Preterist Interpretations of Scripture

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Mike Beidler

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I figured this thread could provide futurists a forum in which to ask preterists how they interpret particular passages of Scripture, especially those dealing with the "Second Coming" of Jesus and other aspects of a preterist-tinted theology.

Just give a preterist a "problem passage" and he/she will attempt to deliver an exegetically sound interpretation of said passage.

Let's use this particular thread to educate, not humiliate. This request goes for both sides. ;)
 

Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by gwyyn
ok lets start with
2 John 1:7-8

Many decievers who do not acknowlege Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is a deciever and a antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but you may be rewarded fully.

I don't see (aside from proof that the concept of the "antichrist" is not limited to a single person) how I can put a preterist slant on this verse.

It's simply condemning the Gnostic heresy that Christ didn't actually take on human flesh during his time on earth. Thus, the Gnostics effectively denied the doctrine of the incarnation. They believed that flesh was inherently evil and that God would not dare "humble" Himself to our level by putting on wicked flesh. They believed him to be simply a spirit that appeared to be flesh and bone. However, this heresy led to a collapse of the doctrine of atonement, which states that Christ's physical body and blood had to be broken and shed in order to fully remit the sin of man. If Jesus did not actually take on human flesh, then there was no atonement.

BTW, the verse you quoted speaks of Christ's "first" coming, not His "second," just as 1 John 4:1-3 does.
 
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Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by Back To The Future
I have been wondering a lot, who are the two witneses in verse 3 chapter 11 of Revelation?
They prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days clothed in sackcloth. :p
Thanks for any input on this.
Nancy

Good one. I don't think any group, futurist or preterist, has a solid answer on their identities. Some futurists believe them to be Moses and Elijah, or Elijah and Enoch. Other futurists believe them to be two men representative of a larger witnessing group. Preterists also have varied interpretations, some of which are quite odd.

I, like J. S. Russell, prefer to believe they are two actual individuals, possibly James and Peter.
 
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davo

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Originally posted by Mandy
They cann't be the law and the prophets. How do you explain people looking at their dead bodies for 3 and a half days and then God calling them up?

Whether the Two Witnesses be Moses and Elijah -typifying the Law and the Prophets, or Judah [Jews] and Israel [Gentiles -ie, the rebellious] typifying the chosen Remnant, or even John the Baptist and Jesus -typifying the Old and New Covenants [as I read somewhere -interesting], or whatever interpretation be given, these two are not literal beings -they are symbols representing something [in accordance with John's mode of writing etc].

Their raising up is simply John's way of saying "God's will, will stand." In verse 8 "bodies" in the Greek is in the singular and should read "body" -i.e., these two stand together and give the one message -so we head up a dry gulch trying to determine who's who IF we miss what they were collectively indicating. Also, we know this all has to do with that rebellious city Jerusalem -which killed the prophets etc. How? "where our Lord was crucified." Notice the symbolic spiritual language in describing Jerusalem: Sodom = immorality and Egypt = bondage, both typifying where Jerusalem was spiritually before God -hense the following judgment to come in verse 13.

davo
 
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davo

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Originally posted by gwyyn
Are the Jews still Gods chosen people in the preterist point of view????

If like other Christians they're "born again" then YES! They become part of God's chosen -according to:

1Pt 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

davo
 
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Mike Beidler

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Also, remember Christ's words to Israel: "Your house I leave to you desolate." The physical Jewish nation ceased to be God's chosen people and it was given to another nation, a spiritual nation that sprung from the dying body of Judaism--the Church of Jesus Christ.
 
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parousia70

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Originally posted by gwyyn
Are the Jews still Gods chosen people in the preterist point of view????

Gwyyn,
In the preterist doctrine, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then tread under foot for 42 months (Rev. 11:2). During that Great Tribulation which culminated in the destruction of the City and the Sanctuary in A. D. 70, the wrath of God against the Jews had come to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and the Jews had paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last cent (Lk. 12:54-59). When the fleshly covenant-nation was disinherited as God's covenant people in 70, God's wrath against her was finished. After that day, the Jews became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). And there is not one class (or "race") of man today that is in any sense accepted or rejected by God because of a particular strain of DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ.

As surprising as it may seem, consistent futurism actually fosters "Jew"-hatred! Here are some verses that show this to be true:

"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8).

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men. ...They always fill up the measure of their sins" (I Thess. 2:14-16).

In the consistent futurist doctrine, all people who call themselves Jews today are left wide open to being automatically viewed with special suspicion by Christians. Futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," and on the other hand they must remain a blood-guilty race of enemies who are opposed to all men, and whose Metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled.

Futurism makes Jews the special enemy, preterism affirms Jews are just like everyone else without Christ..... Lost.
 
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Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by Mandy
I have no idea where you get the idea that futurists see the Jews as some special enemy. The Jews are God's chosen and that He is not finished with them, God keeps His promises and everlasting covenants. Blindness has happened to them in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What Parousia70 is saying, Mandy, is that dispensationalists' favor and support for the Jews as a "chosen race" causes other nations to hate them by very virtue of the status accorded to them by Evangelicals.
 
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I would like to know in John chapter 21 verse 22 and23, twice the Lord tells Peter,"if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Is this John who wrote Revelation that is being spoken about? Because then in verse 20, Peter wants to know which is he who betrayeth thee?But right above that Peter sees the diciple whom Jesus loved?

I am just wondering, because if it is John, then The Lord knew all along he would not die. Correct??
Confussed :p
Nancy
 
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parousia70

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Originally posted by Mandy
I have no idea where you get the idea that futurists see the Jews as some special enemy. The Jews are God's chosen and that He is not finished with them, God keeps His promises and everlasting covenants. Blindness has happened to them in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Mandy, Show me from scripture how I am wrong about Israel being viewed by God as "Sodom and Egypt" today.

If Rev. 11:8 is yet to be fulfilled, then Isreal remains the special, spiritual enemy of God to this very day for their messianic blood guilt.

Again, this conclusion is inescapable if you believe Rev. 11:8 is yet to be fulfilled.

Please show me how Rev. 11:8 dosen't say Israel is in a spiritual state equal to Sodom and Egypt today in Gods eyes.

BTW, The term "Fullness of the Gentiles" does not referr to a future to us finite number of Gentile believers as you seem to be implying, but to a time that the fullness of Gods grace was finally bestowed upon the gentile community. A time long since past.
 
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