Please explain Replacement Theology

Sabian

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I did a search on the topic and read a few sites.
And I find no reason to call my ideas Replacement theology.
So can you please explain what you are talking about.
My questions are WHAT is the idenity of the true YAHUDAH?
Nothing about the church replacing The JEWs.

Please show that what I have said is replacement theology.
 

ILJ

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Shalom all,
Sabian I haven't posted much here lately, but I have a link about replacement theology.It starts out kind of confusing, becasue the author is answering a debate with an Arab Christian.Then he gets into his arguments against replacement theology etc...

http://answeringislam.org/Walid/israel.htm#REPLACEMENTTHEOLOGYHISTORY

I pray it will be helpful to all.
In Him
ILJ
 
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simchat_torah

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I will post something I wrote a while back... well, I say I wrote it, but it was mostly borrowed (lol.. taken rather) from Dr. Michael Brown's book: Our Hands are Stained with Blood

It completely addresses what replacement theology is and it's very well done.

I have spoken with Dr. Brown on several occasions on the topic, and he is a very gifted (intelligent) individual. I think the following should help you quite a bit Sabian.

shalom,
yafet.
 
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simchat_torah

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What is Replacement theology in the eyes of a Jewish Believer? I have posted, in the past, my ideas (and traditional “Jewish Believer’s” take) on various aspects of replacement theology. But now I sit down to actually sum all of it’s teachings up in a nice neat package. (*** How strange it seems to me that Christians were not claiming to be Jews during the Holocaust... Just a thought)

; )

Part one....

Has G-d forsaken His people? This would be the first logical step in determining if a new people have now replaced Yisra’el. First let us look at Heb. 6:13 & 17.

“6:13 For when Elohim made a promise to Avraham, since he could swear by none greater, he swore by himself . 6:17 Wherein Elohim, being determined to show more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed with an oath”

Here we can see that His promise was eternal. He could find no greater way to seal His covenant, thus He swore by Himself. To break this….. well, you can imagine the theological magnitude of this….

But what if Yisra’el borke the covenant?

Jeremiah. 46:28 Don't be afraid you, O Ya`akov my servant, says YHWH; for I am with you: for I will make a full end of all the nations where I have driven you; but I will not make a full end of you, but I will correct you in measure, and will in no way leave you unpunished.

G-d will never make an end to Yisra’el. He may punish them, but never fully destroy Yisra’el.

Jeremiah . 31:35 Thus says YHWH, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar; YHWH of hosts is his name: 31:36 If these ordinances depart from before me, says YHWH, then the seed of Yisra'el also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. 31:37 Thus says YHWH: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the eretz searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Yisra'el for all that they have done, says YHWH.

Here we can see that as long as there is a sun, moon, stars, Earth, and sea there will be a distinct people Yisra’el- no matter what they do.

In ancient days, covenants were made in a special way. Sacrificial animals were cut in two and their severed bodies placed in two lines. Both parties entered into the covenant would then walk between the carcasses. By doing so they were symbolically saying, “If I break this binding agreement, if I fail to uphold my side of the pact, then let me suffer the same fate that these animals have suffered.” But something was different in Genesis 15. Only G-d passed through the pieces! This was a one-way deal.

Gen. 15:17 It came to pass that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold, a smoking furnace, and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 15:18 In that day YHWH made a covenant with Avram, saying, "To your seed have I given this land, from the river of Mitzrayim to the great river, the river Perat: 15:19 the Kinim, the Kenizzi, the Kadmoni, 15:20 the Hitti, the Perizzi, the Refa'im, 15:21 the Amori, the Kana`anim, the Girgashi, and the Yevusi."

And
Romans . 11:28 As concerning the good message, some are enemies because of you: but as concerning the chosen people, they are beloved for the fathers ' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of Elohim are irrevocable.

Then some ask, “Why are the Jews living outside the ‘new’ covenant if they are the covenant people?” Shaul had a simple answer to this:

Rom. 9:6-8
“Is it not as though G-d’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Yisra’el are Yisra’el. Nor because hey are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children…. In other words, it is not the natural children who are G-d’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Natural children refers to Yisra’el as a whole. G-d’s children refers to the believing remnant within natural Yisra’el.

We can see a similar parallel within Christianity. There are those who have been born into the ch-rch, and then there are those who are spiritually the ch-rch. These are those who have faith outside of simply being a part of Christianity only because that is what they were raised in. (this is only an example to show Christians what I mean)

On no definite occasion does the Brit Chadasha ever call the ch-rch Yisra’el. In fact, out of the 77 times the words “Yisra’el” and “Israellite” occur in the Brit Chadasha, there are only two verses in which Yisra’el couild possibly refer to the ch-rch as a whole: Gal. 6:16, where Shaul speaks of the “Yisra’el of G-d” and Rev. 7:4, where Yochanan speaks of the 144,000 seald from the twelve tribes of Yisra’el. This is saying something! Seventy-five “definites” and only two “maybes”. I wouldn’t want to side with the “maybes”!

Actually the terms “true Yisra’el” or “spiritual Yisra’el” never occur in the Bible, and it might be helpful to completely avoid using them.

As for the verses open to dispute, in Galations 6:16 the KJV, the NKJV, and the NASB all imply the same thing: “The Yisra’el of G-d” does not refer to the whole ch-rch. It refers to believing Jews. The same can be said for the description of the 144,000 sealed in Rev. 7:4. It most likely describes the harvest of the Jews worldwide. Elsewhere in the Book of Rev. “Yisra’el” means “Yisra’el” (Rev. 2:14) and “the twelve tribes” mean the “twelve tribes of Yisra’el”, as distinguished from the “twelve apostles” (Rev. 21:12-14).

Now let’s examine Rom. 2:28-29
“A man is not a Jew if he is ONLY one outwardly, nor is circumcison MERELY outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such is a man’s praise not from men, but from G-d.

Here he is directing his argument to Jews, as we can see from the context provided in Rom. 2:17-29. Within that context he is defining who the “real” Jew is- spiritually speaking.

In the greek Brit Chadasha, the word Jew occurs over 190 times. More than 190 times it definitely means a Jew nationally and ethnically. Only 2 times could it possibly mean something else. Those two times are: Rev. 2:9 & 3:9 where the reference is mae to “those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of HaSatan.”

I’m afraid my interpretation of the above verses will offend many, so I will leave it up to your interpretation.

But if someone understood Romans 2:2-20 to say that believing Gentiles were spiritual Jews (it is easy from the text to see ‘why’ many Christians believe this about themselves.) that would not change this important fact: Shaul never said that natural Jews were no longer Jews. He only said that the natural Jews were not Jews in this Special, Fuller sense. Just keep reading his letter! After making his point in Rom. 2:28-29 (remember, it is one of the few times in the entire Brit Chadasha that the word Jew is used like this), he goes back to referring to ALL Jews in the normal sense.

If you have any doubt read the next verse!

“What advantage is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? MUCH in EVERY WAY!….” (Rom. 3:1-2)

In other words, since being a Jew outwardly and physically doesn’t guarantee a right relationship with G-d, what’s the advantage in being a Jew, a physically, circumcised, ethnic Jew? Much, in every way, because G-d entrusted His Word to His physical, natural people-the Jews! It really is quite simple. If Shaul was teaching that natural Jews were no longer Jews and that believing Gentiles are not the real Jews, what in the world did he mean in Romans 3:9?

“We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.”

If Jews are not Jews and Gentiles are not Gentiles, what was Shaul trying to to say in Romans 3:29?

“Is G-d the G-d of the Jews only? Is He not the G-d of the Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too.”

And what then would be the meaning of Rom. 15:27 if believing gentiles are now Jews?

“… For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.”

Clearly gentile means gentile and Jew means Jew.
It is one thing to argue that once or twice Shaul used the words “Yisra’el” and “Jew” in a special sense, referring to the whle sh-rch as the “Yisra’el of G-d”, and all believers as “Jews”. (I personally disagree with this, but I certainly wouldn’t call this position dangerous) But it is another thing entirely to turn around and ignore the remaining 268 Brit Chadasha references to “yisra’el” and “jew” and claim that Yisra’el is no longer Yisra’el and Jews are no longer Jews! That most certainly is dangerous.

It is one thing to say, “Shaul used the word ‘circumcision’ in a special sense (Phil. 3:3) to refer to all believers.” It is quite another thing to say, “Those who are physically circumcised on the eigth day are no longer counted as Jews”! Even the book of Dueteronomy recognized two circumcisions; the circumcision of the heart and the physical body.

As basic as this is, later ch-rch interpreters went way beyond the meaning of the Word. First they say, “You see, it is not all who are descended from Yisra’el who are Yisra’el. It is the true believers who are Yisra’el, and we are the true believers. We are Yisra’el! It’s not just believing Jews who are Yisra’el. Everyone who simply believes is Yisra’el too!”

What is so terrible about saying this? Maybe noting so far, but the next step was simply disastrous: “If the ch-rch is spiritual Yisra’el, the new Yisra’el, then there is no need for NATURAL Yisra’el, the OLD Yisra’el anymore. They are no longer the covenant people, we are.”

Allow me to quote just one of THOUSANDS throughout history who have exemplified this attitude:

“All the blessings given to Yisra’el are now ours… forever. As for you Jews, to hell with our cursed race!” (A papal ambassador to Poland during the Holocaust)

But the ch-rch has not cursed Yisra’el. The ch-rch has cursed herself! Shaul’s exhortation must be heard again:

“Do not be arrogant, but be afraid…. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, borthers, so that you may not be conceited.” Rom. 11:20, 25

Look at the strong words Shaul uses: arrogant, ignorant, conceited. What a critically important subject for the ch-rch to understand! Ignorance of G-d’s purposes for Yisra’el breeds conceit. And a conceited ch-rch is a ch-rch resisted by the L-rd, for “G-d opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” James 4:6

Unfortunately, many in the body today still claim that it is the ch-rch alon who is the true Yisra’el. One well known author has written at length and with great passion saying, “Wake up Ch-rch! You alone are Yisra’el!”

Why don’t we just accept the obvious meaning of the text? Why don’t we just give up all our interpretive gymnastics?

G-d is looking for believers, not acrobats.

Shalom,

Japheth

P.S. Much of the above is borrowed from Michael Brown’s book “Our Hands Are Stained With Blood” chapter 13. I highly recommend this book, but beware, tears will flow as you read the first few chapters. Blessings to all….
 
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Maximus

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Sabian -

There is no such thing as "Replacement Theology." That term is the invention of Dispensationalists to discredit the historic belief of Christians that the Church is the true Israel of God.

I am not allowed to debate here. If you are interested in more than one point of view, you might want to post your question in IDD or over on the Eastern Orthodox forum.
 
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KelsayDL

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It is a doctrine developed by the Church Fathers stating that the (Gentile) Church has replaced (Jewish) Israel as the covenant people of God.

This doctrine asserts although the Jewish people were the covenant people of God as taught in the Tanakh, when they rejected Yeshua as Messiah, they forfeited their status as Adonai’s chosen people. Having rejected the Jewish nation, they surmised Adonai had established the Church to be His new bride, chosen to take forth His message of salvation to the nations. Therefore, the Church is the new Israel.

In their minds the Mosaic Law was given because of the hardness of heart of the Jews and is therefore no longer useful. It has been abrogated and superceded by the Brit Chadasha writings. Furthermore, this doctrine asserts that all of the blessings designated for the nation of Israel in the Tanakh were transferred to the Church, while all of the curses abide upon the Jews forever.

Simply laughable.
 
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Sabian

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Shalom:simchat_torah


(((Actually the terms “true Yisra’el” or “spiritual Yisra’el” never occur in the Bible, and it might be helpful to completely avoid using them. )))

I understand that state meant but :



We are told to that we are to build up a spiritual house,
and to be living stones. IsraEL is part of this.
Zec 8:9 Thus says YHWH of Armies: "Let your hands be strong, you who hear in these days these words from the mouth of the prophets who were in the day that the foundation of the house of YHWH of Armies was laid, even the temple, that it might be built.

Zec 8:10 For before those days there was no wages for man, nor any wages for an animal; neither was there any shalom to him who went out or came in, because of the adversary. For I set all men everyone against his neighbor.

Zec 8:11 But now I will not be to the remnant of this people as in the former days," says YHWH of Armies.

Zec 8:12 "For the seed of shalom and the vine will yield its fruit, and the ground will give its increase, and the heavens will give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to inherit all these things.

Zec 8:13 It shall come to pass that, as you were a curse among the nations, house of YAHudah and house of Ysra'EL, so will I save you, and you shall be a blessing. Don't be afraid. Let your hands be strong."

Zec 8:14 For thus says YHWH of Armies: "As I thought to do evil to you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath," says YHWH of Armies, "and I didn't repent;

Zec 8:15 so again have I thought in these days to do good to Yerushalayim and to the house of YAhudah. Don't be afraid.

Zec 8:16 These are the things that you shall do: speak every man the truth with his neighbor. Execute the judgment of truth and shalom in your gates,

Zec 8:17 and let none of you devise evil in your hearts against his neighbor, and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate," says YHWH.

Zec 8:18 The word of the YHWH of Armies came to me.

Zec 8:19 Thus says YHWH of Armies: "The fasts of the fourth fifth, seventh, and tenth months shall be for the house of YAHudah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts. Therefore love truth and shalom."

1Pe 2:5
You also, as living stones, are built up as a spiritual house, to be a Set Apart priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to ELOHIM through YAHSHUA the Messiah.
1Pe 2:6 Because it is contained in Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Tziyon a chief cornerstone, chosen, and precious: He who believes in HIM will not be disappointed."

1Pe 2:7 For you who believe therefore is the honor, but for those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected, has become the chief cornerstone,"

1Pe 2:8 and, "a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." For they stumble at the WORD, being disobedient, to which also they were appointed.

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a Set Apart nation, a people for ELOHIM's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of HIM who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

1Pe 2:10 who in time past were no people, but now are ELOHIM's people, who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says YHWH, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Yisra'EL and with the house of YAHudah;

Heb 8:9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they didn't continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them," says the Lord.

Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Yisra'el. After those days," says YHWH; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a ELOHIM, and they will be to me a people.

Heb 8:11 They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know YHWH' for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
Mat 15:24 But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Yisra'EL."

Mat 15:25 But she came and worshiped him, saying, MASTER, help me."

Mat 15:26 But he answered, "It is not appropriate to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

Mat 15:27 But she said, "Yes, MASTER, but even the dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

Mat 15:28 Then YAHSHUA answered her, "Woman, great is your faith! Be it done to you even as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that hour.

To me it is not a question of is there a Spiritual House of YisraEL, The question is when do they become Spiritual.

There is a house of YAHudah and there is a house of YisraEL Maybe they really do not become spiritual untill they become the House of YHWH.

One thing I do know is who ever we are we are Taught that to be spiritual minded is life
And shalom

Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and shalom;

Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards ELOHIM; for it is not subject to ELOHIM's law, neither indeed can it be.

Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh can't please ELOHIM

 
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Sabian

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This doctrine asserts although the Jewish people were the covenant people of God as taught in the Tanakh, when they rejected Yeshua as Messiah, they forfeited their status as Adonai’s chosen people. Having rejected the Jewish nation, they surmised Adonai had established the Church to be His new bride, chosen to take forth His message of salvation to the nations. Therefore, the Church is the new Israel.

Not all of YAHudah rejected YAHSHUA so this .statement is bologny.
Many from the tribe of YAHudah were baptised in the name of YAHSHUA.
John the baptist , Baptised a few.

But I will say that did the Jews that rejected YAHSHUA ,would be the YAHUDAH that say they are YAHudah and are not., But it seems that YAHSHUA wanted them forgiven any way because YAHSHUA states FATHER forgive them for they know not what they do. I would say that this also apply to the people claiming to be YAHudah today.
 
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