Does God design certain people to be His punching bags?

Neal said:

Don,

God's knoweldge? Why, surely! Well, in some part, anyway, right? After all, we couldn't say that God's ignorance serves as a basis for this or that, could we? He knows all things, of course. The question needs to be asked, "Is our children learning?" ...wait, wrong question. What I meant to ask was, "If God's knowledge of man's response serves as a basis for His predestination of them, then what is the response that God is looking for?"

Rather, what is our response by nature to the Lord Almighty as outlined in His Word? And how has He chosen to respond to our response?

Click to expand...

Absolutely fantastic clarification Neal. Thank you. Ed, I humbly submit to you Neal's corrected version of my question.

God bless

I'm sorry, Ed, but could you please rephrase this last question of yours in a clearer manner? I'm afraid I don't understand it.

Neal said:

I'm sorry, Ed, but could you please rephrase this last question of yours in a clearer manner? I'm afraid I don't understand it.

Click to expand...

I guess we both don't communicate too clear, do we?
Let's pick it up again from the place concerning your first reponse after I responded to Reformationist's question concerning the pre-destination.

Also, do you plan to append your posts like the Reformationists does? This way it is easier to follow the train of thought.

Ed

Neal said:

...

I'd like to reiterate the question, though,

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Why did God predestine some for Heaven and some for Hell?
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to which you answered,

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Because many will reject the Son.
---------

Now, this is why God predestines some for Hell, yes? You didn't say it explicitly, but I believe you mean also that God predestines some for Heaven, because they will accept the Son--am I correct?

I hope you don't mind this way of discourse...

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Based on this text ...

JN 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

... yes.

Edial said:

Why was it a character assassination?

Ed

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that's how cygnusx1 put it.........just quoting his words.

Don't knock the quoter now!!




Connie

Reformationist said:

I'm confused. He asked, "Why did God predestine some for Heaven and some for Hell?" And your response is, "Because many will reject the Son." Are you contending that God PREdestines someone based on whether or not they will reject the Son?

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Reformation,

God's Word is so ONE.
It's ONE WITH HIS WORD OF PREDESTINATION.
It's ONE WITH HIS WORD OF 'WHOSOEVER WILL.'
God understands HIS WORD so well....when our brains can't.
That's why HE'S GOD!

Whom God will's He hardens! IT BIBLICAL.
Whom will receive the Son God receives as Son! IT'S BIBLICAL.

GOD'S WORD IS ONE. FOR GOD IS ONE-MANNER.
It's just hard at times to see the other side of God's Awesome circle!

Anyway~~
God made Pharaoh to reject Moses,.......He hardened His heart,
but yes Pharaoh hardened it first and then God hardened it as well
for 10 great Miracles to happen for all there to see!!
So that many might escape from Egypt with Great Signs and Wonders!
If this whole topic here, is kept in context we just might see God
pumping His own muscle here for a GREAT DELIVERANCE TO TAKE PLACE.

Those who God knew would reject Him, He didn't chose them.
He chooses for dishonor so that ANOTHER COMPANY (if you will)
might go FREE!!!

God is God and He can do a thing outside of our "human reasonings."

So, since He even fashions some vessels for dishonor who are we
to Judge God? Who are we to say what He can and can not to with
His clay, eh? As I know you know this!

The Bible puts it better:
[bible]Romans 9:17-24[/bible]

I love you and I love that pic with your child!!! (so precious!!!)
Connie

Neal said:

Ed,

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I guess we both don't communicate too clear, do we?
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Alas. [grins] But I try my best. Sometimes, though, I go on flowery language sprints, where I liketh to use fancy words. Not too often, though.

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Let's pick it up again from the place concerning your first reponse after I responded to Reformationist's question concerning the pre-destination.
----------

That looks to be post #278.

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Also, do you plan to append your posts like the Reformationists does? This way it is easier to follow the train of thought.
----------

Actually, I tend not to like doing things that way, if you don't mind. It would make posts like these right now confusing. What I would like to do instead is repost past arguments and statements and comment on them... you know, so we can view this whole thread more linearly.

That is, in this manner:


The following are quotes of mine:

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God's knoweldge? Why, surely! Well, in some part, anyway, right? After all, we couldn't say that God's ignorance serves as a basis for this or that, could we? He knows all things, of course.
----------

I wager there ought to be no confusion here, yes? All I meant was that it makes sense that God does whatever He does in some part on the basis of what He knows. He knows all things presently, wherein confusion for us may enter, since He had to have known that He would flood the Earth on account of man's terrible wickedness at the time He made man. We can be assured that our Lord is indeed an all-knowing God. He knows what will happen.

----------
The question needs to be asked, "Is our children learning?" ...wait, wrong question. What I meant to ask was, "If God's knowledge of man's response serves as a basis for His predestination of them, then what is the response that God is looking for?"
----------

We are sure that God predestines man; Scripture makes this clear, as you said. Why does He predestine man? Well... we've brought up one supposition: He predestines based on His knowledge of man's response to Christ, to the Gospel, to Himself, essentially. And then I asked,

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Rather, what is our response by nature to the Lord Almighty as outlined in His Word? And how has He chosen to respond to our response?
----------

in regards to that response that He knows. And then I thought about where we could glean wisdom from the Word of God on the subject of where we stand in our relationship to God at the time when (or before, or after) the Gospel comes to us.


I'd like to reiterate the question, though,

----------
Why did God predestine some for Heaven and some for Hell?
----------

to which you answered,

----------
Because many will reject the Son.
---------

Now, this is why God predestines some for Hell, yes? You didn't say it explicitly, but I believe you mean also that God predestines some for Heaven, because they will accept the Son--am I correct?

I hope you don't mind this way of discourse...

Click to expand...

Neal,

Please don't take any offense at my question to you, I have
no harmful sword in my hand....but is your heart ever getting resolve here at CF?
Just askin'!

Could you make your letters bigger than size 1?
For loves sake, it's really had to read. Thanks!


Connie

jsisrl said:

Reform,


Was this how it had been?


It's only being led by God with His Holy Spirit
where death to the flesh will die, to ever Love another.
We all say we've done that are are honestly walking there,
but then why are we still 'practicing' sin at almost still every
turn?

If we don't get some good instructions in Righteousness
then we are only truly sinning only against God at every
type stroke. Be it sounding very wise or just char.--assas'ing.

KEEP IN MIND:
The person whom your speaking to, ever, is THE FACE OF GOD.

Click to expand...

Reform?

Connie,

----------
Neal,

Please don't take any offense at my question to you, I have
no harmful sword in my hand....but is your heart ever getting resolve here at CF?
Just askin'!
----------

No offense taken, but I'm afraid I do not quite understand what you mean by this question. "Is my heart getting resolve here?" Do you mean, am I satisfied with the discussions that we have here?

----------
Could you make your letters bigger than size 1?
For loves sake, it's really had to read. Thanks!

Connie
----------

Just for you, my dear. I agree, though--I should probably keep it this size. I'm a fan of cross-compatability: I use only Times New Roman, which is just about the most universal font ever, and I try to keep the size readable all the time. I seem to have forgotten about those Internet users whose eyes are older than mine. I hope you can read it now!

Also, did you read Spurgeon's sermon yet? I notice you said this:

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God's Word is so ONE.
It's ONE WITH HIS WORD OF PREDESTINATION.
It's ONE WITH HIS WORD OF 'WHOSOEVER WILL.'
----------

This was the premise of Spurgeon's sermon, which is entitled "God's Will and Man's Will." You could see it as "God's Will [predestination] and Man's Will [whosoever will]."

It's a good read!! [smiles]

Ed,

So far, what do we have? We've asked the question, "Why does God predestine men for Heaven or Hell?" We've proposed that, in part at least, it's because of what He knows men will do. In looking for mention of predestination in the Bible, I found these passages:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
(Eph 1:3-6 NASB)

In the example in Ephesians, we see descriptions of when our predestination took place: before the foundation of the world. Why? Paul answers: so that we would be holy and blameless before Him. Since this is what happens after He chose us, we could guess that we wouldn't be holy or blameless if He hadn't chosen us. Praise our glorious Savior who He has provided us with redemption! We also see descriptions of the effect of our predestination: adopted as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself. Adoption! As far as I know, adoption has an active party and a passive party. I'm sure you know, in comparing God and humanity with adoption, which one is active and which one is passive. We don't see children in orphanges step forth from their house and declare to parental passerbys, "You shall adopt me." [grin] No, it is quite the other way around, where the parent assures the child of adoption by choosing him. And why? Paul answers: according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace.

And this passage:

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
(Rom 9:21-24 NASB)

In the example in Romans, we can see mention of both those destined for Hell and those destined for Heaven. And I will share with you something this poor student who doesn't claim scholarly credentials has just found out. Well, you know, Greek doesn't always translate to English in the smoothest way, right? For instance, a person may glean more meaning about the love of our Lord Jesus Christ when He is speaking with Peter after His crucifixion and resurrection (John 21:15-17) and when He asks, "Do you love Me," to Peter, Peter replies with a different word for "love." All quite interesting. [grin] But we see the same word "love," because our English word encompasses too much in itself to be entirely clear.

Here in Romans, you see, I did not realize that the word "prepared" in reference to the "vessels of wrath" differs from the word "prepared" in reference to the "vessels of mercy." I'm sure if I knew what these Greek terms meant, I could write more. As of now, words that describe the verbs, such as "aortist" or "indicative" mean nothing to me. And such passages like this in Romans would be more clear in what it's saying, of course.

What I think is right for us to say, however, is that "vessels prepared for destruction" are not destroyed for unjust reasons. That is, the Bible makes clear all over that our rebellion towards God's law is enough reason for us to be destroyed, but that God's gift of salvation is in all ways unmerited grace.

So,

In part, God predestines because He knows our response.
Explicitly, God predestines because of His gracious love (kind intention of His will) and because of His righteous wrath (on account, for example, of the just reason Rom 1:18 reveals).

Where does that leave us?

Perhaps we can look at the intertwining of these two. How does our response fit in with His decree of whether or not we are saved? That's a good question to explore, I think.

Neal said:

Ed,

So far, what do we have? We've asked the question, "Why does God predestine men for Heaven or Hell?" We've proposed that, in part at least, it's because of what He knows men will do.

Click to expand...

He knows what men will respond. I presume this is what you mean by "do".

Neal said:

In looking for mention of predestination in the Bible, I found these passages:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
(Eph 1:3-6 NASB)

In the example in Ephesians, we see descriptions of when our predestination took place: before the foundation of the world. Why? Paul answers: so that we would be holy and blameless before Him. Since this is what happens after He chose us, we could guess that we wouldn't be holy or blameless if He hadn't chosen us. Praise our glorious Savior who He has provided us with redemption!.

Click to expand...

Yes. God chose us. We cannot choose him. Agreed.

Neal said:

We also see descriptions of the effect of our predestination: adopted as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself. Adoption! As far as I know, adoption has an active party and a passive party. I'm sure you know, in comparing God and humanity with adoption, which one is active and which one is passive. We don't see children in orphanges step forth from their house and declare to parental passerbys, "You shall adopt me." [grin] No, it is quite the other way around, where the parent assures the child of adoption by choosing him. And why? Paul answers: according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace.

Click to expand...

That is correct. People are going into the orpahages to adopt. Not the other way around.
But I should also note, that the orphans (if they are older of course) could refuse to be with a potential parent.

Neal said:

And this passage:

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
(Rom 9:21-24 NASB)

In the example in Romans, we can see mention of both those destined for Hell and those destined for Heaven. And I will share with you something this poor student who doesn't claim scholarly credentials has just found out. Well, you know, Greek doesn't always translate to English in the smoothest way, right? For instance, a person may glean more meaning about the love of our Lord Jesus Christ when He is speaking with Peter after His crucifixion and resurrection (John 21:15-17) and when He asks, "Do you love Me," to Peter, Peter replies with a different word for "love." All quite interesting. [grin] But we see the same word "love," because our English word encompasses too much in itself to be entirely clear.

Here in Romans, you see, I did not realize that the word "prepared" in reference to the "vessels of wrath" differs from the word "prepared" in reference to the "vessels of mercy." I'm sure if I knew what these Greek terms meant, I could write more. As of now, words that describe the verbs, such as "aortist" or "indicative" mean nothing to me. And such passages like this in Romans would be more clear in what it's saying, of course.

Click to expand...

The word "prepared" (in the context of destruction) is Strong's 2675.
In my studies I came to a conclusion (my personal opinion) that it means "being prepared for destruction by God during this life, as in being 'setup' for hell".

Some take that word and run away with it in a dozen of different direction. But that's their problem.

The Romans 9 is showing the Pharaoh as an example of the one prepared for destruction. In Exodus we see that this "preparing" takes form of hardening his heart. And God said that he will harden Pharaoh's heart. But the Exodus is also plainly stating that the Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. God just "gave him what he wanted" - hardened his heart for him after that.

This falls within a Scriptural pattern of God's judgement of the ones that reject him. He gives them what they want -


2TH 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

And another text that I usually referred to in my mind is the Psalm of Asaph -

PS 73:18 Surely you place them on slippery ground;
you cast them down to ruin.
PS 73:19 How suddenly are they destroyed,
completely swept away by terrors!
PS 73:20 As a dream when one awakes,
so when you arise, O Lord,
you will despise them as fantasies.

And v.19 also brings to my mind what happens when they "wake up" after passing away -

JOB 27:19 He lies down wealthy, but will do so no more;
when he opens his eyes, all is gone.
JOB 27:20 Terrors overtake him like a flood;
a tempest snatches him away in the night.
JOB 27:21 The east wind carries him off, and he is gone;
it sweeps him out of his place.
JOB 27:22 It hurls itself against him without mercy
as he flees headlong from its power.
JOB 27:23 It claps its hands in derision
and hisses him out of his place.

This text itself by itself should convince anyone that it is better to be saved than not. But I am digressing.

Neal said:

What I think is right for us to say, however, is that "vessels prepared for destruction" are not destroyed for unjust reasons.

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Agree with this point completely.
But I do not agree with the interpretation of it below.

Neal said:

That is, the Bible makes clear all over that our rebellion towards God's law is enough reason for us to be destroyed, but that God's gift of salvation is in all ways unmerited grace.

Click to expand...

Although the rebellion of God's law is enough to convict anyone, I do not think that such reasoning reflects God's way properly.

Since God's grace falls on people indiscriminantly ...

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

... I do not think that a fact that a person is born in rebellion sends him to the Burning Lake. (And yes, I do understand that the technical explanation for being in the Lake is for the sins that one commits.).
I believe that one goes to the Burning Lake for rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


Also, Romans 1 (in my opinion) does not mean all the non-believers whe it refers to the "wicked". It cannot be, since that "ladder to hell" that is defined is clealy not being followed by all the non-believers. The text is clear.

Neal said:

So,

In part, God predestines because He knows our response.
Explicitly, God predestines because of His gracious love (kind intention of His will) and because of His righteous wrath (on account, for example, of the just reason Rom 1:18 reveals).

Click to expand...

OK.

Neal said:

Where does that leave us?

Perhaps we can look at the intertwining of these two. How does our response fit in with His decree of whether or not we are saved? That's a good question to explore, I think.

Click to expand...

It is an excellent question to explore.
Our answer cannot effect any of his plans. But our answer is a part of his plans.
In a way, he does not even need to see us to know our individual answer - many parents of today know their children well enough to know :"He is a good boy. He will never harm that person", or "If you speak to my son like that, he just might punch you".

If we know our children that well (I do not personally have children), how much more does God know us all before we are even born?

Thanks,
Ed