St. Augustine on allowing science to inform how we read Scripture

raphael_aa

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aboutface said:
I would like to add my ten cents ( or for you Americano's my Dime's) worth to the debate.
The Bible teaches us that death entered the world when Man ( Adam) sinned.
Evolution teaches us that death was around for millions of years before Adam could have existed.
How then should we view our world?
Scripture through the eyes of science, throwing out what the god science says is wrong in the Bible. And with that you have just destroyed any possibility of belief in the Virgin Birth, let alone His ressurection, or
Science through the eyes of Scripture and where they differ then accept that our "knowledge" is flawed and God is right?
Your choice, but I think in the end,your very soul may just depend upon it.
For I have no doubt that if you do not believe all of scripture then your faith may when put to pressure just let you down.

Is it just remotely possible that the story of creation is allegory and the lessons it may teach us are spiritual and mythic rather than historical? Is it just remotely possible that christians who do not hold a literal view of Genisis are NOT second class christians, nor is their faith weak? Is it just remotely possible that God and science are not opposed, and indeed that science gives us valuable tools to see the fingerprints of God in the world? Is it just remotely possible that physical evidence doesn't lie and that if our interpretations tell us it does our interpretations must be in error?

Is it just remotely possible that you are not the spokesman for how God sees things?
 
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Vance

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aboutface said:
I would like to add my ten cents ( or for you Americano's my Dime's) worth to the debate.
The Bible teaches us that death entered the world when Man ( Adam) sinned.
Evolution teaches us that death was around for millions of years before Adam could have existed.
How then should we view our world?
Scripture through the eyes of science, throwing out what the god science says is wrong in the Bible. And with that you have just destroyed any possibility of belief in the Virgin Birth, let alone His ressurection, or
Science through the eyes of Scripture and where they differ then accept that our "knowledge" is flawed and God is right?
Your choice, but I think in the end,your very soul may just depend upon it.
For I have no doubt that if you do not believe all of scripture then your faith may when put to pressure just let you down.

1. The Bible teaches that spiritual death entered teh world through Man's sin.

2. I do not throw anything out of the Bible, I seek to determine exactly what the proper reading of the Scripture is. The evidence from God's Creation itself can not be ignored as a factor in this process. Just as it helped Christians properly read Scripture when we discovered that the solar system was heliocentric, rather than geocentric. But many, who hold your view, clung to their geocentric reading of Scripture and condemned those who allowed the new science to change their views.

3. The virgin birth or the resurrection do not contradict science in the least, since they were SUPERnatural events, events which would override the natural laws and processes that God put in place. Science does not say that the supernatural does not happen, it can not make a statement about such things one way or the other. Science is just there to describe the natural processes, and to study what has happened naturally in the past. Science can say that the virgin birth can not happen in accord with the natural processes, but it can not say it did not happen.

But past events for which there is specific evidence in the natural world, or an absence of specific evidence that would be there, science can tell us about. Unlike the virgin birth or the resurrection, past events like the flood or a recent creation would mean the physical world would look a certain way, would act a certain way, and would test a certain way.

The Flood and a recent creation are not false because they would be supernatural, since supernatural is perfectly fine. They are false because the evidence we have contradicts it. Not the natural laws, but the actual evidence. There things which exist which would NOT be there, and there should be things there which are NOT there, if those events took place.

4. You draw the false dichotomy between "Man's knowledge" and "God's knowledge". OF COURSE God's knowledge in such a comparison would control. But that is not what is being compared here. We are comparing Man's fallible understanding of God's Creation and Man's fallible understanding of God's Scripture. Both are subject to error in equal measure.

5. Lastly, you make the ultimate mistake of the YEC in assuming that those who follow your personal interpretation of Scripture somehow have less FAITH in that Scripture. I can never understand where this belief comes from. I have complete and utter faith in the true and proper reading of God's Holy Scripture. I study it deeply and with the Spirit's guidance every day. It is my constant companion and my deepest source of wisdom. Please tell me why a person who thinks your interpretation of Scripture is almost assuredly wrong somehow has less faith in that Scripture.
 
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aboutface

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Vance said:
1. The Bible teaches that spiritual death entered teh world through Man's sin.

Yeah? Then why did God kill the animal, as a sacrifice, to cover Adam and Eves nakedness (sin)?
Vance said:
2. I do not throw anything out of the Bible, I seek to determine exactly what the proper reading of the Scripture is. The evidence from God's Creation itself can not be ignored as a factor in this process. Just as it helped Christians properly read Scripture when we discovered that the solar system was heliocentric, rather than geocentric. But many, who hold your view, clung to their geocentric reading of Scripture and condemned those who allowed the new science to change their views.
And yet if you look at the way the universe was constructed, according to scripture, the rest of the universe was in place AROUND the earth. God's focus was on the earth it would seem.

Vance said:
3. The virgin birth or the resurrection do not contradict science in the least, since they were SUPERnatural events, events which would override the natural laws and processes that God put in place. Science does not say that the supernatural does not happen, it can not make a statement about such things one way or the other. Science is just there to describe the natural processes, and to study what has happened naturally in the past. Science can say that the virgin birth can not happen in accord with the natural processes, but it can not say it did not happen.
I highlight your last sentence because that is my point, science can say, and does, that in accordance to "natural" processes creation can not happen, It cannot say that it didn't. Please remember, the natural processes you refer to occur within a now less than "good' or perfect environment.
And if you listen closely, what I am saying to you and any others who might try to hear is that creation was a SUPERnatural event. One that according to your words overrides the natural laws. Remember science does not say that the supernatural does not happen, it ( and I quote) can NOT make a statement about such things one way or the other.
Vance said:
The Flood and a recent creation are not false because they would be supernatural, since supernatural is perfectly fine. They are false because the evidence we have contradicts it. Not the natural laws, but the actual evidence. There things which exist which would NOT be there, and there should be things there which are NOT there, if those events took place.
According to science these things would be there, but science is a man made "empirical " measuring device. Remember that. "Evidence"? I call into question such "evidence". Take the skeleton of Lucy. very important evidence for evolution, tampered with by man ( using an angle grinder) so that the chimpanzee skeleton's hips fitted a more upright position so that it matched what the presenters thought it should. FALSE evidence.
And the great deciever is not capable of putting into place "evidence", to confuse man and to lead him away from beliving the Authority of God's word?
Just a side note here, where is your empirical scientific evidence that God exists? If the flood never happened, and you say it didn't because science has proved it, then surely you cannot continue to believe in God, because there is no scientific evidence for Him. If Creation never happened, and you say it didn't, then surely . But no of course, the evidence we have contradicts the SUPERnatural event.
Vance said:
4. You draw the false dichotomy between "Man's knowledge" and "God's knowledge". OF COURSE God's knowledge in such a comparison would control. But that is not what is being compared here. We are comparing Man's fallible understanding of God's Creation and Man's fallible understanding of God's Scripture. Both are subject to error in equal measure.
Not so. We are actually comparing mans blurred vision of "nature" taken from within a fallen system to God's inspired Word.
Vance said:
5. Lastly, you make the ultimate mistake of the YEC in assuming that those who follow your personal interpretation of Scripture somehow have less FAITH in that Scripture. I can never understand where this belief comes from. I have complete and utter faith in the true and proper reading of God's Holy Scripture. I study it deeply and with the Spirit's guidance every day. It is my constant companion and my deepest source of wisdom. Please tell me why a person who thinks your interpretation of Scripture is almost assuredly wrong somehow has less faith in that Scripture.
you put one fallen mans interpretation on another fallen mans words. Don't do it. What I said is: ( and I qoute)
Science through the eyes of Scripture and where they differ then accept that our "knowledge" is flawed and God is right?
Your choice, but I think in the end,your very soul may just depend upon it.
For I have no doubt that if you do not believe all of scripture then your faith may when put to pressure just let you down.
The important part of that staement, you have overlooked, so I have emboldened it and underlined it. You see without an empirical sinless, deathless world, then the wages of sin cannot possibly be death and the cure for death cannot possibly be Christ, for without the first the latter is not necessary. This I contend, is the only difference between Christianity and any other belief that man follows.Anyway you will believe what you will believe and I do not intend to try to persuade you one way or the other. My intention is to get you to try to open your eyes just a little bit wider than what science, ( a mighty impressive, but somewhat limited god) will allow.
Blessings and peace. We will differ in thoughts but I will not stop loving any of you.
 
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raphael_aa

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aboutface said:
My intention is to get you to try to open your eyes just a little bit wider than what science, ( a mighty impressive, but somewhat limited god) will allow.
Blessings and peace. We will differ in thoughts but I will not stop loving any of you.

In my view it is the YEC God who is limited. The God I worship participates in the ongoing evolution of the world, fully in charge and at the same time fully vulnerable.

The YEC God seems like a blunderer who, as the author of a play, has to keep appearing on stage and changing the scenery when events take a turn He didn't expect.

The YEC God seems to keep locking His keys in the car.

Now, how does it feel when the patronizing shoe is on the other foot?
 
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Nathan Poe

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Matthew777 said:
Given that all Scripture is God-breathed, we should allow the Bible to inform how we read science.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.

Given that all Scripture is God-breathed because Scripture tells us that all Scripture is God-Breathed, we should not allow the Bible to inform how we read science.
 
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Vance

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Even if you accept that Scripture is inspired wholly by God, He still expects us to interpret it correctly, to use a proper hermenuetic and exegetic process. Since He also gave us the revelation of the Creation itself, why would we NOT allow this other revelation to be a factor in the proper interpretation of Scripture?

This does not mean that we need to understand the nature of origins to understand the message God gives to us in Genesis 1 and 2. The messages there are about the WHO and the WHY, not the HOW and the WHEN, and these messages come through loud and clear without any detailed knowledge of the science of origins.

But, if we do not use the evidence of nature at least to help us see that it was not written in a literal/historical literary style, we can come to the false conclusion that the text is ALSO telling us the WHEN and HOW and then teach that error as dogmatic doctrine. This has two dangers. First, it can obscure the power of the actual messages by focusing attention on the other areas. Second, it can cause people who know that WHEN and HOW taught by these literalists is not true to doubt Scripture altogether.

I think it is time for YECs to realize this danger and, regardless of personal beliefs, avoid them by not teaching those beliefs as dogma, with the "either/or" emphasis that we see so often.
 
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bevets

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bevets said:
Whoever takes another meaning out of Scripture than the writer intended, goes astray, but not through any falsehood in Scripture. ~Augustine


Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; . . . Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know. ~ James Barr Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University

If the author had not wanted readers to think this was poetry, how could He have been more specific? If someone told you the resurrection was 'poetry' (not literal: i.e. '3 literal days but its a POEM'), what would your response be?

But let us return to the damning quote from James Barr. Not only has he offered his considerable expertise (which happens to be in the ONLY relevant field for this topic), he compounds the embarrassment: He tells us that this is the consensus of people who ACTUALLY READ hebrew. Certainly there have been creative interpretations that may seem convincing to people who are not hebrew experts (and WANT to believe). These interpretations deserve just as much consideration as any other crack pot theory.

Stay tuned. More straining at gnats is sure to follow.

Vance said:
Even if you accept that Scripture is inspired wholly by God, He still expects us to interpret it correctly, to use a proper hermenuetic and exegetic process.

Do you accept that scripture is inspired wholly by God?

Do you consider original intent an important hermeneutical consideration?
 
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raphael_aa

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bevets said:
Do you accept that scripture is inspired wholly by God?

Do you consider original intent an important hermeneutical consideration?

Why are you repeating this nonsense? I've shown you in other threads that Barr by no means ascribes to a literal reading of Genisis. This is just dishonest.
 
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bevets

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bevets said:
Whoever takes another meaning out of Scripture than the writer intended, goes astray, but not through any falsehood in Scripture. ~Augustine


Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; . . . Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know. ~ James Barr Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University

If the author had not wanted readers to think this was poetry, how could He have been more specific? If someone told you the resurrection was 'poetry' (not literal: i.e. '3 literal days but its a POEM'), what would your response be?

But let us return to the damning quote from James Barr. Not only has he offered his considerable expertise (which happens to be in the ONLY relevant field for this topic), he compounds the embarrassment: He tells us that this is the consensus of people who ACTUALLY READ hebrew. Certainly there have been creative interpretations that may seem convincing to people who are not hebrew experts (and WANT to believe). These interpretations deserve just as much consideration as any other crack pot theory.

Stay tuned. More straining at gnats is sure to follow.

bevets said:
Do you accept that scripture is inspired wholly by God?

Do you consider original intent an important hermeneutical consideration?

raphael_aa said:
Why are you repeating this nonsense? I've shown you in other threads that Barr by no means ascribes to a literal reading of Genisis. This is just dishonest.

I do not know who you are or what case you claim to have made. If you feel you have a compelling case, lay it out, and allow forum readers to decide for themselves the merits of each side. Ad hominem is not argument. Disputation is not refutation.

Evolutionists have often protested ‘unfair’ to quoting an evolutionist as if he were against evolution itself. So let it be said from the outset that the vast majority of authorities quoted are themselves ardent believers in evolution. But that is precisely the point... The foundations of the evolutionary edifice are hardly likely to be shaken by a collection of quotes from the many scientists who are biblical creationists. In a court of law, an admission from a hostile witness is the most valuable. Quoting the evolutionary palaeontologist who admits the absence of in-between forms, or the evolutionary biologist who admits the hopelessness of the mutation/selection mechanism,* is perfectly legitimate if the admission is accurately represented in its own right, regardless of whether the rest of the article is full of hymns of praise to all the other aspects of evolution. ~ Andrew Snelling

* or the liberal Hebrew scholar who admits original intent,
 
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raphael_aa

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bevets said:
I do not know who you are or what case you claim to have made. If you feel you have a compelling case, lay it out, and allow forum readers to decide for themselves the merits of each side. Ad hominem is not argument. Disputation is not refutation.

Evolutionists have often protested ‘unfair’ to quoting an evolutionist as if he were against evolution itself. So let it be said from the outset that the vast majority of authorities quoted are themselves ardent believers in evolution. But that is precisely the point... The foundations of the evolutionary edifice are hardly likely to be shaken by a collection of quotes from the many scientists who are biblical creationists. In a court of law, an admission from a hostile witness is the most valuable. Quoting the evolutionary palaeontologist who admits the absence of in-between forms, or the evolutionary biologist who admits the hopelessness of the mutation/selection mechanism,* is perfectly legitimate if the admission is accurately represented in its own right, regardless of whether the rest of the article is full of hymns of praise to all the other aspects of evolution. ~ Andrew Snelling

* or the liberal Hebrew scholar who admits original intent,

To get a more honest idea of what Barr's thought is I REPEAT my post 49 on this very thread:

' In order to avoid imputing error to the Bible, fundamentalists twist and turn back and forward between literal and nonliteral...exegesis....The typical conservative evangelical exegesis is literal, but only up to a point: when the point is reached where literal interpretation would make the Bible appear 'wrong,' a sudden switch to nonliteral interpretation is made.'


Barr, James, The Bible and the Modern World (New York, NY: Harper & Row, 1973). Barr observes that conservative evangelicals are willing to use any argument, however contrary to their religious convictions and however religiously trivial, to support biblical inerrancy, (Fundamentalism, p. 259).

Now to the argument you are making. You want to pin all your hopes on the original intent of the authors. You seem to belive in a simplistic 'dictation' view of revelation where the authors use EXACTLY those words and ideas that God plants in their heads. There is ABSOLUTELY no evidence for this.

The authors were people of another time with a non-scientific cosmological view. They lived in a small universe in which their particular tribe was the centre.
 
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Risen from the Dust

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My apologies. My wife and I have just moved into a new home over the Easter weekend. There has been much rejoicing. The kids are settled in now. Most of the boxes are now unpacked. Only a few knick-knacks remain to be arranged.
:clap:


And, as far as my internet access is concerned, I've finally had my phone/internet access hooked up today.
:crossrc:


Finally I have some time to reply to this excellent and thought provoking post. I will research the thoughts you've expressed and post them later tonight.
:cool:
 
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Vance

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Moving into a new house . . . very exciting and VERY tiring!

Just one thing I want to clarify. The purpose of setting out what Augustine says on this issue is basically two-fold.

First, I simply think he has a excellent hermenuetical approach and terrific, well, attitude, about this issue. This does not mean that I necessarily ascribe to the conclusions he reached using this hermenuetic or the conclusions he reached on every area of theology.

Second, it is important to see that this approach to interpreting Scripture is NOT something new and recent and (more sinister) developed to counter evolutionary thought. It was one approach from the very earliest days of the Church.
 
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Risen from the Dust

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Vance said:
Moving into a new house . . . very exciting and VERY tiring!

Just one thing I want to clarify. The purpose of setting out what Augustine says on this issue is basically two-fold.

First, I simply think he has a excellent hermenuetical approach and terrific, well, attitude, about this issue. This does not mean that I necessarily ascribe to the conclusions he reached using this hermenuetic or the conclusions he reached on every area of theology.

Second, it is important to see that this approach to interpreting Scripture is NOT something new and recent and (more sinister) developed to counter evolutionary thought. It was one approach from the very earliest days of the Church.

No problem and no disagreements here -- to some extent. This is exactly what I was going to discuss (however, some thoughts on the ancients "contemporary thinking" I felt was also in order). :)

Again, sorry for the delay. I've come across some old papers that I've read before. I'm in the process of copying certain thoughts and commenting on them as appropriate to the discussion of St. Augustine and his influence on scientific thinking in relation to a literal reading of the Scriptures.

Will post tonight. Please note, this will be a long and detailed reply. :yum:
 
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Vance

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The Bible is not a scientific tract, its purpose is completely different. It seeks to explain and enlighten people regarding the beliefs necessary for their salvation and with regards to important concepts regarding God and creation.
Everything that exists speaks and points to God; the Bible intends to teach us to correctly interpret the symbols that exist in reality, everywhere.

Thus, the Creation is not meant to be an account of how things took place chronologically; rather, it explains the much more important conceptual and logical order of things. St. Augustine did not believe it to be a literal 6 24-hour period; nor did most Christians traditionally, as far as I know.

Thus, evolution is not per se in contradiction with the Bible, though it may or may not be true.
 
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Risen from the Dust

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St. Augustine on allowing science to inform how we read Scripture

OK, this is a bit long, but trust me, it contains some very interesting insights from probably the
man with the greatest influence on Christian doctrine after Paul. He had a lot of things to say that
impact DIRECTLY on this discussion.

Vance, this is an excellent subject for this forum -- as it illustrates how one should be open to
various ideas in regards to creation.

In regards to St. Paul's influence, much could be said. The historian Harnack perhaps expresses it
succinctly enough as follows:

Marcion after the Apostolic Fathers; Irenaeus, Clement and Origen after the Apologists;
Augustine after the Greek Fathers, the great reformers of the Middle Ages from Agobard to
Wessel in the bosom of the medieval Church; Luther after the Scholastics; Jansenism after the
Council of Trent: everywhere it has been Paul in these men who produced the
reformation.

Within his own time, when St. Augustine took up the letters of St. Paul, a new era certainly
opened for the thought and life of the church. To the extent that St. Augustine has outlined the
apparent dichotomy between science and the Scriptural record (and its necessary congruence), he
is probably one of the most influential thinkers within Judeo-Christian dialogues -- and respected
by many denominations (even those that might despise his Catholicism).

However, as the priest and deacon of my local Catholic church have noted in a private discussion,
St. Augustine most likely would've been well known even if St. Ambrose of Milan hadn't
converted him. This is to say, his knowledge of philosophy and spiritual matters, although initially
dualistic, were already well developed before he, after growing weary and tired of the more
hedonistic lifestyles he was accustomed with, submitted before (or was pushed into) his calling
from God.

For example, it would appear that St. Augustine was well known within Manichean circles of
philosophy -- which touched on a wide array of gnostic concepts within most Greco-Roman
philosophies and sciences. Many have speculated that there was something enthralling to an
ardent mind like St. Augustine's in the Manichean system, a system which was kindred in many
ways to that of modern Rationalism. Within this framework, reason was exalted at the expense of
faith, and the disciple's inner consciousness was the touchstone of truth.

The result of this is well pointed out by St. Augustine (in Contr. Faust xxxii. sec 19):

Your design, clearly, is to deprive Scripture of all authority, and to make every man's mind
the judge of what passage of Scripture he is to approve or disapprove. This is not to be a subject
to Scriptures in matters of faith, but to make Scripture subject to you. Instead of making the high
authority of Scripture the reason for approval, every man makes his approval the reason for
thinking a passage correct.

In this regard, prior to his conversion to Catholicism, St. Augustine's opinions on certain matters
were already valued, at least on the local level, due to his knowledge of many philosophies and
sciences of his time and prior. In other words, St. Augustine was already quite a learned man
despite his young age -- and given time, he would have most likely become well known even had
he not converted. His continuation of the discussions of the nature of the "primal chaos" from
which "the creation" proceeded were already often discussed within Greek philosophies well
before St. Augustine arrived onto the scene -- yet his "contemporary knowledge" of the then
"ancient material" assisted him very much within in his own time in these philosophical discussions.

For example, consider the similarities of the questions poised within the following text and
compare them to St. Augustine's inquiry into the mystery of creation...

Was the world always in existence and without beginning or created, and had it a
beginning? Created, I reply, being visible and tangible and therefore sensible; and all sensible
things are created. . . .Which of the patterns had the Artificer in view when He made the world --
the pattern of the unchangeable or of that which is created? If the world is indeed fair and the
Artificer good, it is manifest that He must have looked to that which is eternal -- Thus, when all
things were in disorder, God created in each thing all the measures and harmonies which they
could possibly receive. For in those days nothing had any proportion except by accident nor did
any of the things which now have names deserve to be named at all, neither fire not water nor the
other elements. All these the Creator first set in order and out of them He constructed the
universe.

--Plato, Timaeus, c. 370 B.C.

One would note that many theological statements made by St. Augustine in his later years almost
seem to directly respond to the questions presented by the most well known of the Greek
philosophers, such as Plato's quote noted above -- albeit, answered centuries later within his own
time.

These philosophies, it should be noted, also periodically included concepts very similar to what St.
Augustine later refereed to as "seminal seeds". Some also taught (or at least discussed) the
concept of these seeds being created in the instant of creation and later "springing forth" in the
course of time -- with both phenomena happening to varying degrees depending on which theories
were being discussed and who was upholding such said theories.

Although initially a "hearer" of Mani, later, as a devout Catholic, St. Augustine often engaged in
the reconciliation of the wisdom of the Greco-Roman world with the Scriptural record. This
would be similar to St. Thomas Aquinas attempting to reconcile Aristotle's thoughts with
Judeo-Christian theology. Like St. Thomas, it does not appear that St. Augustine was attempting
to confine the Scriptural record to the parameters outlined by Greco-Roman philosophies. Rather,
it seems more appropriate that St. Augustine was attempting to salvage whichever "gold mines of
wisdom" the philosophers of his era and prior had to offer.
 
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Risen from the Dust

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I suppose, in a way similar to how Aristotle fled the Athenians so that they would not "sin twice
against philosophy", St. Augustine fled the world and embraced the church so that Rome would
not "sin twice against theology."

Many Catholic theologians would agree that Greece was fertile ground for the proclamation of the
gospel due to the similarities that were shared by Christians and some of the Greek philosophers.
I suppose one could also point toward similarities between the Stoic philosophy and the Christian
church -- since both were considered cultures which were aimed at guaranteeing the rights of both
rich and poor, freeman and slave, man and woman alike. Likewise, Philo of Alexandria, displaying
a more hellenistic influence within a more strictly Jewish context, conceived of God as the Logos,
the Supreme Will undergirding all of reality -- and St. John the divine employs the literary device
in comparison to Christ with much success amongst the Greeks as well.

It is important to note that, within the context of texts which you have quoted below, it seems to
be, at least on some major points, that St. Augustine was engaging in a close examination of
something very similar to Anaximander of Miletus' concept of the apeiron (indefinable).
Anaximander conceived the apeiron as some endless, unlimited mass, subject to neither old age
nor decay -- which perpetually yields fresh materials from which everything we can perceive is
derived. Although, based on the fragments we possess today, he never defined this principle
precisely, it has generally been understood as a sort of primal chaos based on Aristotle's and St.
Augustine's comments of it -- and this periodically coming from other sources which have cited
Anaximander's ideas, such as Cicero.

And what is it? I asked the earth, and it answered me, "I am not He." And whatever is in
the earth confessed the same. I asked the sea and its deeps, and the living, creeping things, and
they answered, "We are not your God; seek Him above us." I asked the moving air; and the
whole air with its inhabitants answered, "Anaximenes was deceived; I am not God."

Most scholars agree that St. Augustine's reference to Anaximenes was being contrasted to
Cicero's account found in On the Nature of the Gods:

After Anaximander came Anaximenes, who taught that the air is God.

In this sense, the apeiron was supposed to in some way embrace the opposites of hot and cold,
wet and dry, and directed the movement of things, by which there grew up all of the host of
shapes and differences which are found in the world. What is known of the conception of the
aperion is that Anaximander offered up the theory in direct response to the earlier theory of
Thales, who had claimed that the primary substance was water. Anaximander basically reasons
that water cannot embrace all of the opposites found in nature -- for example, water can only be
wet, never dry -- and therefore, it can not be the one primary substance.

That everything was somehow formed from water seems to be a universal concept found in
various ways in the thoughts of the ancients. As but one example, consider an Egyptian Creation
myth from c. 2500 B.C.

In the beginning, only the ocean existed, upon which there appeared an egg. Out of the egg
came the sun-god and from himself he begat four children: Shu and Tefnut, Keb and Nut.

Likewise, even the Hebrew Scriptures seems to express a similar thought within the Genesis
account of creation.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and
the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Shortly after this passage, again found within the Hebrew Scriptures, the actions of the waters
seems to play a key role in the earth's formation..

And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from
water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water
above it. And it was so.

My personal opinion is that this passage could be referring to some primordial fission taking place
within the universe's earliest moments -- maybe.

Later, within the Christian Scriptures, St. Peter seems to echo a similar thought and even casts a
warning to those who would deliberately overlook this information.

But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth
was formed out of water and by water.

2 Peter 3:5

Exactly what the Scriptures refer to here seems to be a mystery.

However, I suppose it's not too far of a stretch to discern, employing modern science, that some
primordial event is being described where superheavy waters were being impacted against other
superheavy waters within something akin to some universally-sized particle accelarator --
powered up by God to energy levels surpassing 2.5x10**79 GeV and eventually, by God's
direction, leading to the cataclysmic transmutation of the very elements within which we see that
he formed life from.

His way is in the whirlwind and the storm, and clouds are the dust of his feet.

In the very beginning there was a void?

A curious form of vacuum?

A nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound?

Yet the laws of nature were apparently in place -- and this curious vacuum held potential. Out of
this energy, matter emerged a dense plasma of particles that dissolved into radiation and back to
matter. Particles collided and gave birth to new particles. Space and time boiled and foamed as
black holes formed and dissolved.
 
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Risen from the Dust

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Many will point to Lemaitre developing his concept of a "primeval atom" published in 1927 as
being the beginning of Big Bang theory. Using various principles and philosophical premises he
reasoned that if one retraced the entropy of the universe back in time that one would inevitably
come toward a universe which considted of a single particle -- a vast primeval atom with zero
radius.

However, Lemaitre also based his theories on Einstien's formulae which seemed to indicate that
the early history of the universe points toward it emerging from a singularity. Prior to his own
research, Einstien reasoned that something prevents the collapse of the universe -- something like
the centrifugal force of rotation, but not rotation itself. In his mind, this force must somehow
increase with distance: it had never been observed on earth or in the solar system, but it must be
strong enough at cosmological distances to overcome gravity.

Einstein introduced a new term into his equations of gravity, "the cosmological constant," a
repulsive force whose strength increases proportionally to the distance between two objects, just
as the centrifugal force of a rigidly rotating body increases proportionally to its radius. But this
force, he thought, act in all directions equally, like gravity, so it does not disturb the symmetry of
the universe. According to Einstein himself, this was his greatest blunder -- even if today some
think he might have been correct all long.

The idea that the universe had a finite lifetime existed back in the mid-nineteenth century, although
only on the popular fringes of science. The first suggestuion that the universe originated in a
creative explosion -- the first Big Bang theory in our modern era -- actually came from the pen of
Edgar Allan Poe in 1849. Poe was not only a well-known poet and writer, was was also a
scientific populizer who kept himself up-to-date on the latest astronomical research. In the
book-length essay Eureka Poe rjected the idea of an infinite universe, citing Obler's objections.

Poe actually reasoned that a universe governed by gravitation would collapse in a heap if not kept
apart by some form of repulsion. He postulated that God had, in an enomrous explosion at the
creation, thrust all the stars apart. Like a rocket racing into the sky, the stars and galxies would
first expand, and then contract into a final catastrophe, the end of the world.

Going back even further than St. Augustine, when one reads Anaxagoras from c. 430 B.C., one
may be surprised by the similarity of his statements when compared to current Big Bang related
creation theologies (and current ideas on the formation of the solar system):

The formation of the world began with a vortex, formed out of chaos by Energy. This
vortex started at the center and gradually spread. It separated matter into two regions, the rare,
hot, dry and light material, the aether, in the outer regions, and the heavier, cooler, moist material,
the air, in the inner regions. The air condensed in the center of the vortex, and out of the air, the
clouds, water and earth separated. But after the formation of earth, because of the growing
violence of the rotary motion, the surrounding fiery aether tore stones away from the earth and
kindled them to stars, just as stones in a whirlpool rush outward more than water. The sun, moon
and all the stars are stones on fire, which are moved round by the revolution of the aether.

I personally find thoughts like this, expressed over 400 years before Christ's birth, quite
fascinating. Coming back to St. Augustine, within the context of the Genesis account of creation,
he appears to be testing Anaximander's concept of the apeiron (or something very similar to it) in
order to determine if there was anything that directly contradicted the Scriptural record -- or to
modify it so that it could be recast within a Judeo-Christian context. In other words, this seems to
be, like many theories before him, an early precursor with much discourse into some form of Big
Bang theory.

A story logically begins at the beginning. But this story is about the universe, and unfortunately
there are no data for the Very Beginning. None, zero. We don't know anything about the universe
until it reaches the mature age of a billionth of a trillionth of a second -- and that is a very short
time after creation. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, it may be true
that someone is just making it up. We are indeed in the realm of philosophy and only God knows
for sure what happened at the Very Beginning.

But perhaps those he has spoken with know a little something too.

I have mentioned that Augustine, as one of his guidelines for interpreting Scripture,
indicated that evidence from the natural world can and should inform our interpretation as one
factor.

Before examining St. Augustine's guidelines, it is perhaps noteworthy to remember that he
employed an Old Latin version of the Hebrew Scriptures -- which he preferred even after he
became acquainted with St. Jerome's "new translation" from the Hebrew (the Vulgate). St.
Augustine actually disapproved of the new translation, believing that the Greek Septuagint version
of the "Old Testament" was "divinely inspired" -- and that it was "presumptuous" for a single
scholar to undertake such a revision.
 
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Risen from the Dust

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Coming back to your initial point, however, although I agree that one of St. Augustine's guidelines
for interpreting Scripture indicated that evidence from the natural world can and should inform our
interpretation as one factor, I would also note that he is not necessarily always implying "evidence
from the natural world" within the texts that have been quoted.

On the one hand, "evidence from the natural world" appears to draw the implications of some
form of "scientific methodology" which can be in some way directly tested. This scientific
methodology is something that, despite the claims of some, St. Augustine and other ancients may
very well have understood. In some ways, it was acutally quite well known as the Socratic
method.

A basic outline of it goes something like this:

Socratic Method
1. Wonder. Pose a question (of the "What is X ?" form).
2. Hypothesis. Suggest a plausible answer (a definition or definiens) from which some
conceptually testable hypothetical propositions can be deduced.
3. Elenchus ; "testing," "refutation," or "cross-examination." Perform a thought experiment by
imagining a case which conforms to the definiens but clearly fails to exemplify the definiendum, or
vice versa. Such cases, if successful, are called counterexamples. If a counterexample is
generated, return to step 2, otherwise go to step 4.
4. Accept the hypothesis as provisionally true. Return to step 3 if you can conceive any other case
which may show the answer to be defective.
5. Act accordingly.

For the Socratic method to work as a teaching tool (and not just as a magic trick to get kids to
give right answers with no real understanding), it was crucial that the important questions in the
sequence were logically leading rather than psychologically leading. There is no magic formula for
doing this -- but one of the tests for determining whether one has likely done it was to try to see
whether leaving out some key steps still allowed people to give correct answers to things they
were not likely to really understand.

In a very similar fashion within our modern era, the scientific method is a process by which
scientists -- collectively and over time -- endeavor to construct an accurate representation of the
world. In this sense, the word "accurate" would be seen as referring to that which is reliable,
consistent and non-arbitrary. Recognizing that personal and cultural beliefs influence both our
perceptions and our interpretations of natural phenomena, we aim through the use of standard
procedures and criteria to minimize those influences when developing a theory.

As a famous scientist once said, "Smart people (like smart lawyers) can come up with very good
explanations for mistaken points of view." In summary, the scientific method attempts to minimize
the influence of bias or prejudice in the experimenter when testing an hypothesis or a theory.
Incidently, similar to the Socratic method mentioned above, the scientific method likewise has
similar steps. In fact, its steps are nearly a mirror image of the Socratic method -- albeit, today we
have far more accurate instruments coupled with a tremendous quantity of divers observations of
universal phenomena to measure reality with.

A basic outline of the scientific method goes something like this:

Scientific Method
1. Wonder. Pose a question.
2. Hypothesis. Suggest a plausible answer (a theory) from which some empirically testable
hypothetical propositions can be deduced.
3. Testing. Construct and perform an experiment which makes it possible to observe whether the
consequences specified in one or more of those hypothetical propositions actually follow when the
conditions specified in the same proposition(s) pertain. If the experiment fails, return to step 2,
otherwise go to step 4.
4. Accept the hypothesis as provisionally true. Return to step 3 if there other predictable
consequences of the theory which have not been experimentally confirmed.
5. Act accordingly.

In both the Socratic and the scientific methods, one is teaching by asking instead of by telling.
However, even this has its limits.

The most fundamental error of the scientific method is to mistake the hypothesis for an explanation
of a phenomenon, without performing experimental tests. Sometimes "common sense" and "logic"
tempt us into believing that no test is needed. There are numerous examples of this, dating from
the Greek philosophers to the present day.

Another common mistake is to ignore or rule out data which do not support the hypothesis.
Ideally, the experimenter is open to the possibility that the hypothesis is correct or incorrect.
Sometimes, however, a scientist may have a strong belief that the hypothesis is true (or false), or
feels internal or external pressure to get a specific result.

Another common mistake arises from the failure to estimate quantitatively systematic errors (and
all errors). There are many examples of discoveries which were missed by experimenters whose
data contained a new phenomenon, but who explained it away as a systematic background.
Conversely, there are many examples of alleged "new discoveries" which later proved to be due
to systematic errors not accounted for by the "discoverers."

In a field where there is active experimentation and open communication among members of the
scientific community, the biases of individuals or groups may cancel out, because experimental
tests are repeated by different scientists who may have different biases. In addition, different types
of experimental setups have different sources of systematic errors. Over a period spanning a
variety of experimental tests (usually at least several years), a consensus develops in the
community as to which experimental results have stood the test of time.
 
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