How can we see distant stars in a young universe?

Physics_guy

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According to the Bible,There used to be a canopy of "Water" (possible ice) surrounding the planets atmosphere. Water Magnifies (so they could probably have seen those stars that are extremely far away). When the flood happened this probably colapsed and fell to the earth which is why it isn't here today.

Besides the lunacy of having an ice layer surrounding the world (pressure, heat transfer, etc) you also need to understand that magnification has nothing to do with whether or not light froma distant star had time to reach Earth or not. Furthermore, water (or ice) does not magnify - curved water/ice does, just as any object with a curved surface that has a slower rate of light propagation than air will have a magnifying effect.

Now please, if you are going to use the ludicrous "God created the light already on the way" argument, explain to me why God would then create light coming from stars that never actually existed (for example SN1987a is a supernova that was observed in 1987 that was measured through fairly simple and very accurate trigonometry to be 187,000 light years away - thus that means either the light left that star 187,000 years ago, or 6,000 years ago God created light from a star that never existed and showed a false history).

Even Humphreys is not using this ridiculous argument anymore, though his is at least as ridiculous to anyone with even a single course in graduate level GR.
 
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Hydra009

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Matthew777 said:
In the Genesis account, we read that God created the stars in an instant to light up the night sky.
No, we don't.

Genesis 1:3. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

Do you see "in an instant" anywhere?
 
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Physics_guy

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In the Genesis account, we read that God created the stars in an instant to light up the night sky. Why then would He not create them in such a way that the light would reach our earth?

Ok - again with the light was created en route idea. That is great idea except light is not just brightness, it also carries information. This information can form images and a history that would mean God create things that never actually existed. See the paradox there?
 
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Self Improvement

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[Kind of like what Miller-Urey did years ago working with elements they thought existed in the early atmosphere, of which today has been (actually since the 60s) has all but been proved False,
How so? Science doesn't "proved" things false.

but yet, it is STILL taught in our Science books as though it were valid proofs for evolution.
Nope, doesn't have anything to do with evolution and science does not deal with proofs.
 
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Self Improvement

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Matthew777 said:
In the Genesis account, we read that God created the stars in an instant to light up the night sky. Why then would He not create them in such a way that the light would reach our earth?
Just another pathetic explaination for something you can't explain. Give it up already.

I can see a star 1 million light years away it already falsifies a young Earth.
 
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Dale

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Quote given by The Magi in post #5:
<<That is, they[big bang theorists] make arbitrary assumption (without any scientific necessity) that the universe has no boundaries—no edge and no center. >>

What in blazes would a decisive EDGE to the universe look like? What material would we expect this thing to be made of?
 
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Randall McNally

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caddy said:
Kind of like what Miller-Urey did years ago working with elements they thought existed in the early atmosphere, of which today has been (actually since the 60s) has all but been proved False, but yet, it is STILL taught in our Science books as though it were valid proofs for evolution.
That's not correct. At least not in Florida. The state-mandated high school biology text is Holt's Modern Biology. Abiogenesis is included in the unit on evolution, but it is clearly demarcated with a separate section. The Miller-Urey experiment is described in some detail, as are the more modern theories about the Earth's early atmosphere that are seemingly incompatible with Miller & Urey's model.

As always, my challenge to creationists to demonstrate the widely-claimed-but-rarely-seen errors of fact in school textbooks remains.
 
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anunbeliever

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I read Humphreys book and i actually appreciated where he was coming from. He cant deny that the universe is old. He explains reasons why other YEC theories like 'slow light', 'God stretched the light back to the source', and 'distance measurements are wrong' dont work. He tries to reconcile an old universe with a young Earth. His theory is that the Earth is at the centre of the universe and that, during creation week, it was within a shrinking event horizon. Time outside of the event horizon passed much faster than time within the horizon. Hence millions of years past outside for days passing on Earth.

I'll leave it to physicists and mathamaticians to explain why his theory is wrong. There are enough evidences for an old Earth and an old solar system to debunk it for me.
 
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MartinM

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caddy said:

http://answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/docs/v17n2_cosmology.pdf

This one's even more interesting. AiG's John Hartnett reviews the existing creationist proposals for solving this thorny problem, explains the problems with each of them, and proposes his own.

Problem is, having shot down every other solution creationists like to bring up - including Humphreys' joke of a model - his own model is, shall we say, somewhat lacking:

Hartnett said:
I propose a new model of type 3. During Creation
Week, all clocks on Earth, at least up to Day 4, ran at about
10–13 times the rate of astronomical clocks. Actually the
rate is a parameter of the model.

Meaing that Hartnett can pick the rate to make his numbers come out any way he likes - as you'll see in the section marked 'calculations'.

All astronomical clocks in the cosmos run at the same rate that we would measure any normal clock today. They have always done so except under special circumstances where they might have been affected by gravity. During this time the rotation speed of the newly created Earth was about 10–13 times the current rotation speed as measured by astronomical clocks, but normal by Earth clocks. By the close of Day 4 the clock rates on Earth rapidly speeded up to the same rate as the astronomical clocks.

Note the total absence of any mechanism for this to actually happen. Sounds suspiciously like 'a miracle happened'.

All of this was maintained under God’s creative power before He allowed the laws of physics to operate ‘on their own’ at the end of Creation Week.

Yup. Hartnett's solution is, indeed, nothing more than 'Goddidit'.

This model is simple in design and makes no unusual
predictions about past events.

Possibly something to do with the fact that it makes no predictions at all.

The Creation Week period, by
definition, is not expected to be a period where
natural law explanations apply.

In other words, no scientific explanation of creation is possible, and 'creation science' is an oxymoron.

In this model, the laws of physics are suspended while creation is in progress and enormous time dilation occurs between Earth clocks and astronomical clocks. This solves the light-travel-time problem faced by creationist cosmology and makes all astronomical evidence fit the Genesis account. No nonphysical requirements are placed on the model.

...no non-physical requirements are placed on the model? The laws of physics are suspended! How much more non-physical could it get?



So basically, Hartnett, one of AiG's own physicists, denounces the existing creationist attempts to explain the light from distant sources, denies the possibility of a scientific explanation altogether, and resorts to invoking a miracle.

So much for 'creation science'.
 
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anunbeliever

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MartinM said:
...no non-physical requirements are placed on the model? The laws of physics are suspended! How much more non-physical could it get?

So basically, Hartnett, one of AiG's own physicists, denounces the existing creationist attempts to explain the light from distant sources, denies the possibility of a scientific explanation altogether, and resorts to invoking a miracle.
Ive heard variants of this. Some say the universe is old whilst the Earth is young. Others say both the universe and the Earth are old, but in Genesis 1:1 God recreated the surface of the Earth and all life on it. Others say that life here evolved over millions of years, but God first intervened when he made homo sapiens into a spiritual being. All require miracles (not that there's anything wrong with that).
 
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3Amig(o)s

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I really don't see what's wrong with a miracle? I mean he is God, right? Can't he do anything?

Anyway, you guys CAN'T say that your "BELIEF" in Evolution is not a type of religion/faith/belief system...

1. You have to BELIEVE there's no God

2. You have to BELIEVE that either:
A. Matter has always been here
B. Matter was created by something, but where did this creator come from - is he a GOD? Was it always here? Therefore it is a GOD, correct?
C. OTHER?

3. You have to BELIEVE all the rest of your theories are correct because you really were NOT there when you BELIEVE it happened. I mean you can't really PROVE it. There's no footage of those phenomenoms happening...correct?

Heck, I, a Christian, BELIEVE there is a GOD. I admit mine is a religion/faith/belief system...

How about you? Will YOU admit it?
 
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raphael_aa

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3Amig(o)s said:
I really don't see what's wrong with a miracle? I mean he is God, right? Can't he do anything?

Anyway, you guys CAN'T say that your "BELIEF" in Evolution is not a type of religion/faith/belief system...

1. You have to BELIEVE there's no God

2. You have to BELIEVE that either:
A. Matter has always been here
B. Matter was created by something, but where did this creator come from - is he a GOD? Was it always here? Therefore it is a GOD, correct?
C. OTHER?

3. You have to BELIEVE all the rest of your theories are correct because you really were NOT there when you BELIEVE it happened. I mean you can't really PROVE it. There's no footage of those phenomenoms happening...correct?

Heck, I, a Christian, BELIEVE there is a GOD. I admit mine is a religion/faith/belief system...

How about you? Will YOU admit it?


You're making an error assuming that christianity is in some way opposed to evolution. Most christians in the world have no problem with evolution. Evolution says nothing about God in the same way the theory of gravity says nothing about God. Evolution (and gravity) rest upon evidence.
 
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3Amig(o)s

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Well, as far as the light from stars "millions of LY away"...

The way I see it is KIND OF the big bang way. What I mean is that I believe that it all started at a single point - GOD. He said "Let there be..." and it expanded from there. I think that when GOD made the light back then, He made it travel alot faster as the galaxies, planets, and stars were expanding away from Him - maybe even faster than it was expanding.

Now, I do believe that this clears up the whole thing on the starlight issue (although this is just MY thoughts on what HE might have done...)

Anyway. I don't really see what the problem is for God to do a miracle. What gives you the right to write it all off as though there is a rule book? I know that you guys would say that this would have nothing to do with creation science and all but I mean, HE'S GOD...miracles are HIS business I mean, when God created matter, wasn't THAT a miracle? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what things (in your opinion) can't be miracles? Can there be no miracles for you guys to accept it? How far does it go? How much can be miracles and how much not? I mean HE IS GOD! I guess you guys don't like the idea that if there is a "blank", and we can't fill that blank by natural explanations, GOD fills it. Well, sry. I guess you guys will have to talk to HIM about that one...

I think what you guys want is a logical explanation for everything. Well that's not logical. Further more, GOD is not logical (at least from a humanistic mindset). Not even you guys have a logical explanation for everything you believe. You try...but no cigar. YES, you study and learn more, but right now evolution (and everything that has to do with it) is still a religion in the sense that the are still unanswered questions, and you have to BELIEVE that certain things that you guys don't know about yet, are true. Not to mention that there are so many new theories and hypothesis coming out all the time. It's hard to know what to trust at the same time as you are trying to refute as you learn. That really goes for both sides. You know this well enough.

Well, that said, off to bed!

peace guys.

amigooo
 
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3Amig(o)s

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raphael_aa said:
You're making an error assuming that christianity is in some way opposed to evolution. Most christians in the world have no problem with evolution. Evolution says nothing about God in the same way the theory of gravity says nothing about God. Evolution (and gravity) rest upon evidence.

Well, although your assumption is incorrect because of the problems evolution makes for Genesis etc,

I was wondering where you got your statistcs when you said: "Most christians in the world have no problem with evolution."...?
 
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caddy said:
Kind of like what Miller-Urey did years ago working with elements they thought existed in the early atmosphere, of which today has been (actually since the 60s) has all but been proved False, but yet, it is STILL taught in our Science books as though it were valid proofs for evolution.
the Miller Urey experiments were proof of the abiotic synthesis of amino acids and other important chemicals. Please find me a sience book that treats these experiments as a "valid proof of evolution" I would be most fascinated. Creationists often claim that textbooks do this, but when asked all the textbooks seem to vanish.
Thanks for the Heads up. I'm NOT familiar with Humphreys at all.:thumbsup:
really? did you actaully read the link you posted? your statement that you are unfamiliar with Humphreys indicates that you don't actually have a clue as to what is "very interesting" and are simply accepting anything you want to hear.
 
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raphael_aa

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3Amig(o)s said:
Well, although your assumption is incorrect because of the problems evolution makes for Genesis etc,

I was wondering where you got your statistcs when you said: "Most christians in the world have no problem with evolution."...?

The leadership of the largest denominations have all made public statements of their support for evolution as not inconsistent with christianity. Most non-fundamentalist Biblical commentaries interpret Genisis in an allegorical way. The virulent creationist stance especially in public education is a particularly American phenomenom although it is possible given the poll results below even this is misrepresented.


In a new nationwide poll on the subject, conducted by the polling firm headed by Daniel Yankelovich and commissioned by People For the American Way Foundation, 83 percent of Americans express the view that it's Darwin's theory of evolution, nor creationism, that belongs in science class.

Question: Agree or disagree: A person
can believe in evolution and still
believe God created humans and
guided their development?

All Americans
[*]
Agree 68%
Disagree 28%
Not sure 4%
(*.)Americans who have heard of
the term evolution (95% of the total)

The view of Genisis as allegorical in no way diminishes its value as a text nor its inspiration by God. The view that one particular interpretation of scripture holds the holy high ground is demonstratably false given the thousands of denominations who each hold that their interpretation is the correct one.
 
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caddy

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I stand Corrected: Biogenesis, which then leads down the road to Evolutionary thoughts and Concepts:

at the time Miller was relying heavily on the atmospheric theories of his doctoral advisor, Nobel laureate Harold Urey. Did he create the correct atmosphere or not? Nobody knows for sure, but the consensus is that the atmosphere was not at all like the one Miller used. Miller chose a hydrogen-rich mixture of methane, ammonia, and water vapor, which is consistent with what many scientist thought back then. Issue: Scientist don't believe that anymore. In the 1960s the evidence for it was little, by the 70s, chemists--Marcel Florkin said the "concept behind Miller's theory of the early atmosphere 'has been abandoned'. But IT IS STILL MENTIONED as though it were fact in the text books. TypeSAddict seems so convincing and convinced that it is True. Why? Two leading origin-of-life researchers, Klaus Dose and Sidney Fox, confirmed that Miller had used the wrong gas mixture. In 1995 Science magazine experts now dismiss Miller's experiment because the "early atmosphere" looked nothng like the Miller-Urey simulation.

What's the best hypothesis today? That there was very little hydrogen in the atmosphere because it would have escaped into space. They say that it probably consisted of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and water vapor. So why is Miller-Urey still presented since most since the 60s say NO! Good question.

So, let's replay and assume we have the correct atmosphere. What do we get? "Not amino acids" says Wells, "what we get are Formaldehyde and Cynaide! Chemicals certainly not conducive to bulding life, on the contrary, they destroy life and cells. Very toxic stuff.

Let's assume again that someday a scientists actually are successful at producing amino acids from a realistic atmosphere. Wells says "it's not chemically possible, but lets assume." How far would that be from creating a living cell?
"Very far, Incredibly far" he says. That would be the first step in an extremely complicated process. You would have to get the right number of the right kinds of amino acids to link up to create a protein molecule--and that would still be a long way from a living cell. Then you'd need dozens of protein molecules, again in the right sequence, to create a living cell. The odds against this are astonishing. "The gap between nonliving chemicals and even the most primitive living organism is absolutely tremendous."

Illustration: "Put a sterile, balanced salt soltion in a test tube. Then put in a single living cell and poke a hole in it so that its contents leak into the solution. Now the test tube has alll the molecules you would need to create a living cell, right? You would already have accomplished far more than what the Miller experiment ever could--you've got all the components you need for life."
The problem is "you can't make a living cell," he said. "There's not even any point in trying. It would be like a physicist doing an experiment to see if he can get a rock to fall upwards all the way to the moon. No biologist in his right mind would think you can take a test tube with those molecules and turn them into a living cell.

Point being, even if you can accomplish the thousands of steps between amino acids in the Miller-Urey "TAR"--which probably didn't exist in the real world anyway--and the components you need for a living cell--all the enzymes, the DNA, and so forth--you're still immeasurably far from life. Period


"People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive." Blaise Pascal, The Art Of Persuasion



Carmack said:
That's evidence for abiogenesis, not evolution.

How has it been proven false?
 
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