Help for my Catholic friend?

Stormy said:

Plus she says that they will have to petition both her ex-husband and the other members of the wedding party. All these papers are then sent to Rome for a decision. She does not think that the fact they were miserable together will rate as grounds for the Church.

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1. The ex-husband does get a chance to present his side of things. He is not required to do so, but he is given a window of opportunity ( a set time frame ) to fill out the same forms she will. This is only fair.

2. The witnesses you use are not set (ie: I don't know what she means about the other members of the wedding party... never heard of this). Typically, it's ideal to present three additional witnesses on top of your parents who, if they are still alive, automatically get sent paperwork.

3. Nothing goes to Rome. Each diocese has it's own tribunal that handles annulments.

4. Being miserable immediately upon becoming married does play a factor into the decision making of an annulment. That was specifically one of the questions I was asked in my own annulment form.

It seems to me that:
A. She doesn't have the entire story straight.
or
B. She's feeding a line of hooey because she's had her mind set and she's leaving irregardless of what the Church actually said/does.

I am glad to hear that Stormy. My opinion of everything that has been said here, is that she needs to talk to people that know what they are talking about. I remember you saying that your priest is a good priest. Ask him what she should do, he probably knows the right people to talk to.

Stormy,

Just pray for her that God will reach her heart where she will be so horrified at the thought of leaving the Eucharist that she will do what it takes to get this straighten out.

Nobody has mentioned the current husband, could he be holding up this whole thing because he does not understand what the church teaches and why?

Hi Stormy - This is very difficult, I understand, for your friend and for you on the outside of this situation looking in . . especially when there is confusion about what the Church actually teaches about this . .

But first, I don't know how old your friend is, but just because she has been raised Catholic all her life, that speaks nothing at all to what she really knows about the Catholic faith, or her understanding of the SACRAMENT of marriage within the Church . . there was poor catachesis in the Church the last several decades . .


You basically asked 'why can't God and the Church simply forgive her, erase all the past and let her live her life normally from where she is at right now today? If she repents, why can't the Church simply forgive her and let her go forward in this happy marriage?'


The problem is, the Church has to assume, for the protection of the individual souls involved in situations like this, that the first marriage was indeed SACRAMENTAL . . that an unbreakable covenant was interred into by the 2 persons . . And since the word of God, the bible, says 'what God has joined together, let no man put asunder it treads very carefully in situations where someone wants or needs an annulment. Because the Church will not put assunder what God has put together, it will not grant a divorce . . they are obeying Christ in this. So what the Church does do instead, is to determine if God put the marriage together in the first place . . and so, they have several things they need to check, as discreetly as they can, to see if indeed it was a Sacramental marriage . .

Now, for a marriage to be Sacramental, it does not mean that they had to be married in the Catholic Church, but that the individuals had to have entered into marriage sacramentally . . and to do so, one of the requirements is that both are validly baptized . . Baptism is the first sacrament which is necessary for the reception of other sacraments . . so the Church first looks to see if both parties were validly baptized . . . (and this doesn't mean that they had to be baptized in the Catholic Church, but in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) - so in order for their marriage to begin to be sacramental, both had to be validly baptized . . .


So, you might ask her if her original marriage was within the Church or if she knows the baptismal state of her ex-husband . . only to perhaps offer her encouragement if she tells you he was not baptized, or bapized incorrectly . . everything gets much simpler if this is the case . .


The problem that arises is if they were both validly baptized, then they have the ability to confer the Sacrament of Marriage on each other . .and if they did, the Church cannont undo this, or man would be putting assunder what God has put together . .

So then, the Church has to go further to determine if other conditions for a Sacramental marriage were met . . such as the intentions of the persons getting marriage . . if her ex-husband or she had no intention of sticking it out in marriage, i.e. I will stay married as long as it is convenient for me, but if it gets to where I don't like it, I am out of here, then there was no sacramental marriage .. one has to also intend that it be sacramental, even if they don't understand what it means to be sacramental . . they have to have the intention to be committed till "death do us part" . .

I think what people are saying in regards to the short duration of her marriage is that it is a good indication that one or both of them did not have this intention fully in there heart . . but we cannot judge that which is why the Church NEEDS to go through this annulment procedure in order to determine what was the true state of the persons married at that time . .

Again, the Church has to assume that the marriage was sacramental till proved otherwise so that they err on the side of caution . . if they did it the other way, they would be accomplices to the sin of adultery . .

Now, the issue of sin and forgiveness . . IF her first marriage was indeed sacramental, (there is serious doubt here by those of us who are answering you that it was, but IF it was) and she left that marriage, then any sexual relationship she has outside of that marriage is adultery . .so IT is sin . .

So, IF the marriage was sacramental, then she has been living in adultery, because to repent of sin means you turn away from it and don't commit it again . ..

Did she sin by marrying her first husband .. not necessarily so, especially if they were both validly baptized! . . So one can make a BAD CHOICE of marriage partners, but that does not make that choice a SIN.

To leave a "bad" but sacramental marriage to seek a better one, and then enter in sexual relations with another person IS a sin, no matter if you were divorced from your previous husband and legally married again to someone else, because, according to Christ's words, if a couple gets divorced, and then the persons remarry, then they commit adultery . .


So, the questions isn't so much did she sin by getting married to her first husband, but is she LIVING in sin right now with her second? They Church has to assume for safety reasons, that her first marriage was probably valid and this second one is not UNTIL they have ascertained the facts as best they are able to . .


The Church is not throwing her out . .she can receive the sacraments except communion, because the Church wants to err on the side of caution for THE GOOD of HER immortal soul!

A Sacrament is an OATH . . . the New Covenant is a COVENANT and by nature a Covenant is a covenant of OATHS . . you accept the Covenant by making an oath, a vow, that you will live by the Covenant . . The FIRST Sacrament is Baptism . . we speak of it as Baptismal VOWS for this reason . . we vow to turn away from sin and death and give ourselves to Christ and His New Life, and to Obedience to Christ . . .. Each Sacrament you partake in after that carries with it a renewal of this VOW and additional vows . .that is why we say marriage VOWS . ..


Now, a Covenant, which comes with Vows, also comes with blessings and cursing . . blessings if you honor your conventual vows, cursing if you dishonor them . . and Paul speaks to us about receiving communion in an "unworthy" manner, not discerning the body of our Lord, and for that reason many are sick or have died among the Corinthians . .this is pretty heavy!!

But if someone partakes of the Body and Blood of our Lord, they are making a Vow, renewing their Baptismal vow, and if they do so intending to return to sin (ie if a married spouse is having an adulterous relationship with another, and has no intention of stopping, but to continue to live in sin and partakes of communion anyway) then they are eating and drinking a curse to themselves! This is pretty heavy stuff!! And it is imperative to understand this in order to understand why the Church requires an annulment! The Church does not want to be guilty of being a cause of cursing in one's life! The Church is to protect and nurture the soul, not to cause it damage!

So we see that regarding the covenantal vows of communion, it is the clearest and most common and powerful RENEWAL of our Baptismal VOWS! . . IF the Church were to allow her to receive communion while still actively having sexual relations with a man they had not yet been able to determine is adultery or no, then the Church would be guilty of being a participant in permitting her to make a vow that could result in danger to her soul!

The Church is not trying to be controlling. . but protective of her soul and its eternal state!


But it seems to me that she is not seeing it in this light, and this could be very possibly due to not understanding what an annulment is or means, or what even Communion is or means . . it is indeed the Real Presence, and she may believe this with all her heart .. but she may not understand the danger to her soul by partaking in it if she is indeed living in a state of adultery!

During an annulment investigation, the Church does ask that she refrain from sexual relations, and the time can be considerable depending on how in depth the investigation has to go .. this is for her PROTECTION, so that she can partake fully in the sacraments of the Church, so she can partake in Communion and receive God's grace . . she would then not be engaged in an action that could really be a sin . . . we just don't know if it is or not right now . . and the Church wants to err on the side of caution. . .


Our bad choices carry with them repercussions . . this is one of the repercussions her "bad" choice in marriage partners originally carries if she wants to be fully reconciled with the Church in her current marriage . . there are of course no guarantees at the beginning of an annulment proceeding . . they don't know what they are going to find.

The devil though will instill fear and doubt and hopelessness where ever he can, and he will cause her to believe there is no hope for her current marriage or that it is to hard to go through the annulment, or that the Church is asking too much, being too controlling, etc . . he tries to flip the truth around so it is standing on its head instead of its feet and to get her to look at it from the wrong perspective . .

If you can help her see that the Church wants to protect her and help her, she may be willing to go through the process . . and that she doesn't have to leave the Church, and how very important it is that her children be able to receive the Real Presence of Jesus in communion when they are old enough to do so . . her own childrens' eternal security is at stake in any decision she makes . .

If she is glad she had them baptized, then she has some understanding of the importance of the sacraments . . talk to her about how she would be denying them participation in the most powerful and important of sacraments, the Eucharist if she leaves the Church!! Help her see the implications for her children, even if she can't receive the Eucharist . . if she goes to another church, she will not receive the Eucharist there, so what would she be gaining? Nothing, but she would loose even being in a Mass where Jesus is truly present . .the grace of that far outweighs an other church's service where there is no True Presence . .


She made a "bad" choice it sounds like originally in her first marriage . . and this is now her cross to bear . . Jesus said if we don't take up our crosses and follow Him, we cannot be His disciples . . does she want to follow Christ?


Encourage her as much as possible to stay . .



Regarding the cost of annulment . . it costs the Church in the thousands to do, they ask that a portion of it be offset by those seeking annulment if they can afford to do so, but it is not required . . the Church absorbs the majority of the expense itself . .


Peace in Him!

Wow, excellent post Little Flower.

Little Flower,

That was great. Maybe if Stormy printed that out and had the women read it, it may help out the situation.

Shelb5 said:

Stormy,

The women is not being made to leave the Church that is HER choice to leave. It sounds as if she does not want to take the time or effort to do what it takes to be reconciled and have her marriage blessed by God or to even understand the Church’s reasons for her need to, which is the teaching of Jesus Christ.

It happens but it is not the Church's fault. People sin, the Church don't make them sin and they screw up their life and sometimes they do not want to do what it takes to clean up their mess and they want to sweep it under the rug and blame the big bad mean uptight binding Church instead of looking to how they created this mess for themselves.

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Well said........the Church will not and does not force anyone to leave. Even excommunicants may attend the Mass.

Great post!Double edged sword.

Stormy,

Welcome to the Catholic faith. Your learning what it is to live in this world as a Catholic- it is not easy is it?

It's painful to see the sheep run away from the good shepherd and that is why sometimes he must break our legs and carry us home (through our suffering and hitting rock bottom) so we can heal and learn not to run away any more.

There was a Pope; I can't recall which one who said in reference to Napoleon trying to bring down the Church. He said something to the effect, we have enough with in the Church trying to bring it down, surly no one from the outside can.

It is not that Catholics purposely try to bring down the Church but they do not understand the teachings properly and when the time comes because they are faced with a consequence to their sin they have by that time been to heavily influenced by this worldly lifestyle and also at the same time the heavy Protestant influence our country is under. It penetrates even the catechized Catholic mind to some degree. Catholics truly are the sign of contradiction

Unfortunately there are life long Catholics who were raised Protestant in their understanding of God.

I am sorry to hear that your friend believes that she is the master of her own soul but this dates back to the garden, wanting to be our own god knowing what is good and evil for our soul. What she needs now is prayer.

Stormy said:

Here is where I think the problem lies. Catholics need to be better informed!

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Yep, that is exactly correct. We need to be better informed. It needs to start with parents. Parents need to teach their children about marriage. The family should be marriage prep class. Kids should grow up learning and seeing from their parents what marriage is suppose to be. Unfortunately the vast majority of families do not teach their children what marriage is. Thus people think that marriage is something to be taken lightly. People view marriage as a way to receive pleasure. They do not see it for what it is? It is a vocation, a place that people learn how to love as God loves. This requires sacrifice and dying to oneself, but that is what God wants. He wants us to sacrifice and make it work, give oneself completely to the spouse, as God gives completely of himself to the Church. Pleasure will be a fruit of this sacrifice and agape love, however we should not be seeking pleasure, for if we do that we can be easily deceived in using the spouse as an object or a means to an end.

I believe that every Catholic should study Theology of the Body. It is imperative that we do so, if we want to change this world of divorce and death into a culture of life and love. It is essential that we understand the meaning of marriage, and that we live it, and that we pass it on to our kids. We need to teach our children that they are to give themselves totally as a gift to their spouse, whether it be a human being or the Church. That marriage is a sacrament, where the two become one and create a love that is so profound that sometimes, 9 months later that love has a name.

By understanding the meaning of our sexuality, and of marriage we will come to understand the meanings of our life. The meaning of our life is to learn how to love like God. We can only do this by his grace and by following his example, the example is made evident to us upon the cross. Where Jesus gave of himself so completely on the cross that he was tortured and killed for the sake of us being reunited to his Father. But it didn't end there, he then literally gave himself to us Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the appearance of bread and wine, so that the Church may become one, and be united to him as his bride.

I believe that if your friend, Stormy, would have been taught the Theology of the Body, that the pain of divorce would not have occurred. However, it did happen, and the fact of the matter is, is she willing to sacrifice her pride and her desires for the better of her soul and her husband, or is she not. She may not understand it, but if she believes that the Catholic Church is the Church instituted by Jesus Christ, and has the power to bind and loose, then she needs to follow the wisdom of the Church. I will pray for her, because prayer conquers all.

Thank you, Stormy, for your concern about this friend of yours.

Stormy said:

She did as many people would do ... cash in on a fruitless, miserable marriage, and seek happiness with someone else. Where was her Priest at the time? Why didn't the shepherd of her soul tell her how important it was for her to receive an annulment?

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Did she ask at the time for help?

Maybe one day she will be able to get over this feeling that the Church has thrown dirt on her family. I can only imagine her feelings. I look upon the faces of her boys, 7 months and 3 years, and there is this revelation that the Church has to be wrong! I see her husband pick them up from daycare and I admire this kind and gentle father.

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If the Church is "wrong", then the scriptures are wrong. It's that simple. Christian marriage is a once for all thing. Again it boils down to whether you believe Jesus or not. Remember that John the Baptist was martyred for defending the same principle.

I spoke to her, but I am not a counselor, and I am unable to erase her pain.
At this point she is looking for another church home to be with God.

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Will she really "be with God" in "another church", if she willfully disobeys His word?

I'm afraid her apparent decision to seek "another church" rather than go through the annullment process and the sacrifices it might demand, leaves me with the impression that her catholicism is of the fair weather sort.

Many people today want not to conform to the gospel, but for the Church to bless whatever lifestyle they choose. This lady apparently wants to be recognised by the Church, so she can share fully in communion. Yet she is prepared to give up communion forever, if her lifestyle is not unconditionally blessed. So how much does she actually seek communion, rather than using the issue of communion as an excuse to demand that the Church bless her lifestyle choice?

What is of concern is that many protestant churches are nowadays willing to defy the clear word of scripture on this matter, and bless such arrangements.

Do "cradle" Catholics miss much of the Church teachings because of their youth?

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Perhaps because of very poor catechesis in many areas.

I would advise anyone seeking a divorce to know that they must immediately seek an annulment also! Don't you think that is the wise thing to do?

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Yes.

It has been quite a few months since I have posted anything here. I am glad to be back and I hope this helps. My husband and I were civillaly divorced in 1999. In early 2001 I went to my priest with questions about annulment and even began the process. First, let me assure you, an annulment does not cost thousands of dollars. Cost does vary from parish to parish, but I paid about $200. However, I was assured that, had I not been able to afford this, other options were available. I was then requested to write about my courtship and marriage. This was a long, arduous process and during this time my husband and I were reconciled. This painful process helped us to solve some problems and reunite. We were never annulled and had to re-marry only civillaly for legal reasons of course. It sounds to me that your friend was married before and after divorcing CHOSE to marry outside of the Church. (She would not have been able to re-marry in the Church without an annulment). The Church only wants her and her husband to be reconciled to God. Yes, her former husband will be contacted and asked to participate with his "side of the story". But this process is mostly for healing. However, I will say this...my priest, after reviewing my initial statements, did not believe my husband and I had grounds for annulment. Scripture is clear that divorce is disdainful and if reconciliation can not occur then it is best to remain unmarried than to live in sin. This may sound harsh, but it is true. I would, however, encourage your friend to not be afraid. Many people leave the Church for various reasons, but mostly they just can't accept something the Church has established. Good luck.
Cindy

cindylou said:

It has been quite a few months since I have posted anything here. I am glad to be back and I hope this helps. My husband and I were civillaly divorced in 1999. In early 2001 I went to my priest with questions about annulment and even began the process. First, let me assure you, an annulment does not cost thousands of dollars. Cost does vary from parish to parish, but I paid about $200. However, I was assured that, had I not been able to afford this, other options were available. I was then requested to write about my courtship and marriage. This was a long, arduous process and during this time my husband and I were reconciled. This painful process helped us to solve some problems and reunite. We were never annulled and had to re-marry only civillaly for legal reasons of course. It sounds to me that your friend was married before and after divorcing CHOSE to marry outside of the Church. (She would not have been able to re-marry in the Church without an annulment). The Church only wants her and her husband to be reconciled to God. Yes, her former husband will be contacted and asked to participate with his "side of the story". But this process is mostly for healing. However, I will say this...my priest, after reviewing my initial statements, did not believe my husband and I had grounds for annulment. Scripture is clear that divorce is disdainful and if reconciliation can not occur then it is best to remain unmarried than to live in sin. This may sound harsh, but it is true. I would, however, encourage your friend to not be afraid. Many people leave the Church for various reasons, but mostly they just can't accept something the Church has established. Good luck.
Cindy

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Great Post! Thanks for sharing this. Have you been on a Marriage Encounter yet?

It takes humility to admit one's mistakes and to seek reconciliation. The power of our God simply amazes me.