Preterism and Christ's Return

how does Christ's return fit into your theology

First of all my theology (and all related subjects) must fit Christ's return, not the other way round.

That being the case the first place to look is the recoreded sayings of Jesus. He spoke of a kingdom growing in the sight of and along side of the evil and taught that the seperation would come at the 'harvest' which he personally defined as the 'end of the ages'. He also stated that in order for this kindom to prosper it it best that he not remain on earth in the body but ascend to the Father and send the Comforter to aid in hte conversion of such men God has set apart for glory.


The Psalmist tells us, in the most often referred Psalm in the NT;
Ps 110:1
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
(KJV)


The great evangelist Paul made it clear the final enemy is death and the consumate end of death is resurrection.



Christ specified resurrection at the 'last day'.

So its plain. There is no seperation of good and evil in history. Resurrection takes place and the end of history. And though Christ's bodily presence is not required to raise the dead, in his glorious unveiled state I reckon there is ample evidence that death cannot exist.

Therefore the turning point, when history ends and the entire creation enters its eternal state, will be makred by the glorious bodily return of Jesus Christ

An old song says;

When the Trumpet of the Lord shall sound

And Time shall be no more

And the Morning breaks eternal bright and fair...













The sky shall unfold,

preparing His entrance;

The stars shall applaud Him

with thunders of praise,

The sweet light in His eyes

shall enhance those awaiting;

And we shall behold Him

then face to face.



And we shall behold Him,

We shall behold Him

Face to face

in all of His glory,

O we shall behold Him,

We shall behold Him

Face to face,

our Savior and Lord.



The angel shall sound

the shout of His coming;

The sleeping shall rise from

their slumbering place.

And those who remain

shall be changed in a moment;

And we shall behold Him

then face to face.



And we shall behold Him,

We shall behold Him

Face to face

in all of His glory.

O we shall behold Him,

We shall behold Him

FAce to face

our Savior and Lord.



Hitch

Ben_Hur said:

And quite honestly, this Escatology forum has basically become a preterism-dispensationalism forum. I'm hoping that a discussion of Christ's return will bring some discussion back to "Escatology."

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Eschatology is the study of "last things"... Both preterism and dispensationalism deal with "last things"...again, ignorance is not necessarily bliss..

Ben_Hur said:

So it sounds like the basic difference you have with dispensationalist (in the case of Christ's return) is the definition of what the "last day" means...maybe?


What about Sodom and Gomorrah? It appears that God separated the righteous from the unrighteous in that case. I think a lot of dispensationalists look at that as a model of God removing His before he lays judgement upon the unrighteous - like a model of the rapture. Same with the flood.

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So it sounds like the basic difference you have with dispensationalist (in the case of Christ's return) is the definition of what the "last day" means...maybe?

Yeah you know the 'literal when ever its convienent' people.

When Christ speaks of the 'end of the ages' Ill take his word. Obviously he is referencing the final seperation.

Hitch

Ben_Hur said:

For the preterists here, and I have to assume you are partial preterists, otherwise you would not be allowed to post here, how does Christ's return fit into your theology?

I have to ask this because one member pointed me to this site, http://planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=5, which, by the definition of the forum rules, appears to describe a FULL preterist theology. And quite honestly, this Escatology forum has basically become a preterism-dispensationalism forum. I'm hoping that a discussion of Christ's return will bring some discussion back to "Escatology."

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The (imo) difference between the Jesus of preterism and dispy seems to be one of strength. The preterist Jesus is victorus HE IS king HE reigns. HIS kingdom is growing and alive with HIS power. The dispy Jesus failed, HE failed to bring Israel into the kingdom. His kingdom is weak waiting to be raptured out of this awlfull place, leaving the view that HIS creation failed. The dispy view has man in control of GODS plan ...Dispy view has men looking and waiting for a man built temple to offer sacrifices in again in direct conflect of HIS word.

The view of Christ matters it makes a great deal of difference escatology speaking. Is HE weak or victorous?

I am thankfull to see HIM in HIS glory. HE is KING HE reigns HE is victorus.

Most of my life was spent in dispensationalism. How wonderfull to KNOW how great my king is.

These are my views so please dont judge others via my thoughts.

Dispensationalism promotes despair in the believer's soul. It teaches this world is miserable and inescapable. How terrible of anyone to judge God's creation in such a way! Because of thie defeatist teaching, dispensationalism has a tremenduous negative effect on the Church, making it socially impotent in my opinion. I can in good faith, and accurately say that dispensationalism is responsible for most social problems facing the American culture today...

Well Perc the DFs were not alone when Prohibition was enacted.


Great stuff Reba.

Hitch

Dispensationalism promotes despair in the believer's soul. It teaches this world is miserable and inescapable. How terrible of anyone to judge God's creation in such a way! Because of thie defeatist teaching, dispensationalism has a tremenduous negative effect on the Church, making it socially impotent in my opinion. I can in good faith, and accurately say that dispensationalism is responsible for most social problems facing the American culture today...

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So was it terrible of John to say?:

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. I John 2:15-17

We are in the world, but not of the world.

Both preterism and dispensationalism are one-dimensional eschatologies which focus almost entirely on the question of prophecy fulfillment or non-fulfillment. Eschatology is more than this, however. It is concerned with the completion of all things: how God has perfected, is perfecting, and will perfect salvation and redemption on the personal, corporate, and cosmic levels.

Dispensationalism is inadequate in addressing the question because it fails to take into consideration the absolute decisiveness of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on all of history and all of creation. To the dispensationalist, history is moving toward a violent, tragic end and creation is on a collision course with total destruction. Jesus' death and resurrection serves only, at best, to rescue believers from the inevitable catastrophe that history and creation are heading toward.

Preterism is inadequate in addressing the question because it does not grasp the ongoing effect of Jesus' death and resurrection. In varying degrees, most preterists acknowledge that Jesus' death and resurrection was decisive for all of history and creation, but there is a certain incoherence (among both partial and full preterists) concerning the ultimate outcome of history and the ultimate renewal of creation.

A wholistic understanding of the eschatological hope acknowledges both the decisive nature of Jesus' death and resurrection and the ultimate redemptive and salvific effect of that decisive event on all of history and creation. As Jesus' death and resurrection effects redemption for the whole person, so it also effects redemption for the whole Church, which embodies the hope of the whole creation, which will at last be redeemed and restored to its original, good purpose of reflecting the glory of God.

It is Jesus' death and resurrection that is the decisive event of history. Any eschatology which looks for another event yet more decisive than this (whether that event be in the future or the past) misses the point entirely. Jesus Christ will ultimately come again to reign over a creation fully redeemed and restored. That is the hope presently embodied by the Church. It is a hope rooted not in an unfulfilled prophecy, but in the promise God has already fulfilled within history by raising Jesus Christ from the dead.

Donny_B said:

So was it terrible of John to say?:

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. I John 2:15-17

We are in the world, but not of the world.

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What does this have to do with what I just said? John was not writing about the created nature around us, rather about the sin of the world. Your comment further illustrates how far one's mind can be removed from the parousia of Christ by dispensationalist teaching.

If you remove all humans from planet Earth and move them to Mars, is there still sin on Earth?

So was it terrible of John to say?:

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. I John 2:15-17

We are in the world, but not of the world.


LOL It was a good thing for John to say. Your quote of his fine insights has no connection to the discussion. But then DF isnt know for making reasonalbe connections, and you have well demonstrated that.

Hitch

Sorry Perc I didnt see that youhad responded. Interesting pattern though. Like asking for quotes from Jesus...

What I find rather sad about preterism is their view that Satan is bound and not influencing the world. That this is the best it will be - now that is fantasyland!
I wonder if there is a single preterist among the persecuted church....



LOL

Well sad one find me one preterist who says satan has
no influence in the world.

Come on hurry up.



BTW Scofield gives the renewed sacrfices the same power and status they had before the cross. Look it up page 890.

Scofield was a dispensationalist of some influence.

Scofield also claimed that the next matter on the prophetic clock ,following the close of the prophets, was to be the realization of the Davidic kingdom. He also foolishly claims that this is the kingdom Jesus spoke of and said was 'at hand'. He also defines it a geo-political.

Did Jesus secretly set up this temporal kingdom,,,kinda like the secret rapture?

Scofield was a dispensationalist of some influence.

I can see from your post that you are as familiar with DF specifics as you are preterism.

Hitch

One more jewel:

and that Israel will come to Christ during the tribulation period

I dont think this heresy should be allowed on achristina forum. Paul is clear

Quoting and interpreting Issy 49:


Isa 49:6-8
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
(KJV)


2 Cor 6:2
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
(KJV)


You should keep your antisemitic 'salvation for jews is to comel ater' drivel out of public view. It is contrary to apostolic revelation.

FreeinChrist said:

Wow - what a bad misreprentation of dispensationalism!

Dispensationalism simplies sees the earth and mankind as an economy (household) run by God. While salvation has always been by grace through faith, God's requirements for His servants went through some changes. Did God require circumcism for Noah? ​

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In our present dispensation, we neither need physical circumcism, or animal sacrifices, nor do dispensationists believe they will be required by God again.

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Dispensationalist believe this to be scrptural prophecy if not required of GOD why would ya think it is scriptural

What we believe is that God is not yet done dealing with Israel, and that Israel will come to Christ during the tribulation period.

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Is this the salvation of the Blood of Jesus the Cross of Thee Lamb of God? Sounds to me to be a salvation of works.

They may start up the sacrificial system, but it will be as meaningless then as it was in 50 A.D.

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What I find rather sad about preterism is their view that Satan is bound and not influencing the world. That this is the best it will be - now that is fantasyland!

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Matt 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
KJV

I wonder if there is a single preterist among the persecuted church....

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The colosseum is full of their blood

John was not writing about the created nature around us, rather about the sin of the world.

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He was writing about both, "the world and the things that are in the world", as did Peter, "the earth and also the works that are therein":

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. II Peter 3:10-13

Preterism is inadequate in addressing the question because it does not grasp the ongoing effect of Jesus' death and resurrection. In varying degrees, most preterists acknowledge that Jesus' death and resurrection was decisive for all of history and creation, but there is a certain incoherence (among both partial and full preterists) concerning the ultimate outcome of history and the ultimate renewal of creation.


Well Pat I think you would be hard pressed to find any PM or preterist doing the violence to M13 on a par with Scofield and Pentecost.

Take care

Hitch

Hitch said:

Well Pat I think you would be hard pressed to find any PM or preterist doing the violence to M13 on a par with Scofield and Pentecost.

Take care

Hitch

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You won't get any argument from me on that one. I get to preach Mark 13 next Sunday. Maybe I should post a transcript of the sermon here and see how the dispy's react.

Donny_B said:

He was writing about both, "the world and the things that are in the world", as did Peter, "the earth and also the works that are therein":

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

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Rather than putting the American/western spin on what you are quoting you should look-up the meaning of "heavens and earth" and "elements" in the Jewish culture/religion. Paul rebuked the Galatians for wanting to be enslaved by the same elements/elemental things (same word used in 1 Pet. - stoicheia - described in Galatians 4 as the Law, or elements of the Law, which literally melted in fire in A.D. 70).

Heavens and earth were also representative of the nation of Israel and the current order of things under the Law. If you read Isaiah 51:16, it would help you understand how Israel in general and Jerusalem in particular were viewed as "heavens and earth" and more or less the center of the world:

"I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are My people'"

Which creation is God talking about in this instance?