The last trump

[Douggg]

So where does the text say the “last day” is a long period of time rather than an actual day?

The fact there is the resurrection/rapture event before the great tribulation, and then after the great tribulation the resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs (the first resurrection in the text of the millennium), and the last resurrection for the Great White Throne judgment - proves that the last day is not referring to a 24 hour day.

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Last day is a general reference to the period of the end times to the end of this present earth.

Do you believe that we are living in the end times ?

 

[Douggg]

As you should remember from our past discussions I do not subscribe to the position that Revelation is in complete chronological order.

I agree that reading straight through Revelation is not chronological.

Making time-line charts provides a visual approach to showing the chronological relationship of events.

On what is the opinion that 15:52 is not the last trumpet of Revelation based? What last trump in scripture is it? Please back up your answer with scripture.

The trumpets in Revelation are not called "trumps" nor "trump" anywhere in the text of Revelation. Go to the kjv online site and do a word search for "trump".

By what hermeneutic method do you divide these passages into different comings of the Lord? Where in scripture can we find it stated that Christ will return multiple times after He ascended up to heaven?

There is only one passage concerning Jesus's return that He stands on the mount of Olives, from where He left this earth. Zechariah 14:4

Jesus's coming for the resurrection/rapture event, Jesus does not descend down to stand upon the earth, but meet the resurrected/raptured in Christ in the air.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

John 6:39 – And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 – For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 – No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54 – The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24 – Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him, the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

Can you tell me why Jesus said that all believers and unbelievers would be raised on the last day and not before?

Because that is what Jesus said is going to happen. Not sure how else to respond to this.

Jesus also describes a single event where all the dead, both believers and unbeliever are raised in John 5:28–29. He says, “the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Likewise, Acts 24:15 speaks of “a" resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. "A' being one event.

I am an amillennialist, so I agree with this.

Matthew 13:39–43, describes the same pattern where the harvest is at “the end of the age” and both the wicked and the righteous are dealt with at that time. Likewise in Matthew 25:31–46, when the Son of Man comes in glory all nations are gathered and then separated into the righteous and the wicked. These passages also place resurrection/judgment together at the end rather than separating them into different events.

Exactly.

When we place all these passages together, the picture Jesus and the apostles give is that both believers and unbelievers are raised and judged in the same general event on the last day. That aligns naturally with Jesus’ repeated statement that believers are raised “on the last day.”

Agree.

So, my question is, can you tell me why Jesus said that all believers and unbelievers would be raised on the last day and not before?

Again, because that is what is going to happen. I'm not sure how else to answer this. Can you clarify why you are asking this question?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Daniel 12:2 actually supports what Jesus believed when He said that both believers and unbelievers are raised on the last day. So, one resurrection where some rise to life and others to shame. That fits perfectly with what Jesus says in John 5:28–29.

The real question is your definition of “last day.” Jesus doesn’t describe it as a long period; He speaks of it as a specific day when people are raised and judged (John 12:48; John 6:39).
So where does the text say the “last day” is a long period of time rather than an actual day?

Nowhere, of course. Douggg will twist any scripture to make it fit his doctrine. He has no shame. Jesus said those who believe will be raised on the last day. We know that all believers will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus returns (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23), so it's not possible that the last day is anything but an actual 24 hour day.

 

[1Tonne]

The fact there is the resurrection/rapture event before the great tribulation

Please do not call it a fact as it is far from it. It is a theory that is based on many assumptions. Each assumption backing the other. Also, if you call it a fact when it is not, you are reinforcing it within yourself so that you are unable to see the truth. Simply calling it a "fact" will not change our viewpoint unless you have factual evidence. Which your evidence is heavily based on assumptions, and you loosely use scripture to back it.

The fact there is the resurrection/rapture event before the great tribulation, and then after the great tribulation the resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs (the first resurrection in the text of the millennium), and the last resurrection for the Great White Throne judgment - proves that the last day is not referring to a 24 hour day.

Rev 20:5 says that the Martyrs are the first resurrection, but you choose to not believe these words. You say that the Martyrs are the second resurrection and then at the end there is a 3rd. WOW.

Last day is a general reference to the period of the end times to the end of this present earth.

Jesus stressed 5 times that the "last day" is the "last day" Where does Jesus say that the "Last Day," is not the "last day"?
Also, please show me where Jesus said that the "last day" is different for both believers and unbelievers.
Lastly, please show me where Jesus says that the "last day" is a period of time?
So far you have not answered these.

Again, because that is what is going to happen. I'm not sure how else to answer this. Can you clarify why you are asking this question?

I am asking the question because Douggg is reading verses and then adding a false assumption onto them and then he is trying to teach everyone else these false assumptions. We need to hold the word of God up highly and believe what Jesus said instead of adding to or changing the meaning to fit our preconceived ideas.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 20:5 says that the Martyrs are the first resurrection, but you choose to not believe these words. You say that the Martyrs are the second resurrection and then at the end there is a 3rd. WOW.

The resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints is the first resurrection relative to the millennium.

The second resurrection relative to the millennium will be for the Great White Throne judgement after the millennium is over.

Thus, two resurrections being a thousand years apart, proves the last day cannot mean a 24 hour day.

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again, I ask you for the third time - do you believe that we are living in the end times ?

 

[1Tonne]

The resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints is the first resurrection relative to the millennium.

The second resurrection relative to the millennium will be for the Great White Throne judgement after the millennium is over.

Thus, two resurrections being a thousand years apart, proves the last day cannot mean a 24 hour day.

You’re starting with Revelation 20 and then using it to redefine what Jesus clearly says about ‘the last day.’ That’s backwards.
Jesus repeatedly says He will raise believers on the last day (John 6:39–40, 44, 54), and that all; both righteous and wicked; are raised together (John 5:28–29). That’s straightforward language.


So the question is: do we interpret the clear teaching of Jesus first, or build a framework from Revelation 20 and then force those clear statements to fit it?

Also, Revelation 20:5 explicitly calls the resurrection of the martyrs ‘the first resurrection.’ The text doesn’t say it’s the third or that others happened before it; you’re adding that.


So rather than redefining ‘last day,’ shouldn’t we let the clear passages interpret the more symbolic one?

again, I ask you for the third time - do you believe that we are living in the end times ?

I will answer your question.
Yes, I believe we are in the last days in the general sense (as the New Testament describes). But that’s different from what Jesus calls ‘the last day.’

Now please answer this:
If Jesus says He will raise believers and unbelievers on ‘the last day’ (John 6), where does Scripture say there is an earlier resurrection of believers before that day; without redefining what ‘last day’ means?
NOTE: You have not shown where Jesus says that the "last day" is a long period of time.

 

[Douggg]

You’re starting with Revelation 20 and then using it to redefine what Jesus clearly says about ‘the last day.’ That’s backwards.
Jesus repeatedly says He will raise believers on the last day (John 6:39–40, 44, 54), and that all; both righteous and wicked; are raised together (John 5:28–29). That’s straightforward language.


So the question is: do we interpret the clear teaching of Jesus first, or build a framework from Revelation 20 and then force those clear statements to fit it?

Also, Revelation 20:5 explicitly calls the resurrection of the martyrs ‘the first resurrection.’ The text doesn’t say it’s the third or that others happened before it; you’re adding that.


So rather than redefining ‘last day,’ shouldn’t we let the clear passages interpret the more symbolic one?

I will answer your question.
Yes, I believe we are in the last days in the general sense (as the New Testament describes). But that’s different from what Jesus calls ‘the last day.’

Now please answer this:
If Jesus says He will raise believers and unbelievers on ‘the last day’ (John 6), where does Scripture say there is an earlier resurrection of believers before that day; without redefining what ‘last day’ means?
NOTE: You have not shown where Jesus says that the "last day" is a long period of time.

Time expressions in the bible are not always literal. For example,

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Concerning the time expression "the last day", I have already responded many different times, with proofs, that the expression "the last day" does not mean a 24 hour day.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Last day is a general reference to the period of the end times to the end of this present earth.

No, the last day is a literal 24 hour day that occurs at the end of the last days. How do you interpret "the last days"? A period longer than "the period of the end times to the end of this present earth"?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Time expressions in the bible are not always literal. For example,

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

LOL. It is absolutely hilarious that you think this is the only non-literal time period referenced in the book of Revelation. Why would that be? Why would every other time reference in Revelation be literal except for this one? Explain how that makes any sense.

Concerning the time expression "the last day", I have already responded many different times, with proofs, that the expression "the last day" does not mean a 24 hour day.

Yes, it does mean a 24 hour day. Jesus said believers will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40) and scripture indicates that all believers will be resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).

 

[1Tonne]

Time expressions in the bible are not always literal. For example,

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Concerning the time expression "the last day", I have already responded many different times, with proofs, that the expression "the last day" does not mean a 24 hour day.

Saying that time expressions are sometimes symbolic doesn’t answer the question. The issue isn’t whether time can be symbolic, but whether the phrase ‘the last day’ is ever used in Scripture to mean a long period of time.
In John 6, Jesus repeats multiple times that He will raise believers on the last day, John 12:48 also includes non-believers in the last day resurrection, and in John 5:28–29 He connects the resurrection of all people to the same event. There’s nothing in those passages suggesting a stretched-out period or multiple resurrections.


So, I’ll ask again: where does Scripture actually define ‘the last day’ as a long period rather than a specific day; without importing that idea from elsewhere?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Saying that time expressions are sometimes symbolic doesn’t answer the question. The issue isn’t whether time can be symbolic, but whether the phrase ‘the last day’ is ever used in Scripture to mean a long period of time.

The funny thing about it is that he believes every other time reference in Revelation is literal except for the "one hour" of Revelation 17:12. Yet, somehow, he doesn't think the last day is a literal day. He's very inconsistent.

In John 6, Jesus repeats multiple times that He will raise believers on the last day, John 12:48 also includes non-believers in the last day resurrection, and in John 5:28–29 He connects the resurrection of all people to the same event. There’s nothing in those passages suggesting a stretched-out period or multiple resurrections.

Agree.

 

[Douggg]

So, I’ll ask again: where does Scripture actually define ‘the last day’ as a long period rather than a specific day; without importing that idea from elsewhere?

Scripture does not directly say "the last day" is either a 24 hour day or a long period of time.

Since scripture does not directly say either, it is a matter of examining resurrections that will take place in scripture.

The text of Revelation 20 clearly indicates that there will be resurrections spaced a thousand years apart. So "the last day" is not a 24 hour day, but a long period of time.

 

[1Tonne]

Scripture does not directly say "the last day" is either a 24 hour day or a long period of time.

Since scripture does not directly say either, it is a matter of examining resurrections that will take place in scripture.

The text of Revelation 20 clearly indicates that there will be resurrections spaced a thousand years apart. So "the last day" is not a 24 hour day, but a long period of time.

Jesus repeatedly says that all believers will be raised on ‘the last day’ (John 6:39–40, 44, 54), and that all people, both righteous and wicked, will be raised on the last day (John 5:28–29).
There is no Scripture that explicitly states an earlier resurrection of believers before that day. In the absence of any clear evidence, the simplest and most faithful approach is to take Jesus’ words as they are written without adding our own meaning, to fit a particular system.

If we start adding ideas that the text does not say, we move from Scripture to speculation. Why not let Jesus’ clear statements guide our understanding?

 

[Douggg]

If we start adding ideas that the text does not say, we move from Scripture to speculation. Why not let Jesus’ clear statements guide our understanding?

Scripture does not directly say "the last day" is either a 24 hour day or a long period of time.

Since scripture does not directly say either, it is a matter of examining resurrections that will take place in scripture.

The text of Revelation 20 clearly indicates that there will be resurrections spaced a thousand years apart. So "the last day" is not a 24 hour day, but a long period of time.

 

[eclipsenow]

I just have to say when I saw the title, I immediately thought of Donald attacking Iran - and then realised it was a lower case T.

Anyone else forbidden from discussing the t word at parties?

The first person to mention the t word at my Australian men's Bible study group has to buy the next round at the pub!

As I've stated many times, I believe we've been in the last days for 2000 years and counting. There's no theological reason why the Lord could not have returned say 1800 years ago other than his patience and wanting to see more people saved.

People thought the Lord was about to return because World war 1 was so horrible. But secular historian Dan Carlin calls his long podcast series on World war 1 "blueprint for Armageddon" - with Armageddon itself being World war Two. This is not an eschatological statement, but just one recognising the horror of that war. People have thought it has been the end again and again.

I'm just admitting that sometimes when I hear the latest actions of Donald Trump, and this year entitled narcissism of his brain blurts in the middle of the night on social media, I do wonder if I'm wrong and he's actually the Antichrist!

Well, not really but I had to drop a t word joke in there somehow.

 

[1Tonne]

Scripture does not directly say "the last day" is either a 24 hour day or a long period of time.

Since scripture does not directly say either, it is a matter of examining resurrections that will take place in scripture.

The text of Revelation 20 clearly indicates that there will be resurrections spaced a thousand years apart. So "the last day" is not a 24 hour day, but a long period of time.

You keep saying Scripture doesn’t define ‘the last day,’ but that’s not true, Jesus does.
When Jesus says He will raise believers on ‘the last day’ (John 6:39–40, 44, 54), and then says that all people, both righteous and wicked, are raised together (John 5:28–29), the plain reading is obvious: a single, final day of resurrection and judgment. To say otherwise is to add your own view which the text does not say.
What you’re doing is taking a highly symbolic passage in Revelation 20 and using it to override the simple, clear, repeated words of Jesus. That’s backwards and shows a poor understanding on how to interpret. We should interpret symbolic passages in light of clear teaching, not the other way around.

Also, the word ‘day’ is not complicated. It is a really simple word that everyone understands (maybe not you). There is nothing in Jesus’ statements that suggests He meant a long, stretched-out period with multiple resurrections inserted into it. That idea is not coming from the text, it’s being imposed onto it.

So the issue isn’t that Scripture is unclear. The issue is whether you willing to take Jesus at His word, or whether we’re going to override his words by redefining simple language to fit a system. Where does Jesus, or any clear passage, say there is a resurrection of believers before "the last day." (apart from the Martyrs)

 

[Douggg]

You keep saying Scripture doesn’t define ‘the last day,’

Jesus does not say that the last day is a 24 hour day.

 

[1Tonne]

Jesus does not say that the last day is a 24 hour day.

The question is not whether Jesus used the phrase ‘24 hours,’ to define his statement, but whether there is any indication in the text that ‘the last day’ means anything other than what it naturally means; a single, final day. There isn’t.

You’re asking me to move away from the clear reading of Jesus’ words and accept your person interpretation which is a much more complex idea than is stated. It isn’t stated anywhere clearly in Scripture. It is only assumed. I would be foolish to take on such a teaching.
If someone says to you ‘I will do this on the last day to the golfing tournament,’ the normal meaning is the final day of the tournament, not an extended period with events spread out over a thousand years. (LOL) To change the meaning to suit myself would be very silly.

So again, where does Scripture actually say that ‘the last day’ is a long period rather than a single day?

 

[Douggg]

So again, where does Scripture actually say that ‘the last day’ is a long period rather than a single day?

When does the resurrection of great tribulation martyrs take place relevant to the one thousand years ?

Revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.