Is Salvation a choice? If it is, whose choice is it ?

[Aussie52]

If he is the cause for everything in existence, then he is also the cause for mankind's own choices.

Look up "foreknow", "foreknowledge", "foreknown", (and, in fact, the word, "know", in the Old Testament), in the Concordances. Too, consider the attributes of God. For him to foreknow involves his purposeful knowing. One might go so far as to say that he knows BECAUSE he causes. The Biblical use of "foreknowledge" goes beyond the mere modern English "to know".

Thayers Greek Lexicon says, "forethought, prearrangement": 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Topical Lexicon: Definition and Key Idea
"The noun πρόγνωσις (prognōsis) denotes the prior knowledge and purposeful awareness of God that undergirds His sovereign actions in history. More than mere foresight, it is the personal, relational knowing by which God sets His redemptive plan in motion and lovingly fixes His regard upon His people before their existence in time."

Chat GPT-5 mini, concerning Cruden's Concordance:
Summary — Cruden on "Foreknowledge"

• Cruden treats "Foreknowledge" mainly as God's prior, purposeful knowledge that undergirds election and providential action. He cross‑references Foreknowledge with Knowledge, Election, Predestination, Providence, and Counsel, and highlights verses where God’s prior knowledge is tied to his determinate counsel or purposeful decrees.

Exact verse references Cruden lists under "Foreknowledge" (as cross‑referenced to related headings)

• Genesis 18:19
• Exodus 33:17
• Job 10:8–9
• Psalm 147:5
• Isaiah 46:10
• Jeremiah 1:5
• Amos 3:2
• Acts 2:23
• Acts 4:28
• Acts 17:26–27
• Romans 8:29
• Romans 11:2
• 1 Corinthians 8:3–4 (contextual cross refs)
• 1 Peter 1:2
• 2 Peter 3:9 (contextual)
• Revelation 13:8 (the Lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" often cross‑referenced with foreknowledge/election)

Is it possible for a person’s name to be erased from the Book of Life? | GotQuestions.org

Is it possible for a person’s name to be erased from the Book of Life? When is a person’s name written in the Book of Life? Can a name be erased from the Book of Life?

www.gotquestions.org

Is it possible for a person’s name to be erased from the Book of Life? - Answer The Bible

The concept of the Book of Life is found in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. It is first mentioned in Exodus 32:32-33, where Moses asks God to

www.answerthebible.com

Does God Blot Believers Out of the Book of Life (Rev 3:5)? - Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

How does "What....God Knew About Us Before We Were Born" support your view more than mine? Romans 8: "29...whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Romans 9: "11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls..."

You give a Calvinist definition of 'foreknowledge' as the same as foreordination and thus, quote from Calvinist sources to prove your point. Non-Calvinists and Arminians would disagree with you on that. Foreknowledge as used in the NT is simply to know beforehand, the word 'prognosis' comes from the same Greek root and has the same idea of knowing beforehand. This has been proved by many non-Calvinist scholars like C Gordon Olson in his book, 'Beyond Calvinism & Arminianism' and Arminian Robert E Picirilli in his book, 'Grace, Faith, Free Will."

 

[Mark Quayle]

The reason I asked the question, 'is God the cause of sin', is because Mark Qualyle stated, 'God is the cause, the reason for everything'. I find that view very deterministic.

Sin is in a class of its own. If it is a made thing, than yes, God made it, per John 1:3. But it is antithetical to good and indeed to morality, therefore, the most we can say about it, if indeed it exists in the common sense, is that God caused that there be sin. And that is logically indisputable—if God is God, the first cause. God made the principle by which it operates, yes, indeed. If there was no God, there would be no sin, and no sorrow, and no anything. That there is sin, is for God's purposes, and then it will be done away with.

He planned it and brought it about, by means. It did not come by accident nor by chance, nor apart from God's purposes.

Is sin a thing?

 

[Mark Quayle]

You give a Calvinist definition of 'foreknowledge' as the same as foreordination and thus, quote from Calvinist sources to prove your point. Non-Calvinists and Arminians would disagree with you on that. Foreknowledge as used in the NT is simply to know beforehand, the word 'prognosis' comes from the same Greek root and has the same idea of knowing beforehand. This has been proved by many non-Calvinist scholars like C Gordon Olson in his book, 'Beyond Calvinism & Arminianism' and Arminian Robert E Picirilli in his book, 'Grace, Faith, Free Will."

You might be surprised that even your basic theology is Reformed. No doubt you have departed from Reformed Orthodoxy, in a few ways, but it is not the outlier. I am not quoting Calvinist sources for their Calvinism. I'm quoting old sources, methodical workers, who try not to read their theology into their exegesis, unlike most of us.

I recently answered someone about their consternation that the newer translations are abandoning the old KJV rendering with something new that (to their thinking) undermined the confidence of believers in the Scriptures. The truth is, the KJV rendering was faulty and needed to be corrected. It has nothing to do with anyone's particular theology.

Scripture should drive theology and not the other way around. The constant and continual use in Scripture of Know, Knowledge, Foreknowledge etc, as pertains to God, is simply that of purposefulness. It doesn't mean that he can't foresee, but that what he does is based on his purposes and not on mere foresight.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Sory Mark Qualyle, I got the wrong poster, it was truthuprootsevil, not you that wrote, 'God is the cause, the reason for everything'.

No problem. I would say he is the first cause, but I can misspeak, and often do.

 

[Aussie52]

You might be surprised that even your basic theology is Reformed. No doubt you have departed from Reformed Orthodoxy, in a few ways, but it is not the outlier. I am not quoting Calvinist sources for their Calvinism. I'm quoting old sources, methodical workers, who try not to read their theology into their exegesis, unlike most of us.

I recently answered someone about their consternation that the newer translations are abandoning the old KJV rendering with something new that (to their thinking) undermined the confidence of believers in the Scriptures. The truth is, the KJV rendering was faulty and needed to be corrected. It has nothing to do with anyone's particular theology.

Scripture should drive theology and not the other way around. The constant and continual use in Scripture of Know, Knowledge, Foreknowledge etc, as pertains to God, is simply that of purposefulness. It doesn't mean that he can't foresee, but that what he does is based on his purposes and not on mere foresight.

Your arguments are based on a certain and unbiblical definition of God's sovereignty, and that is, God is the cause of everything. He is the only 'will'. This is pagan determinism. The logical outcome, as you state, God purposed sin. That my friend is heresy. If God ordained evil, that makes Him evil.
You say, 'Scripture should drive theology', but where in Scripture does it say God ordained sin? No, it comes from your deterministic view of God's sovereignty, that there are no other moral choices in the universe, but God's.
But man does have a 'free will', he does make moral choices all the while, God is in control. That, the Bible clearly teaches.

'There is no threat to, or restriction of, God's sovereign freedom, who runs everything as He pleases, by having another personal and free being in the universe. God's plan or decree is that such a free and responsible being exist and make free choices, that therefore all those choices (which really are contingent) are incorporated into His plan (as He certainly foresees what those choices will be). God is able to govern the truly free exercise of men's wills in such a way that all goes according to His plan. From,' Grace Faith Free Will. Robert E Picirilli .

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your arguments are based on a certain and unbiblical definition of God's sovereignty, and that is, God is the cause of everything. He is the only 'will'. This is pagan determinism.

It is what God himself has said—not me. You want a god who compromises on his plans, who depends on us to make his desires come true. That isn't the God of the Bible. I don't begin to say he is the only will. But if you want to compare your will to his, or your sentience to his? So far here, the only attempt to demonstrate that God depends on what we do to accomplish what he planned, is to claim that some unexplained passage or verse says so, without exegesis, without warrant, and by somehow thinking that only if we add the word, "free", in front of "will", that somehow that makes a self-deterministic framework valid. It is not as though I have been saying we don't choose. But to you, somehow, we must, apparently, in some way merit God's grace.

Nothing pagan about determinism. It is not fate, which is cold and mechanistic. This is the work of God himself accomplishing precisely what he set out to do from the beginning. Do you suggest that God is, or his purposes are, subject to the vagaries of fate?

The logical outcome, as you state, God purposed sin. That my friend is heresy.

That, my friend, is another strawman. You claim that I am saying that God purposed sin, and that's the end of talking about it?? No, I am saying he purposed that there be sin, the use of which is for his purposes. Heresy is to claim that sin happened by accident—or that ANYTHING happened by accident. How do you propose that sin came about, if not by purpose of God? Our mentality and words don't work well to describe it, because we suppose WE know what sin is and how it works. We don't even know what EXISTENCE is, except for our foolish notions!

This is analogous to Determinism of a sort: (I don't like the tone brought forth by the term, but clinical definition is correct—God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass.) The reason I don't like the term is because in the mind of its opponents, it means that God determined the condemnation of the reprobate (as if they did not choose to remain at enmity with him), and that that is the end of meaning of determinism. But it is not. He has created some for that end, for the purpose of producing the very particular and perfectly made members of the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ. This is no haphazard conglomeration.

If God ordained evil, that makes Him evil.

False. I do challenge you to show that he did not ordain THAT THERE BE evil, and that, in every particular—either by use of Scripture or Reason or both.

While you are at it, define Free Will succinctly and precisely, and we can wipe that out of the way too. I all you mean is that our choices are real, and they are really our choices, then I agree.

You say, 'Scripture should drive theology', but where in Scripture does it say God ordained sin? No, it comes from your deterministic view of God's sovereignty, that there are no other moral choices in the universe, but God's.
But man does have a 'free will', he does make moral choices all the while, God is in control. That, the Bible clearly teaches.

'There is no threat to, or restriction of, God's sovereign freedom, who runs everything as He pleases, by having another personal and free being in the universe. God's plan or decree is that such a free and responsible being exist and make free choices, that therefore all those choices (which really are contingent) are incorporated into His plan (as He certainly foresees what those choices will be). God is able to govern the truly free exercise of men's wills in such a way that all goes according to His plan. From,' Grace Faith Free Will. Robert E Picirilli .

Did God plan redemption from the foundation of the world, or did he come up with it on the spur of the moment? (see Acts 2:23) Is there any way, but by Redemption, for God's people to be with him in a way that even the angels are not? Ask yourself, as all reasonable men do, why did he even bother to drag us through all this mess—why not just speak Rev 21 into being?

There is no plan B. We are talking about omniscient, omnipotent First Cause, apart from whom there is nothing. Even your decisions are established by him; if not for him, your choices would not be real. Sin is a tool. An egregious tool, a rending of very reality, was it not for the infinite Power of God, cosmic treason against the very Creator, but against omnipotence, it has no power.

So what do you mean by free? Only that our choices are real? They are real only because God created you and established them.


And we haven't even gotten, here, into the logical self-contradiction of actually free (libertarian, self-deterministic) choosers, and of anything being caused by mere chance. There can logically be only one First Cause, and He is by definition not subject to anything, not to our wills and not to any principle besides Himself.

 

[Aussie52]

It is what God himself has said—not me. You want a god who compromises on his plans, who depends on us to make his desires come true. That isn't the God of the Bible. I don't begin to say he is the only will. But if you want to compare your will to his, or your sentience to his? So far here, the only attempt to demonstrate that God depends on what we do to accomplish what he planned, is to claim that some unexplained passage or verse says so, without exegesis, without warrant, and by somehow thinking that only if we add the word, "free", in front of "will", that somehow that makes a self-deterministic framework valid. It is not as though I have been saying we don't choose. But to you, somehow, we must, apparently, in some way merit God's grace.

Nothing pagan about determinism. It is not fate, which is cold and mechanistic. This is the work of God himself accomplishing precisely what he set out to do from the beginning. Do you suggest that God is, or his purposes are, subject to the vagaries of fate?

That, my friend, is another strawman. You claim that I am saying that God purposed sin, and that's the end of talking about it?? No, I am saying he purposed that there be sin, the use of which is for his purposes. Heresy is to claim that sin happened by accident—or that ANYTHING happened by accident. How do you propose that sin came about, if not by purpose of God? Our mentality and words don't work well to describe it, because we suppose WE know what sin is and how it works. We don't even know what EXISTENCE is, except for our foolish notions!

This is analogous to Determinism of a sort: (I don't like the tone brought forth by the term, but clinical definition is correct—God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass.) The reason I don't like the term is because in the mind of its opponents, it means that God determined the condemnation of the reprobate (as if they did not choose to remain at enmity with him), and that that is the end of meaning of determinism. But it is not. He has created some for that end, for the purpose of producing the very particular and perfectly made members of the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ. This is no haphazard conglomeration.

False. I do challenge you to show that he did not ordain THAT THERE BE evil, and that, in every particular—either by use of Scripture or Reason or both.

While you are at it, define Free Will succinctly and precisely, and we can wipe that out of the way too. I all you mean is that our choices are real, and they are really our choices, then I agree.

Did God plan redemption from the foundation of the world, or did he come up with it on the spur of the moment? (see Acts 2:23) Is there any way, but by Redemption, for God's people to be with him in a way that even the angels are not? Ask yourself, as all reasonable men do, why did he even bother to drag us through all this mess—why not just speak Rev 21 into being?

There is no plan B. We are talking about omniscient, omnipotent First Cause, apart from whom there is nothing. Even your decisions are established by him; if not for him, your choices would not be real. Sin is a tool. An egregious tool, a rending of very reality, was it not for the infinite Power of God, cosmic treason against the very Creator, but against omnipotence, it has no power.

So what do you mean by free? Only that our choices are real? They are real only because God created you and established them.


And we haven't even gotten, here, into the logical self-contradiction of actually free (libertarian, self-deterministic) choosers, and of anything being caused by mere chance. There can logically be only one First Cause, and He is by definition not subject to anything, not to our wills and not to any principle besides Himself.

Well, all that I can say in the light of your post is that I sincerely, from my heart, feel a sorrow for you. And I say, not in any malice, that I believe you are seriously mistaken and deceived by your Calvinism. I only hope that one day God will open your eyes to see the error of your 'doctrines of grace' as He also did for me, by opening my eyes to the errors of Pentecostalism.
God Bless.

 

[bling]

I have yet to disagree with any of this, except for the illogical notion implied, that if the faith is not what the Greek says is gift, that it therefore is not gift. That is where you go wrong. Again, if salvation is not of ourselves, and the grace by which we are saved is gift, then the faith through which we are saved is also gift and not of ourselves —not by grammatical matchup, but by logical order of the sentence.

The "gift" in Eph. 2:8 is salvation and I think we can agree that salvation is a gift. Eph. 2:8 is not saying "faith" is not also a gift, but it is saying" "By faith the person obtains the gift of salvation and faith is not a work.
We might also agree God provides mature adults with the gift of "faith", but I would call it a general faith/trust which the individual can direct toward a golden statue (idol) or could direct it toward God of the individuals own free will.

 

[bling]

John 6:44 "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me."

Is the invitation to the banquet an excellent "draw" for individuals?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well, all that I can say in the light of your post is that I sincerely, from my heart, feel a sorrow for you. And I say, not in any malice, that I believe you are seriously mistaken and deceived by your Calvinism. I only hope that one day God will open your eyes to see the error of your 'doctrines of grace' as He also did for me, by opening my eyes to the errors of Pentecostalism.
God Bless.

I think this is twice, I've heard you say, "...all I can say is...". I expect it is just a figure of speech, or at least, an introductory into a less than engaging statement, by which you hope to end the debate. It is a short-cut to answering what I'm saying.

But, if I am deceived, it is not by my Calvinism. I don't hail from a Calvinistic (nor Reformed) background, but from a Fundamentalist Dispensationalist almost Wesleyan Methodism. Very well versed from a child in KJV Bible, though not 'KJV-only'. It is that Bible upbringing, and the incongruities and contradictions between their theology and the Bible —well, that and the axiomatic statements to which they hold, such as, "God has a wonderful plan for your life/(marriage/etc)", and a lot of introspection, prayer, scripture and despair, that led me to believe what I do. I did not even know what I came to believe in Scripture resembled Calvinism/Reformed Theology, until I read things they had written. To this day, I do not consider myself Reformed or Calvinist. It is not my theology, though I try to represent it when it is criticized or mis-represented.

To my view, you are deceived by your self-deterministic worldview. The universe does not revolve around you and your miraculous ability to make choices. You are a relatively small link in the chains (or probably more accurately, the lattice,) of causation. You do what you do, and are what you are, by God's purposes. And he does it by use of your will, (among other things—by use of all things, actually). You are not "a player on his level".

That 'One must obey, or be damned', is built into the conscience, and I don't despise it. In fact, curiously, 1 Jn 1:9, after John says that if we say we have no sin we are making God out to be a liar, and that if we say we have no sin we are liars, it says, literally, that if we are confessing our sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins, and to have cleansed us from all unrighteousness. —That is, implied that if we are not confessing our sins he has not forgiven us. The forgiveness is necessarily contingent on the confession, yet, it already happened. I did not get that from Calvinism. I got that from my Greek-expert father.

I'm curious about your Pentecostalism from which you seem to say held to the 'doctrines of Grace'. That is not their usual fare.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The "gift" in Eph. 2:8 is salvation and I think we can agree that salvation is a gift. Eph. 2:8 is not saying "faith" is not also a gift, but it is saying" "By faith the person obtains the gift of salvation and faith is not a work.
We might also agree God provides mature adults with the gift of "faith", but I would call it a general faith/trust which the individual can direct toward a golden statue (idol) or could direct it toward God of the individuals own free will.

No. The faith is not the same as trust in a chair, or trust in the worthiness of the flavor and satisfaction of a meal or other need met. It is necessarily implied, Biblically, of submission to our Creator. It is not US taking the initiative nor accomplishing anything by worthy act of will. (In fact, by definition of "Creator" and "creature", if we decide to do something, it is because God has established it so.) Salvific faith is God's doing in us—not of human origin. We don't have any of the requirements of ourselves, to make faith valid to the project being undertaken.

And, once again, this does not teach that we do not will to be saved, nor that we don't of our own decision, of our will, take hold of Christ. We do, but only after he has changed our hearts. We would not, otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We love because HE first loved us..

But, love can't be forced. It has to be a willing choice.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Joshua 24:14 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Any thoughts ?

Yes, it is a choice that God makes all people responsible to make. He offers salvation to all people (Matthew 22:1-13, Titus 2:11) and requires all people to choose to accept or reject His offer.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Joshua 24:14 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Jesus doesn't force Himself upon anyone. He gives everyone the choice to open the door of their hearts to Him or not.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We've been through this before, many times, now, and every time, you ignore what you wish, deny what you wish, and cannot prove me wrong: The grammar indeed does say the gift is the grace.

The gift is salvation which comes by grace through faith. This lines up with Romans 6:23 which says that the gift of God is eternal life.

But, logically, then, if the gift (the grace), is through faith, then the faith is also gift.

There's no logic in that. Salvation is graciously offered and received through faith.

Titus 2:11 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Matthew 22:1-13 also shows that salvation is offered to people and must be either accepted or rejected.

The faith does not "access" the gift, as you wish to paint the picture. I challenge you to show me the worthiness of your faith that springs from yourself, and is not generated by God himself within you.

Faith involves humbling yourself like the tax collector in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14). I appreciate your concern about people taking credit for saving themselves and boasting about it, but humbling yourself is the opposite of boasting. Jesus said man has to humble himself and doesn't say that God does it for him. God expects us to humble ourselves in response to hearing the gospel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And, once again, this does not teach that we do not will to be saved, nor that we don't of our own decision, of our will, take hold of Christ. We do, but only after he has changed our hearts. We would not, otherwise.

What you're saying is here is very misleading and contradictory. If there is only one "decision" that we can make because of God changing our hearts, as you believe, then that is not truly a decision that we are making of our will, but rather a decision that God makes of His will.

 

[Chaplain Jim]

Any thoughts ?

John 6:44 "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me."

 

[bling]

John 6:44 "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me."

Is the invitation to the banquet an excellent "draw" for individuals?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

John 6:44 "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me."

Reconcile your understanding of that with this...

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your arguments are based on a certain and unbiblical definition of God's sovereignty, and that is, God is the cause of everything. He is the only 'will'. This is pagan determinism. The logical outcome, as you state, God purposed sin. That my friend is heresy. If God ordained evil, that makes Him evil.
You say, 'Scripture should drive theology', but where in Scripture does it say God ordained sin? No, it comes from your deterministic view of God's sovereignty, that there are no other moral choices in the universe, but God's.
But man does have a 'free will', he does make moral choices all the while, God is in control. That, the Bible clearly teaches.

'There is no threat to, or restriction of, God's sovereign freedom, who runs everything as He pleases, by having another personal and free being in the universe. God's plan or decree is that such a free and responsible being exist and make free choices, that therefore all those choices (which really are contingent) are incorporated into His plan (as He certainly foresees what those choices will be). God is able to govern the truly free exercise of men's wills in such a way that all goes according to His plan. From,' Grace Faith Free Will. Robert E Picirilli .

Agree. If God ordained sin/evil, then why did Jesus have to die for our sins? There would be no punishment for sin if God ordained it.

 

[Lost Witness]

Reconcile your understanding of that with this...

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

I kinda see it like..
Christ calls everyone to himself but only those that father God has chosen will receive him and go into his rest.