grow up someday. I don't want them ever thinking that it's alright. If we say, "Hey it's legal, go get stoned on your 18 birthday!" Would that be any better than saying "Hey you're twenty-one, go get PLASTERED" or "Hey you're eighteen, go suck on some cancer sticks."
I say keep it illegal, what could we possibly have to gain from allowing the general public to get stoned.
Your logic here completely baffles me.
Uh huh... when was that theory tested?
I don't live in the Netherlands. Different culture, different rules.
Please do, I'd like to know what source you get your info from.
I agree, but what about the one's who's parents aren't as good at it as you and who's kids would see this as an open door invitation to dabble in the fine respectable art of getting high.
And Marijuana's good for you? Yeah yeah, I've heard of all of the great medicinal uses of the drug. So beer should be legalized for everyone and so should cigarettes?
Sorry, but you aren't hurting anyone by keeping it illegal and the potential for hurting someone by legalizing it is real, no matter what you say.
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You are speaking of mind alering drugs! No they should never be legalized. Yes cigarettes should be banned. They are a curse on the human body. Would you offer one to Jesus sitting in your living room? If not they have no place in your life. If you would, read more about Jesus!
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Wouldnt be easier.
But the evidence shows that the toughening of the US's drug laws has had no effect on usage whatsoever. The people who want to use it use it; the people who are smart enough not to don't.
Okay, so Ive shown that restrictions have had no effect in the US, that they have no effect in Netherlands. You COULD say that its because of a different cultures both between the Netherlands and the US and the US of old and the modern US, but whats the point? Youre assigning a cause that you have no evidence for.
Yeah, or we could waste billions on an ineffective drug war when curtailing the supply has proven an ineffective method of lowering drug use.
You know your arguments would really be a lot stronger if you could show that restrictions hindered availability. I am simply, once again, going to say that its no better under the status quo except for some higher drug crime rates.
What could we possibly gain from letting the public overeat, or letting the public not exercise, or letting the public eat fatty foods? The answer: a bit of liberty and a bit less government.
Fine, Ill give you a quote.
The only evidence we have to go on suggests this.
Tell me, what kind of evidence would you accept to show that legalization doesnt effect usage if I could provide it?
Then theyre getting it anyway, although if it were a controlled legal substance the availability would hopefully and most likely lessen to that of beer.
"If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." ~ Thomas Jefferson
The united states was founded on the idea of liberty the idea that adults should be free to do as they please provided that they do not infringe on the equal rights of others. Until they injure another individual or deprive them of their rights in any way, they are free to do as they like.
-jon
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Your position is 'drugs are bad;' my position is 'drugs are bad.' The trouble with using this as evidence for how good prohibition is, is that drug prohibition does not effect availability.
-jon
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coastie
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Making it so that you can buy the crud over the counter at the gas station rather than having to find a dealer isn't making it easier, show me your logic. There is so much marijuana coming in over seas that the black market marijuana sales wouldn't stop because they would always be able to sell it for cheaper.
The only way to curtail the use is to clip the drug where it's manufactured.
You aren't?
Ineffective? Holy cow! Do you have any idea how many tons of marijuana are seized by the Coast Guard alone in a year?
How do they have no effect on drug usage? That's Balonga! You will never find a cop or Coastie or Customs officer or DEA agent who will agree with that. High Times isn't a reputable source.
If the people who are smart won't use it anyway, you want to legalize it for the stuid people. Hmmm... legalizing a mind altering drug for stupid people... YEAH SOUNDS LIKE A TERRIFIC IDEA!!!
Hmm... I have no idea where I would get some pot because I am not allowed to smoke it, so I don't even try (not that I would anyway, talk about a waste of time). Case in point. HOwever, do you smoke marijuana, if you don't, do you know where to get it? This is of course rhetorical.
I garauntee that there are people who simply do not use it because it's illegal and they'd get fired or put in jail, or kicked out of their house or whatever. Yes restrictions absolutely make it tougher and less desirable to get.
....and a fat, gluttenous, unhealthy, less productive and lazy society.
none... it's an unprovable assertion because it's wrong.
That depends on where you live. Where I grew up, just about every corner store would sell you beer for an extra 5 bucks.
My kids won't 1. because of me and 2. because of the legal penalties. That's a great deterant!
You are looking at this from more the angle of ease of attaining rather than curtailing of use.
So here's a hypothetical situation, you have a hot stove and you tell your toddler sternly, do not touch that or you will go to your room!
Or do you let the toddler touch it and get burned and then the toddler learns the lesson. How about preventative measures. Maybe it doesn't work on everybody, but it'll work on most.
So your idea of liberty is to be able to smoke whatever you want. My idea of liberty is to practice religion freely, and live without fear.
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No, black market goods are not cheaper than over the counter goods. This is why the mob broke down when alcohol prohibition ended.
Nope. I have evidence to support all of my points.
Aye, and this is what drives up the crime rate. AVAILABILITY is unchanged by the seizure of drugs by the coastguard and whatnot; PRICE is changed. If there is a demand there will be a kid on the corner looking to make a buck by selling it.
Okay, so you show me some counter evidence, and I didn't quote 'high times.'
Yeah, if you'd analyize the facts for a moment.
Rhetorical or not I'd still like to answer it. I could get marijuana in two days, easily. Once I got it, I could continue to buy it daily if I wanted too.
With all due respect, your guarentees don't sway my opinion a whole lot. If you're talking of two or three hundred people, then I'd guess that they would be more than compensated for by the people who wouldn't be able to get the substance when legalized. If you gave me some evidence or examples, then this statement would carry more weight.
So the government should tell people that they can't eat Big Macs?
This conversation won't go ANYWHERE until you open your mind a wee bit. All the stats produceable suggest my position, unless you know of some that I don't.
And those places don't distribute as much illegal booze as the dealers deal illegal drugs. There will always be underage smoking, but less if the marijuana prohibition ends.
My idea of liberty is to be able to do as you like provided that you do not hurt other individuals. The politcal theory that this nation is based upon agrees with me.
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others." - Thomas Jefferson
-jon
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coastie
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It would be hard for the US to ever grow as much marijuana as is shipped here illegally.
Nope. You haven't (maybe on one point) but if your opinion is "proof" then I have also shown proof.
Just a quick question... which illegalization conspiracy do you believe in?
So you propose to make it legal rather than working just a little bit harder to eliminate it. Sounds like you think we should give up and let the users win because of their persistence.
I won't do that, marijuana is just a precursor to the use of other more dangerous drugs, I'd much rather eliminate it altogether.
This sure seems like common sense to me. BY illegalizing ferrets, there were no more ferrets in California. When opium was made illegal, the use nearly ceased. Now marijuana may be a different scenario, in which case we need to find a new way to curtail it, other than legalizing it.
And I bet you felt "dirty"
I have no idea where I wold get evidence for this. Seems like common sense to me, but then again, I'm one of the few people in the world that actually follow laws and rules right?
You are right because I can't find a single source about anti-anti-prohibiton.
Go figure, I guess the moral majority feel like they don't need to prove something that has already been proven.hmmm... nope, not my point. My point is, if you saw someone about to climb a fense to jump off a cliff, would you remove the fence so that it would be easier?
Ok, I understand your point but I wouldn't by any means call Marijuana safe to anyone.
And yes, it is addictive.
But if your point of view is that suicide shouldn't be illegal because you aren't hurting anyone else, then I guess there would be no point to this discussion.
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First of all, the United States is the largest agricultural producer in the world. Second, nowhere did I say that we would not legally import marijuana after making it legal. Additionaly, you statements about how much weed is imported corroborate my assertion that the regulations are failing.
I can support every contention I've made, 1-4, with evidence. Ask and you shall receive. Granted, the final point relies on the opinion of the founding fathers and political theorists because it is more philisophical in natre than the other points.
I'm not sure I follow. . .
Appeals to common sense don't get you very far in a debate. What seems like common sense is not always true. I have given evidence showing that prohibition drives up drug crime and does not alter availability.
I've never touched the stuff and never will. I couldn't even tell you what marijuana smells like but I could certainly buy it if I wanted to.
It may seem like common sense, but the opposite is actually true in this case, as I can support.
You're begging the question.
Nope, false analogy. I am not in an authoritative position in that instance and, even more importantly, prohibition does not effect availability.
It's not safe. It's a horrible drug that no one should use but that doesn't mean it's the government's place to make an adult's decision for them. As long as they don't use the drug to hurt people, they have every right to use it.
-jon
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The main thing I think about here is the medical use for it, I think those that might need it for medicinal use should have a legal way to obtain it, If they can get a prescription for it.
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MatthewDiscipleofGod
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I won't even bother reading all the posts but share what I have shared before about this.
Making it legal would make things worse for this country. It's bad enough the way it is and I hope we don't test this out and see what a mistake it ends up being. I know first hand that even small amounts of this drug is unhealthy not only physically but mentally. The tests that show benfits either don't show the whole picture or are out right lies. My brother is addicted, yes addicted to pot and some of these so called studies say it's not addicting. Either that person is a liar, never smoked pot or is to high to know what he's talking about. Yes, I have smoked pot if you are wondering and know many people that have and never did 1 person benifit from it and many people have had or where in the processing of destroying their lives.
Making it legal would make things worse for this country. It's bad enough the way it is and I hope we don't test this out and see what a mistake it ends up being. I know first hand that even small amounts of this drug is unhealthy not only physically but mentally. The tests that show benfits either don't show the whole picture or are out right lies. My brother is addicted, yes addicted to pot and some of these so called studies say it's not addicting. Either that person is a liar, never smoked pot or is to high to know what he's talking about. Yes, I have smoked pot if you are wondering and know many people that have and never did 1 person benifit from it and many people have had or where in the processing of destroying their lives.
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Yes definitely.
I understand you didn't read any/much of our conversation so I'll post a section that partially addresses this point.
"1. Legalization would not affect availability save a slight decrease to children.
2. Legalization would, by every statsistic available, most likely not increase usage. Usage was not higher in the US before the drug became legal, it has not alterred with the strengthening of drug laws, and it is actually LOWER in the netherlands where it has been made legal.
3. Legalization would drive down drug crime. This is a well documented assertion for which I can provide evidence if necessary.
4. The most effective means to prevent marijuana is NOT government regualtions but rather parenting. The evidence shows this to be true.
5. It is not the proper role of government to watch what we eat, drink, or smoke provided it does not hurt others. It may be WRONG to smoke or drink excessivly, but it isn't the government's place to make those desicions for adults."
Thus, despite the horrors of drug addiction, prohibition is not the answer. It does not work, it drives up crime, and it wastes money. It also contradicts the philosophy that this nation was founded upon.
Please understand that I am NOT pro-marijuana. I simply do not think that prohibition solves anything and strongly believe that it makes things worse.
-jon
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I went through a two-month *experimental* phase in college where I smoked pot. I certainly found benefit in it.
It was fun, we had some great get-togethers, and then I moved on. I found it completely non-addictive and had no trouble stopping at all.
The only way to justify marijuana being illegal is if nicotine and alcohol are also illegal. It is generally a HARMLESS drug but, like all things, can cause problems if overused for a long period of time.
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