What would it take to trust Christ?
- Thread starter Angel4Truth
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Well, the Bible says that anyone who does not accept Christ as their Savior cannot enter into Heaven and have eternal life. But, even though I'm a Christian, I hate the idea of "good" people going to hell simply because they were raised in a family that follows another religion or something like that. I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but I know that EVERYONE is a child of God whether they accept that or not, and I know he loves us all and probably doesn't like the idea of people going to hell either. That is why he died for us. I have heard people say that maybe after someone dies, they get one more chance to accept God. I honestly don't know, maybe someone else can help more with that one. But I do know that no matter what happens after we die, its much better to accept God in this lifetime.
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Westvleteren
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I think what the OP means to ask is not, "What would it take for you to trust Christ?" but "What would it take for you to trust me?"
After all, it's not Christ telling us to convert; it's Christians.
After all, it's not Christ telling us to convert; it's Christians.
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I am very able to say what I mean the first time .Thanks. Whether or not you trust me is irrelevant to your salvation or lack of it .I get absolutely nothing if you get saved or not .Westvleteren said:
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Westvleteren
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Then why do you ("you," specifically and "you," meaning all Christians) keep trying so hard?Angel4Truth said:
Why don't you trust my cousin's ex-girlfriend's dog groomer?
Obviously you have a stake in it, or you wouldn't care.
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David Gould
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Angel4Truth said:
Fair enough. But the problem is, I have never heard Christ say anything. I have read what some unknown dude a couple of thousand years ago says that Jesus said; I have had modern day Christians tell me what Jesus said (and, more to the point, what Jesus meant - and many Christians give me completely different meanings). But Jesus has been silent.
So I have to trust that some unknown author from a couple of thousand years ago was telling the truth. I have nothing with which to weigh this author's words other than my own experience, and I have never seen the things that this author claims to have seen. I know more about the world than this author, having benefited from 2,000 years of human learning. And the world he describes is not the world I see when I look around me.
Why should I trust this unknown author? Why should I trust modern day Christians, who all tell me different things about Jesus?
I see no reason to. I guess for me to trust Jesus he would have to tell me things that I could then check against the world I see around me.
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vajradhara
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Namaste Angel4Truth,
thank you for the interesting post.
hmm.. well.. trust Christ for what, exactly? i suppose that you mean in the sense of asking what sort of evidence would i need to believe the claims of the New Testament, is that correct?
i'll presume so and answer... if not, please correct me and i'll give it another go
well.. i suppose that the first thing that i would have to know, or addressed... i'm not sure how it really goes in your tradition... is thus:
what's the deal with the soul? why do you think you have one? why do you think i have one? what does it do? is the soul in any way different than consciousness? if so, in what manner is it different?
well.. that should suffice to start a conversation for me. please understand, i actually rather like Christianity, in it's more Gnostic forms.
thank you for the interesting post.
Angel4Truth said:
hmm.. well.. trust Christ for what, exactly? i suppose that you mean in the sense of asking what sort of evidence would i need to believe the claims of the New Testament, is that correct?
i'll presume so and answer... if not, please correct me and i'll give it another go
well.. i suppose that the first thing that i would have to know, or addressed... i'm not sure how it really goes in your tradition... is thus:
what's the deal with the soul? why do you think you have one? why do you think i have one? what does it do? is the soul in any way different than consciousness? if so, in what manner is it different?
well.. that should suffice to start a conversation for me. please understand, i actually rather like Christianity, in it's more Gnostic forms.
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Actually no ,I have no stake in it , what I do however is know both sides of the issue and because I believe what Gods word says I do not wish to see people perish .Westvleteren said:
If you saw someone drowning and knew how to save them ,would you sit there silent? Maybe thats a better question .
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Westvleteren
Abt. 12 Trappistenbier
Altruism is a stake. Nothing wrong with that. But if it gives you warm fuzzies, you have something to gain.Angel4Truth said:
And that analogy doesn't really work. If I see someone drowning, I at least know the water is real.
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Westvleteren said:
Yes my analogy does work to your stated question about what my 'stake' is - what do you get if you save someone from drowning? Nothing other than the knowledge that you did what you could to help someone else .
Now are we to consider that you could care less about anyone else besides yourself? Maybe that needs to be adressed before we can continue this .
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Westvleteren
Abt. 12 Trappistenbier
Oh, come now, I didn't say that... Really, I'm your classic grumpy-atheist-with-a-heart-of-gold; all I need is for someone to bake me cookies and hold me while I cry.Angel4Truth said:
I'm just saying that if you come away from an act, any act, with a good feeling about yourself, then you've gained something from it. I'm not passing judgment on that;feeling good is... well, good.
My point was that you wouldn't have to worry about whether or not we trust Christ, if Christ were taking care of business. Since he isn't, we have to trust you and what you have to say about Christ.
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Actually yes , you insinuated that I gain something from your salvation , and that I believe you need to trust me by your own words when its not true at all . Obviously by your responses it appears that you do not believe in selfless acts .Westvleteren said:
You need to also consider that its you posting on a christian forum , I didnt knock on your door did I? However now that you are here , I consider that you are here for a reason so because I do not want to see you or any other non believer perish , I spend my time here doing what I can to get the message of Christ across to those who either may not have heard it or have not had it presented to them in such a way that they could understand it on a very real level.
Trusting Christ is the giving up of self and maybe you dont understand how people can do something without any gain at all . I am already saved , whether or not i share the gospel with 0 people or 100, my gain has already been aquired and its my salvation which was given to me by NOTHING I did anyway other than to trust in what Christ did for me .
As far as your last comment : Christ took care of business on the cross when He gave up His life and shed His innocent blood to take your place as well as everyone elses and rose again to life defeating the bondage of sin. It was also recorded for you and the world to know and the message has been spread ever since , so i would say thats quite a fine job . He will also make sure you know Him deeply and intimately if you desire to .
If you decide throughout your entire life before you die that you do not want that gift of mercy and grace and decide instead that you would rather be eternally seperated from God - then God will most certainly grant your desire because He isnt about to force Himself on someone who doesnt want Him .
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Eponine
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In a lot of cases, it's not a matter of "not wanting him." It's a matter of having wanted Him, but then giving up because He's never there when you need Him. Not in any recognizable way, at any rate. It's also a matter of the Bible contradicting itself, and the way the Bible was formed.Angel4Truth said:
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tindomerel said:
What did you want Him for and how was He not there when you needed Him? If you like also you can pm some of what you believe are contradictions and we can talk about them - and if you dont mind , what do you mean by how the bible was formed?
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Eponine
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I mean that the Bible as we know it today was formed by a series of councils where the various Christian writings in circulation at the time were put to the test to see if they were inspired by God or not. In other words, anything that didn't agree with their beliefs was thrown out.Angel4Truth said:
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Actually the entire Ot was already in existance the same as it is today and also if you read the early church Fathers you can compose the entire NT from their writings too ,but the reason for the council wasnt to decide what was scripture , it was to decide what scripture wasnt - what didnt conform to what the apostles actually taught and Christ taught and what didnt line up with those teachings . It was to protect the church from false teachings and doctrines , not to establish doctrine . Anyway I dont want to get into tons of detail because this isnt what the thread is about just wanted to be clear on what you meant .
Im still curious to what you didnt answer though , if you dont want to answer it here could you pm me about it?
Im still curious to what you didnt answer though , if you dont want to answer it here could you pm me about it?
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Eponine
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What do you mean, what I didn't answer? I did PM you, though I admit I didn't really go into the detail of why I changed my faith. If you want, I'll explain it to you, but I think Biblical contradictions are plenty to talk about for tonight.Angel4Truth said:
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