From the Levitical priestly order - to the Order of Melchizedek

[BrotherJJ]

Levitical priestly order is established at Aarons ordination:

Lev 8:1-12 God commands Moses; get some anointing oil, VS 6, wash/purify (full mikveh - precursor of NT baptism) Aaron & his sons with water, VS 12, Moses pours the anointing oil on Aaron's head to sanctify = "set him apart" for priestly duties. Marking Aarons ordination & establishment of the Levitical priestly order.

At Aarons priestly ordination: He's required to undergo full mikveh (baptism), then Moses anoints Aaron with oil &d Aaron becomes Cohen Gadol/High Priest, mediator between God & the entire Nation of Israel. The Levitical order is established.

Jesus & the Priestly Pattern

John water baptizes Jesus & from heaven God confirms (Lk 3:22) & anoints Jesus with an unlimited measure of the Holy Spirit. (Jn 3:34)

Right after John baptizes Jesus, He goes into the wilderness (See Azazel Scapegoat Lev 16:8-20) Jesus now begins his earthly/priestly ministry as a mediator between man & God.

Jesus/the Lamb is sacrificed & dies, the earth quaked & the veil of the Temple is torn in 1/2 (Matt 27:51 The Levitical order is retired). Jesus breaks & passes thru the spiritual barrier, guarded by cherubim since man's removal from the garden. The Temple veil had Cherubim embroidered onto it (Ex 26:31). 40 days later in the presence of God, Jesus enters the Heavenly Temple, made without hands, with His own sinless blood, sprinkles it onto the alter, obtaining eternal redemption for every believer (Heb 9:12,12,22,24). The Priestly eternal order of Melchizedek is established, redemption completed, permanent intercession & Jesus sits down at the right hand of the Father.

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (Also see Psalms 110:4)
(NOTE: A priest FOREVER after the order of Melchizedek)

Additional info in John the Baptist:

John the Baptist father, Zacharias, was a Temple Priest (Lk 1:5 & 8). A pure blooded descent of Aaron on both his mothers & fathers side.(1 Chr 24:10). Belonging to the priestly division of Abijah, 8th course rotation to serve 8 days Sabbath to Sabbath (1 Chron 23:1-6, 24:1-19).

Zacharias is in the Temple, at the altar of incense, preforming his Priestly duties. When an angel appears (Lk 1:11). Tells him he will have a son (his wife is to old & barren Lk:7) & that his son (John the Baptist) shall prepare the way for the coming Messiah.

God choose Aaron (when his staff budded Num 17:1-8) to be the 1st Levitical High Priest & God choose John the Baptist, whom God filled/anointed with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb (Lk 1:15). To be the last Levitical High Priest.

Matt 11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
NOTE: Jesus says; John the Baptist was a prophet & MORE)

Luke 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
(NOTE: Luke tells us, Jesus said; John the Baptist was a prophet & MUCH MORE.)

Here the Lord is instructing Aaron His Chosen High Priest:

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
(NOTE: Priests of the Levitical order "were not to drink wine nor strong drink", throughout their generations)

Here an angel of the Lord is giving Zacharias instructions regarding John the Baptist:

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
(NOTE: He "shall drink neither wine nor strong drink".)

Jn 1:29 John announces: Behold the Lamb of God that TAKES AWAY (Temple sacrifices COVERED - only for 1 ys, they did not take away) the sins of the world

A lot happens at Jesus baptism, none of which had anything to do with sin or repentance, He was SINLESS (2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19, 1 Pet 2:22) & had zero to repent from.

Sin imputation:

Lev 16:21 Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
(NOTE: Once per yr on the Day of Atonement (Lev 16:2-24, 23:26-27, Heb 9:7) the High Priest, mediator between God & the people. Would place his hands on an innocent sacrifice, confess the ENTIRE Nations transgressions/sins, imputing/transferring all their sins onto the sacrifice. This (scapegoat Lev 16:8-22) was lead then into the WILDERNESS. The people could see/watch their sins being removed. Where did the Spirit immediately lead Jesus to go after His baptism? The WILDERNESS! (Matt 4:1)

John the Baptist announces, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. John - God's chosen High Priest, laid his hands on Jesus & imputed/transferred (see Lev 16:20-21) all the sins of humankind onto God's chosen LAMB. When Jesus comes up: The Holy Ghost descends in a bodily shape like a dove upon Jesus & a voice came from heaven confirms Jesus is God's Son (Lk 3:22)

Jesus is every believers Great High Priest (Heb 1:14), after the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:10, 7:14-17) . When we accept/trust in Christ's sin payment & resurrection. Our High Priest imputes/transfers ALL our sins onto Himself forgiving/pardoning them ALL (Heb 10:10). Our High Priest then imputes/transfers HIS righteousness onto us & we become the righteous of God thru faith in Christ (2 Cor 5:21). Imputed see: Rom 4:8 11, 22, 23, 24, 2 Cor 5:19, Ja 2:23 & Lev chapter 4. Amen

 

[RandyPNW]

Levitical priestly order is established at Aarons ordination:

Lev 8:1-12 God commands Moses; get some anointing oil, VS 6, wash/purify (full mikveh - precursor of NT baptism) Aaron & his sons with water, VS 12, Moses pours the anointing oil on Aaron's head to sanctify = "set him apart" for priestly duties. Marking Aarons ordination & establishment of the Levitical priestly order.

At Aarons priestly ordination: He's required to undergo full mikveh (baptism), then Moses anoints Aaron with oil &d Aaron becomes Cohen Gadol/High Priest, mediator between God & the entire Nation of Israel. The Levitical order is established.

Jesus & the Priestly Pattern

John water baptizes Jesus & from heaven God confirms (Lk 3:22) & anoints Jesus with an unlimited measure of the Holy Spirit. (Jn 3:34)

Right after John baptizes Jesus, He goes into the wilderness (See Azazel Scapegoat Lev 16:8-20) Jesus now begins his earthly/priestly ministry as a mediator between man & God.

Jesus/the Lamb is sacrificed & dies, the earth quaked & the veil of the Temple is torn in 1/2 (Matt 27:51 The Levitical order is retired). Jesus breaks & passes thru the spiritual barrier, guarded by cherubim since man's removal from the garden. The Temple veil had Cherubim embroidered onto it (Ex 26:31). 40 days later in the presence of God, Jesus enters the Heavenly Temple, made without hands, with His own sinless blood, sprinkles it onto the alter, obtaining eternal redemption for every believer (Heb 9:12,12,22,24). The Priestly eternal order of Melchizedek is established, redemption completed, permanent intercession & Jesus sits down at the right hand of the Father.

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (Also see Psalms 110:4)
(NOTE: A priest FOREVER after the order of Melchizedek)

Additional info in John the Baptist:

John the Baptist father, Zacharias, was a Temple Priest (Lk 1:5 & 8). A pure blooded descent of Aaron on both his mothers & fathers side.(1 Chr 24:10). Belonging to the priestly division of Abijah, 8th course rotation to serve 8 days Sabbath to Sabbath (1 Chron 23:1-6, 24:1-19).

Zacharias is in the Temple, at the altar of incense, preforming his Priestly duties. When an angel appears (Lk 1:11). Tells him he will have a son (his wife is to old & barren Lk:7) & that his son (John the Baptist) shall prepare the way for the coming Messiah.

God choose Aaron (when his staff budded Num 17:1-8) to be the 1st Levitical High Priest & God choose John the Baptist, whom God filled/anointed with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb (Lk 1:15). To be the last Levitical High Priest.

Matt 11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
NOTE: Jesus says; John the Baptist was a prophet & MORE)

Luke 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
(NOTE: Luke tells us, Jesus said; John the Baptist was a prophet & MUCH MORE.)

Here the Lord is instructing Aaron His Chosen High Priest:

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
(NOTE: Priests of the Levitical order "were not to drink wine nor strong drink", throughout their generations)

Here an angel of the Lord is giving Zacharias instructions regarding John the Baptist:

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
(NOTE: He "shall drink neither wine nor strong drink".)

Jn 1:29 John announces: Behold the Lamb of God that TAKES AWAY (Temple sacrifices COVERED - only for 1 ys, they did not take away) the sins of the world

A lot happens at Jesus baptism, none of which had anything to do with sin or repentance, He was SINLESS (2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19, 1 Pet 2:22) & had zero to repent from.

Sin imputation:

Lev 16:21 Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
(NOTE: Once per yr on the Day of Atonement (Lev 16:2-24, 23:26-27, Heb 9:7) the High Priest, mediator between God & the people. Would place his hands on an innocent sacrifice, confess the ENTIRE Nations transgressions/sins, imputing/transferring all their sins onto the sacrifice. This (scapegoat Lev 16:8-22) was lead then into the WILDERNESS. The people could see/watch their sins being removed. Where did the Spirit immediately lead Jesus to go after His baptism? The WILDERNESS! (Matt 4:1)

John the Baptist announces, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. John - God's chosen High Priest, laid his hands on Jesus & imputed/transferred (see Lev 16:20-21) all the sins of humankind onto God's chosen LAMB. When Jesus comes up: The Holy Ghost descends in a bodily shape like a dove upon Jesus & a voice came from heaven confirms Jesus is God's Son (Lk 3:22)

Jesus is every believers Great High Priest (Heb 1:14), after the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:10, 7:14-17) . When we accept/trust in Christ's sin payment & resurrection. Our High Priest imputes/transfers ALL our sins onto Himself forgiving/pardoning them ALL (Heb 10:10). Our High Priest then imputes/transfers HIS righteousness onto us & we become the righteous of God thru faith in Christ (2 Cor 5:21). Imputed see: Rom 4:8 11, 22, 23, 24, 2 Cor 5:19, Ja 2:23 & Lev chapter 4. Amen

The transition from Aaron to Jesus is so orderly and so meaningful. Thanks for laying out some of these things that were going on when Jesus came onto the scene.

 

[Hawkins]

There's a mediator between God and the Jews, naturally there's a mediator between God and all mankind, who is Jesus Christ.

 

[Jan001]

Jesus is every believers Great High Priest (Heb 1:14), after the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:10, 7:14-17) . When we accept/trust in Christ's sin payment & resurrection. Our High Priest imputes/transfers ALL our sins onto Himself forgiving/pardoning them ALL (Heb 10:10). Our High Priest then imputes/transfers HIS righteousness onto us & we become the righteous of God thru faith in Christ (2 Cor 5:21). Imputed see: Rom 4:8 11, 22, 23, 24, 2 Cor 5:19, Ja 2:23 & Lev chapter 4. Amen

Jesus does not transfer his righteousness onto us. When we are baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20, our sins are washed away, the Holy Spirit of Grace enters our souls, and it is his presence that sanctifies us (makes us righteous).

 

[BobRyan]

Levitical priestly order is established at Aarons ordination:

Lev 8:1-12 God commands Moses; get some anointing oil, VS 6, wash/purify (full mikveh - precursor of NT baptism) Aaron & his sons with water, VS 12, Moses pours the anointing oil on Aaron's head to sanctify = "set him apart" for priestly duties. Marking Aarons ordination & establishment of the Levitical priestly order.

At Aarons priestly ordination: He's required to undergo full mikveh (baptism), then Moses anoints Aaron with oil &d Aaron becomes Cohen Gadol/High Priest, mediator between God & the entire Nation of Israel. The Levitical order is established.

Jesus & the Priestly Pattern

John water baptizes Jesus & from heaven God confirms (Lk 3:22) & anoints Jesus with an unlimited measure of the Holy Spirit. (Jn 3:34)

Right after John baptizes Jesus, He goes into the wilderness (See Azazel Scapegoat Lev 16:8-20) Jesus now begins his earthly/priestly ministry as a mediator between man & God.

Jesus/the Lamb is sacrificed & dies, the earth quaked & the veil of the Temple is torn in 1/2 (Matt 27:51 The Levitical order is retired)

true

. Jesus breaks & passes thru the spiritual barrier, guarded by cherubim

?? what in the world??

The Temple veil had Cherubim embroidered onto it (Ex 26:31).

true

40 days later in the presence of God, Jesus enters the Heavenly Temple, made without hands, with His own sinless blood, sprinkles it onto the alter

true. Heb 9. Jesus innaugurated the Heb 8:15 temple in heaven at His ascension

Additional info in John the Baptist:

John the Baptist father, Zacharias, was a Temple Priest (Lk 1:5 & 8). A pure blooded descent of Aaron on both his mothers & fathers side.(1 Chr 24:10). Belonging to the priestly division of Abijah, 8th course rotation to serve 8 days Sabbath to Sabbath (1 Chron 23:1-6, 24:1-19).

Zacharias is in the Temple, at the altar of incense, preforming his Priestly duties. When an angel appears (Lk 1:11). Tells him he will have a son (his wife is to old & barren Lk:7) & that his son (John the Baptist) shall prepare the way for the coming Messiah

true

God choose Aaron (when his staff budded Num 17:1-8) to be the 1st Levitical High Priest & God choose John the Baptist, whom God filled/anointed with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb (Lk 1:15). To be the last Levitical High Priest.

We don't know that John the baptizer was ever High Priest

Matt 11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
NOTE: Jesus says; John the Baptist was a prophet & MORE)

Luke 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
(NOTE: Luke tells us, Jesus said; John the Baptist was a prophet & MUCH MORE.)

He was stated to be "more than a prophet" but not 'more than a priest". all we have is "more than a prophet" in scripture

Here the Lord is instructing Aaron His Chosen High Priest:

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
(NOTE: Priests of the Levitical order "were not to drink wine nor strong drink", throughout their generations)

true.
Same is said of Kings
Same is commanded of Israel

John the Baptist announces, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. John - God's chosen High Priest, laid his hands on Jesus & imputed/transferred (see Lev 16:20-21) all the sins of humankind onto God's chosen LAMB.

John never said that he did that, Jesus never said John did that "transfer"

 

[BrotherJJ]

Jesus does not transfer his righteousness onto us. When we are baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20, our sins are washed away, the Holy Spirit of Grace enters our souls, and it is his presence that sanctifies us (makes us righteous).

The NT doctrine of imputed righteousness isn't a later invention. It’s the direct continuation of the OT's own categories. The OT already teaches:
Righteousness comes from the LORD Himself. Righteousness is credited by faith, Righteousness is a gift, not a human product. Sin is transferred to a substitute. Forgiveness is by blood, not water. Paul isn't creating a new system in Rom 4 or 2 Cor 5:21. Paul’s expounding the one God already established.

The OT explicitly names God as "our righteousness'. Jer 23:6 This is his name: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer 33:16 The LORD our righteousness.

Righteousness is not:
Produced by ritual, infused by water, generated by human action. Righteousness is from the LORD, not from baptism. Paul's statement in 2 Cor 5:21 is simply Jeremiah fulfilled:
He takes our sin & we receive His righteousness. That is imputation, the OT's own category.

RIGHTEOUSNESS is a GIFT given thru FAITH: Rom 4:5 & 5:17-18

Abraham proves righteousness is credited by faith, not ritual.

Genesis 15:6 "He believed the LORD & the Lord counted it to him for righteousness." This is the core text. Paul builds Rom 4 entirely on this verse because it teaches:
Righteousness is credited, righteousness is by faith, righteousness is apart from ritual, righteousness is before circumcision, righteousness is before any commanded act. If righteousness were imparted through baptism, Paul could not use Abraham as the model of justification. But he does, because Abraham's righteousness was imputed.

The NT explicitly calls righteousness a gift
This is where your argument becomes unanswerable. Rom 5:17 "those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness." Rom 5:15–16 Paul repeats the same idea: righteousness & justification come as a gift, not as a result of works. A gift is:
Received, not earned, given, not performed & credited, not infused. This aligns perfectly with Gen 15:6 & Jeremiah 23:6. It also destroys the idea that righteousness is imparted through baptismal action. Gifts are not rituals.

The OT sacrificial system teaches imputation by transfer
Lev The sinner lays his hand on the sacrifice & the sin is transferred to the substitute. This is the OT picture of:
Imputed sin, atonement by blood & forgiveness through substitution.

Paul's statement in 2 Cor 5:21 is the fulfillment of Leviticus:
"He made Him to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." That is double imputation:
Our sin onto Christ & His righteousness onto us. Water plays no role in this transfer.

The OT repeatedly states forgiveness is by blood, not water
Lev 17:11 It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul
Heb 9:22 Without shedding of blood there is no remission
Matt 26:28 My blood, shed for many for the remission of sins
Rev 1:5 Washed us… in His own blood
Rom 3:25 Propitiation through faith in His blood
Eph 1:7 Redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins
Col 1:14 Redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

The OT & NT speak with one voice:
Forgiveness is blood‑based, not water‑based.

Finally
Faith is the moment:
Therefore, Paul's doctrine is the only one that fits the OT Rom 4:5, 5L17-18 & 2 Cor 5:21 are not innovations, they are the only interpretation consistent with:
Jer The LORD our righteousness. Abraham's righteousness credited by faith. Righteousness as a gift! Levitical imputation through substitution & Blood based remission.

The opposing view > "Jesus does not transfer His righteousness > baptism makes us righteous contradicts:
Jeremiah, Genesis, Leviticus, Paul, Hebrews & Jesus' own words about His blood. It collapses every biblical category.

 

[RandyPNW]

Jesus does not transfer his righteousness onto us. When we are baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20, our sins are washed away, the Holy Spirit of Grace enters our souls, and it is his presence that sanctifies us (makes us righteous).

I agree that Jesus' righteousness is his righteousness, and our righteousness is our righteousness. However, our righteousness does come from him who knew and can know no sin. That doesn't make us sinless. It only means we share in his very virtues, of love, of kindness, etc. We are drawing our righteousness *from him, * and participating in it by our own choice.

So, I suppose I'm taking a little bit from both of you, and hope you both agree?

 

[BrotherJJ]

I agree that Jesus' righteousness is his righteousness, and our righteousness is our righteousness. However, our righteousness does come from him who knew and can know no sin. That doesn't make us sinless. It only means we share in his very virtues, of love, of kindness, etc. We are drawing our righteousness *from him, * and participating in it by our own choice.

So, I suppose I'm taking a little bit from both of you, and hope you both agree?

Hello Randy, I just want to clarify my position.

RIGHTEOUSNESS

KJ Bible Dictionary Definition: RIGHTEOUSNESS

Applied to God, the perfection or holiness of his nature; exact rectitude, faithfulness. The active and passive obedience of Christ, by which the law of God is fulfilled. The cause of our justification. The Lord our righteousness. Jer: 23.

(NOTE: Christ's obedience fulfilled the law's demands & satisfied sin's penalty. Our faith rests in His righteousness, which is the cause of our justification. The LORD is our righteousness. (Jer 23:6 & 33:16.))

Human righteousness fails & God replaces it

Isa 64:6 says our righteousness is like filthy rags, meaning even our best efforts are disqualified in God's courtroom. That's why the NT says righteousness must be credited (Rom 4:5) & given as a gift (Rom 5:17) & why a SINLESS Christ Himself "became" our righteousness" (1 Cor 1:30). God doesn't clean up our rags. He replaces them with Christ's righteousness.

Jeremiah's two‑verse prophecy of imputed righteousness

Jer 23:6 says the Messiah's name is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS & Jer 33:16 says that same name is placed on His people. The King's righteousness becomes the people's righteousness. Exactly what Paul calls the GIFT of righteousness (Rom 5:17) & Christ becoming our righteousness in (1 Cor 1:30).

The Ark: the gospel in object form

Inside the ark were the broken commandments > our failure. But God never looked at the law directly. He only looked at the blood on the mercy seat. The blood stood between the Judge & the broken law, just as Christ's righteousness stands between God & us. God doesn't see our shattered obedience. He sees the blood payment of His Son.

RIGHTEOUSNESS is a GIFT given thru FAITH: Rom 4:5 & 5:17-18

Paul's summary: righteousness is Christ Himself, given to the believer

1 Cor 1:30, Rom 4:5 & 5:17–18 all say the same thing: God places us in Christ. Christ Himself becomes our righteousness & that righteousness is credited & given as a gift to the one who believes & not earned through good works. Good works earn a reward, even a drink of water (Matt 10:42 & Rev 22:12) given in His name will receive a reward.

Our righteous GIFT is received through faith placed in Christ's obedient, sacrificial sin atoning work/payment. The NT's pattern is consistent: righteousness is Christ Himself given to the believer, credited through faith & faith alone.

Conclusion
Righteousness is God‑given, Christ‑embodied & faith‑received & never human‑produced.

 

[Jan001]

Righteousness is not:
Produced by ritual, infused by water, generated by human action. Righteousness is from the LORD, not from baptism. Paul's statement in 2 Cor 5:21 is simply Jeremiah fulfilled:
He takes our sin & we receive His righteousness. That is imputation, the OT's own category.

1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

A person is reborn spiritually when he is baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.

This water baptism commanded by Jesus is what makes a person righteous/justified/in right relationship with God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

RIGHTEOUSNESS is a GIFT given thru FAITH: Rom 4:5 & 5:17-18

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Faith alone does not save a person.
If a person does not believe, he does not get baptized. The water baptism commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:18-20 is what actually saves a person, not his faith alone.

The water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20 is what makes us his disciples.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

This baptismal water is what washes away all the sins on our souls at the time of our baptism.

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

 

[BrotherJJ]

1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

A person is reborn spiritually when he is baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.

This water baptism commanded by Jesus is what makes a person righteous/justified/in right relationship with God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.




Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Faith alone does not save a person.
If a person does not believe, he does not get baptized. The water baptism commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:18-20 is what actually saves a person, not his faith alone.

The water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20 is what makes us his disciples.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

This baptismal water is what washes away all the sins on our souls at the time of our baptism.

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Acts 10:44–48 lets settle the core issue directly. Peter says the Holy Spirit fell on them "just as on us at (Pentecost) the beginning" (Acts 11:15), which Jesus Himself defined as Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 1:5). That Spirit baptism happened before water & is interpreted by Peter as God purifying their hearts by FAITH (Acts 15:9). So here's the unavoidable question:

Which baptism actually marks the moment of remission in the narrative? The baptism Jesus performed immersing them in the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:44, or the water baptism Peter performs afterward in Acts 10:47?

You can't say "both," because the text gives the order. You can't say "water," because Peter says God had already purified them (Acts 15:9). And you can't say "neither," because the Holy Spirit's arrival is the forever (Jn 14:16) seal of salvation (Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & 5:5).

Peter still led them to water because baptism was the public identification with Jesus as Messiah. A bold and costly act for any Jew of that time. It was obedience & confession, not the moment God granted remission. Remission happened when the Holy Spirit baptized/filled/indwelt them 1st.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].
(NOTE: They HEARD, BELIEVED & were FOREVER (Jn 14:16) SEALED by/with/in the Holy Spirit. That is the New Testament's salvation sequence & Acts 10 matches it perfectly.)

 

[RandyPNW]

Hello Randy, I just want to clarify my position.

RIGHTEOUSNESS

KJ Bible Dictionary Definition: RIGHTEOUSNESS

Applied to God, the perfection or holiness of his nature; exact rectitude, faithfulness. The active and passive obedience of Christ, by which the law of God is fulfilled. The cause of our justification. The Lord our righteousness. Jer: 23.

(NOTE: Christ's obedience fulfilled the law's demands & satisfied sin's penalty. Our faith rests in His righteousness, which is the cause of our justification. The LORD is our righteousness. (Jer 23:6 & 33:16.))

Human righteousness fails & God replaces it

Isa 64:6 says our righteousness is like filthy rags, meaning even our best efforts are disqualified in God's courtroom. That's why the NT says righteousness must be credited (Rom 4:5) & given as a gift (Rom 5:17) & why a SINLESS Christ Himself "became" our righteousness" (1 Cor 1:30). God doesn't clean up our rags. He replaces them with Christ's righteousness.

Jeremiah's two‑verse prophecy of imputed righteousness

Jer 23:6 says the Messiah's name is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS & Jer 33:16 says that same name is placed on His people. The King's righteousness becomes the people's righteousness. Exactly what Paul calls the GIFT of righteousness (Rom 5:17) & Christ becoming our righteousness in (1 Cor 1:30).

The Ark: the gospel in object form

Inside the ark were the broken commandments > our failure. But God never looked at the law directly. He only looked at the blood on the mercy seat. The blood stood between the Judge & the broken law, just as Christ's righteousness stands between God & us. God doesn't see our shattered obedience. He sees the blood payment of His Son.

RIGHTEOUSNESS is a GIFT given thru FAITH: Rom 4:5 & 5:17-18

Paul's summary: righteousness is Christ Himself, given to the believer

1 Cor 1:30, Rom 4:5 & 5:17–18 all say the same thing: God places us in Christ. Christ Himself becomes our righteousness & that righteousness is credited & given as a gift to the one who believes & not earned through good works. Good works earn a reward, even a drink of water (Matt 10:42 & Rev 22:12) given in His name will receive a reward.

Our righteous GIFT is received through faith placed in Christ's obedient, sacrificial sin atoning work/payment. The NT's pattern is consistent: righteousness is Christ Himself given to the believer, credited through faith & faith alone.

Conclusion
Righteousness is God‑given, Christ‑embodied & faith‑received & never human‑produced.

Wow, you've done your homework! Thanks!

 

[Jan001]

Acts 10:44–48 lets settle the core issue directly. Peter says the Holy Spirit fell on them "just as on us at (Pentecost) the beginning" (Acts 11:15), which Jesus Himself defined as Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 1:5). That Spirit baptism happened before water & is interpreted by Peter as God purifying their hearts by FAITH (Acts 15:9). So here's the unavoidable question:

Which baptism actually marks the moment of remission in the narrative? The baptism Jesus performed immersing them in the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:44, or the water baptism Peter performs afterward in Acts 10:47?

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:44-47 is not the natural order of the two baptisms. This was out of the natural order for a specific reason. The reason was to show the apostles that the non-circumcised, believing Gentiles were to be accepted in the new covenant.

Acts 10:35
Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.

The water baptism that Peter performed in Acts 10:48 is the baptism that actually forgave their sins. It is this water baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-19, which forgave their sins and made them his disciples.

Acts 10:48
He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’

You can't say "both," because the text gives the order. You can't say "water," because Peter says God had already purified them (Acts 15:9). And you can't say "neither," because the Holy Spirit's arrival is the forever (Jn 14:16) seal of salvation (Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & 5:5).

God purified the unclean foods in Acts 15:9 to show that all foods are now acceptable under Jesus' new covenant. Mark 7:18-19
He did not purify the individual Gentiles. They must be baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-19 in order to be purified.

John 14:16 tells the leaders of his church that he will send them the Holy Spirit to help them to lead his church. They received him on Pentecost.

Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30 show that the water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20 is what gives them the Holy Spirit's sanctifying presence within their souls.

Ephesians 5:26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word

2 Corinthians 1:22 & 5:5 also pertains to the result of the water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20.

 

[BrotherJJ]

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:44-47 is not the natural order of the two baptisms. This was out of the natural order for a specific reason. The reason was to show the apostles that the non-circumcised, believing Gentiles were to be accepted in the new covenant.

Acts 10:35
Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.

The water baptism that Peter performed in Acts 10:48 is the baptism that actually forgave their sins. It is this water baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-19, which forgave their sins and made them his disciples.

Acts 10:48
He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’


God purified the unclean foods in Acts 15:9 to show that all foods are now acceptable under Jesus' new covenant. Mark 7:18-19
He did not purify the individual Gentiles. They must be baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-19 in order to be purified.

John 14:16 tells the leaders of his church that he will send them the Holy Spirit to help them to lead his church. They received him on Pentecost.

Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30 show that the water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20 is what gives them the Holy Spirit's sanctifying presence within their souls.

Ephesians 5:26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word

2 Corinthians 1:22 & 5:5 also pertains to the result of the water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20.

You just overturned the actual text of Acts 10, Acts 11 & Acts 15 in order to preserve a theological conclusion Peter himself contradicts.

You claimed Acts 15:9 refers to "unclean foods," not Gentile believers. That is simply false. Acts 15:7–11 is Peter recounting the Cornelius event, not dietary laws.

Peter says:
God made a choice among you that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. (Vs 7)
God, bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us. (Vs 8)
He purified their hearts by FAITH. (Vs 9)

The antecedent of "their hearts" is Gentile believers, not food. You imported Mk 7 into Acts 15 to avoid Peter's plain statement. That is not exegesis. That is override.

You claimed the Spirit baptism in Acts 10 was "out of order." Peter says the exact opposite.
Peter interprets the event:
The Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. (Acts 11:15). Then I remembered the word of the Lord, "You will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 11:16). Peter does not call it an exception. He calls it the same baptism Jesus promised. You're calling "out of order" what Peter calls ""exactly like Pentecost.""

You claimed water baptism in Acts 10:48 is what forgave their sins. Peter says God had already purified them before water.
Acts 10:44 > Spirit falls, Acts 10:45 > Jews astonished, Acts 10:46 > They speak in tongues, Acts 10:47 > Can anyone forbid water, since they HAVE RECEIVED the Holy Spirit just as we have? Acts 10:48 > Then water baptism.

Peter's say's can anyone forbid water? AFTER they HAD RECEIVED the Spirit!

Peter interprets that Spirit reception as:
God purified their hearts by FAITH (Acts 15:9). You are claiming water did what Peter says God already did.

You misused every passage you cited. Matt 28:18–19, Jesus commands water baptism for disciples. He NEVER say's water remits sins!

Acts 22:16 What washes away sins? "Calling on His name", not the water.

Acts 2:21 Peter say's 21And it shall come to pass, that """whosoever shall CALL on the name of the Lord""" shall be saved.

Rom 10:13 Paul say/s For """whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord""" shall be saved.

Eph 1:13, You claimed this refers to water baptism.
Paul says the Spirit is given:
When they HEARD & BELIEVED they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. No water in the text.

Eph 5:26,This is metaphorical, not sacramental "washing of water WITH the word." The cleansing agent is the WORD, not a ritual.

2 Cor 1:22 & 5:5, Both refer to the Spirit as the seal & Paul says the Spirit is given at FAITH, not water (Gal 3:2).

The question you still cannot answer remains on the table:
In Acts 10, which baptism marks the moment of salvation. The one JESUS performs with the Spirit (Vs 44) or the water baptism Peter performs afterward (Vs 47)?

Until you answer that from the text, you're not defending Scripture, You're defending a system Peter himself contradicts.

 

[Jan001]

You just overturned the actual text of Acts 10, Acts 11 & Acts 15 in order to preserve a theological conclusion Peter himself contradicts.

You claimed Acts 15:9 refers to "unclean foods," not Gentile believers. That is simply false. Acts 15:7–11 is Peter recounting the Cornelius event, not dietary laws.

The vision did make the claim that all unclean foods were now clean under the new covenant.

Peter surmised from this vision that now the previously unclean believing Gentiles, such as Cornelius, were as worthy as the believing Jews to be baptized into the Christian faith.

Peter says:
God made a choice among you that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. (Vs 7)
God, bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us. (Vs 8)
He purified their hearts by FAITH. (Vs 9)

Acts 10:44-48
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

It is true that they received the Holy Spirit with fire, but in order to have their sins forgiven, they still had to be water baptized according to Jesus' commandment in Matthew 28:18:20.

The natural order to become a Christian:

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

A person first receives the gift of the Holy Spirit through water baptism. This baptism makes him a Christian disciple.
Then, through the laying on of hands, this disciple receives a further outpouring of the Holy Spirit's graces in order to help him to live a good Christian life and to be a good example to others.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

The Gentiles who received the Holy Spirit with fire first before water baptism did not follow the natural order of receiving the Holy Spirit. Please note that the laying on of hands is the natural way for the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit with fire.

You claimed the Spirit baptism in Acts 10 was "out of order." Peter says the exact opposite.
Peter interprets the event:
The Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. (Acts 11:15). Then I remembered the word of the Lord, "You will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 11:16). Peter does not call it an exception. He calls it the same baptism Jesus promised. You're calling "out of order" what Peter calls ""exactly like Pentecost.""

You claimed water baptism in Acts 10:48 is what forgave their sins. Peter says God had already purified them before water.
Acts 10:44 > Spirit falls, Acts 10:45 > Jews astonished, Acts 10:46 > They speak in tongues, Acts 10:47 > Can anyone forbid water, since they HAVE RECEIVED the Holy Spirit just as we have? Acts 10:48 > Then water baptism.

Peter's say's can anyone forbid water? AFTER they HAD RECEIVED the Spirit!

Peter interprets that Spirit reception as:
God purified their hearts by FAITH (Acts 15:9). You are claiming water did what Peter says God already did
You claimed water baptism in Acts 10:48 is what forgave their sins. Peter says God had already purified them before water.

Acts 10:44 > Spirit falls, Acts 10:45 > Jews astonished, Acts 10:46 > They speak in tongues, Acts 10:47 > Can anyone forbid water, since they HAVE RECEIVED the Holy Spirit just as we have? Acts 10:48 > Then water baptism.

Peter's say's can anyone forbid water? AFTER they HAD RECEIVED the Spirit!

Peter interprets that Spirit reception as:

God purified their hearts by FAITH (Acts 15:9). You are claiming water did what Peter says God already d

Eph 1:13, You claimed this refers to water baptism.
Paul says the Spirit is given:
When they HEARD & BELIEVED they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. No water in the text

Like I said before, the normal way to become Jesus' disciple is to be water baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 25:18-20. This event in Acts was an exception to the natural order. Its purpose was to show the apostles that Gentiles were to be accepted into Christianity. Notice how amazed the Jews were that these Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit. They believed that the new covenant was for Jews only.

Can a person enter the kingdom of God without the water baptism commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 25:18-20?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Peter claims that it is the water baptism that Jesus commanded that washes away/forgives their sins.

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

How is a person reborn spiritually?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus stated emphatically that unless a person is water baptized calling on the Spirit of God, he cannot enter the kingdom of God after he dies. Actually, Jesus commands that they must call on the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit while being washed with baptismal water in order to have their sins forgiven.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The baptism commanded by Jesus:

Ephesians 5:25b-27
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

1 Corinthians 6:11b
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Peter 3:21
and this water (saving Noah's ark from harm) symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God (sanctified and justified by water baptism). It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

 

[BrotherJJ]

The vision did make the claim that all unclean foods were now clean under the new covenant.

Peter surmised from this vision that now the previously unclean believing Gentiles, such as Cornelius, were as worthy as the believing Jews to be baptized into the Christian faith.


Acts 10:44-48
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

It is true that they received the Holy Spirit with fire, but in order to have their sins forgiven, they still had to be water baptized according to Jesus' commandment in Matthew 28:18:20.

The natural order to become a Christian:

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

A person first receives the gift of the Holy Spirit through water baptism. This baptism makes him a Christian disciple.
Then, through the laying on of hands, this disciple receives a further outpouring of the Holy Spirit's graces in order to help him to live a good Christian life and to be a good example to others.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

The Gentiles who received the Holy Spirit with fire first before water baptism did not follow the natural order of receiving the Holy Spirit. Please note that the laying on of hands is the natural way for the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit with fire.



Like I said before, the normal way to become Jesus' disciple is to be water baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 25:18-20. This event in Acts was an exception to the natural order. Its purpose was to show the apostles that Gentiles were to be accepted into Christianity. Notice how amazed the Jews were that these Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit. They believed that the new covenant was for Jews only.

Can a person enter the kingdom of God without the water baptism commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 25:18-20?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Peter claims that it is the water baptism that Jesus commanded that washes away/forgives their sins.

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

How is a person reborn spiritually?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus stated emphatically that unless a person is water baptized calling on the Spirit of God, he cannot enter the kingdom of God after he dies. Actually, Jesus commands that they must call on the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit while being washed with baptismal water in order to have their sins forgiven.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The baptism commanded by Jesus:

Ephesians 5:25b-27
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

1 Corinthians 6:11b
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Peter 3:21
and this water (saving Noah's ark from harm) symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God (sanctified and justified by water baptism). It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

You didn't addressed the central issue I repeated twice. Not once did you deal with the actual sequence in Acts 10:
Acts 10:44 > Spirit falls
Acts 10:45 > Jews astonished
Acts 10:46 > Tongues
Acts 10:47 > """THEY HAVE RECEIVED""" the Holy Spirit just as we have.
Acts 10:48 > THEN water baptism

Peter's question is explicit: """Can anyone forbid water, since """THEY HAVE RECEIVED""" the Holy Spirit?"""

You keep claiming water baptism in (VS48) forgave their sins, but Peter says """God had ALREADY purified them before water."""

And Peter interprets that Spirit reception this way:
God PURIFIED THEIR HEARTS by FAITH. (Acts 15:9)

You are claiming water did what Peter says God already did.

You also didn't answer the point about Ephesians 1:13.

You said it refers to water baptism, but Paul says the Spirit is given:
When you HEARD & BELIEVED. There is no water in the text.

You can quote many verses about water, but unless you deal with the actual narrative sequence Peter gives, you're not answering the question.

So I'll ask it again directly:

Which baptism marks the moment of salvation in Acts 10?

The one Jesus performs with the Spirit in (VS44) or The water baptism Peter performs afterward in (VS47–48)?

Until you answer that from the text, you're avoiding the very passages that refute your conclusion.

 

[Jan001]

You didn't addressed the central issue I repeated twice. Not once did you deal with the actual sequence in Acts 10:
Acts 10:44 > Spirit falls
Acts 10:45 > Jews astonished
Acts 10:46 > Tongues
Acts 10:47 > """THEY HAVE RECEIVED""" the Holy Spirit just as we have.
Acts 10:48 > THEN water baptism

Peter's question is explicit: """Can anyone forbid water, since """THEY HAVE RECEIVED""" the Holy Spirit?"""

You keep claiming water baptism in (VS48) forgave their sins, but Peter says """God had ALREADY purified them before water."""

And Peter interprets that Spirit reception this way:
God PURIFIED THEIR HEARTS by FAITH. (Acts 15:9)

You are claiming water did what Peter says God already did.

You also didn't answer the point about Ephesians 1:13.

You said it refers to water baptism, but Paul says the Spirit is given:
When you HEARD & BELIEVED. There is no water in the text.

You can quote many verses about water, but unless you deal with the actual narrative sequence Peter gives, you're not answering the question.

So I'll ask it again directly:

Which baptism marks the moment of salvation in Acts 10?

The one Jesus performs with the Spirit in (VS44) or The water baptism Peter performs afterward in (VS47–48)?

Until you answer that from the text, you're avoiding the very passages that refute your conclusion.

I already explained this at least twice!

It doesn't matter which of the two baptisms it was in Acts 10. This was not the usual order of baptisms for Christians then, it is not now, and it is not what was commanded by Jesus.

The Acts 10 baptisms were done out of order because of God's miraculous intervention, and it was for a specific reason. The reason was to show the apostles and the believing Jews that the believing Gentiles were worthy to be baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20 and thereby have the hope of entering into the kingdom of God/heaven after they died.

According to Jesus' own words, if you want to enter into the kingdom of God after you die, which of these two baptisms in Acts 10, do you absolutely need ?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

How does a person become born of water and the Spirit?

Jesus actually commands the "how" in Matthew 28:18-20:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

If a person does not believe and become baptized, he will be condemned. A person who does not believe will not be baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20 and so he will not be saved.

Why did Peter command baptism for the Gentiles who had received the Holy Spirit by fire in Acts 10? He commanded them to be baptized as Jesus commanded so that these Gentiles could enter into the kingdom of God after they died.

Acts 10:47-48
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Which baptism actually forgives sins? It is the baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

 

[BrotherJJ]

I already explained this at least twice!

It doesn't matter which of the two baptisms it was in Acts 10. This was not the usual order of baptisms for Christians then, it is not now, and it is not what was commanded by Jesus.

The Acts 10 baptisms were done out of order because of God's miraculous intervention, and it was for a specific reason. The reason was to show the apostles and the believing Jews that the believing Gentiles were worthy to be baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20 and thereby have the hope of entering into the kingdom of God/heaven after they died.

According to Jesus' own words, if you want to enter into the kingdom of God after you die, which of these two baptisms in Acts 10, do you absolutely need ?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

How does a person become born of water and the Spirit?

Jesus actually commands the "how" in Matthew 28:18-20:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

If a person does not believe and become baptized, he will be condemned. A person who does not believe will not be baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20 and so he will not be saved.

Why did Peter command baptism for the Gentiles who had received the Holy Spirit by fire in Acts 10? He commanded them to be baptized as Jesus commanded so that these Gentiles could enter into the kingdom of God after they died.

Acts 10:47-48
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Which baptism actually forgives sins? It is the baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

You're repeating verses but still not answering the actual question from the text. Let's stay with the narrative Luke gives us.

Acts 10:44 > Spirit falls - Acts 10:45 > Jews astonished - Acts 10:46 > Tongues - Acts 10:47 > THEY HAVE RECEIVED the Holy Spirit just as we have. Acts 10:48 > THEN water baptism.

Peter's own interpretation is crystal clear: God purified their hearts by FAITH. (Acts 15:9)

You keep saying water baptism in VS48 forgave their sins, but Peter says: """God had already purified them before water""". You're assigning to water what Peter assigns to FAITH & SPIRIT.

And this isn't the first time God did it this way. In Acts 2:1–4 the apostles themselves received the Holy Spirit FIRST! No water, no ritual, no out of order exception. Spirit FIRST, water later.

Acts 2 & Acts 10 match perfectly.

You also didn't answer Ephesians 1:13: When you HEARD the word of truth & BELIEVED… you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit. No water in the text. No ritual. No delay.

Your claim that Acts 10 was "out of order": If the order doesn't matter, then your entire argument collapses, because your system requires water 1st then Spirit.

Acts 10 shows Spirit 1st then water & Peter calls that Holy Spirit reception the moment God PURIFIED them.

Your appeal to Jn 3:5 doesnt work here either, because Jesus is distinguishing TWO BIRTHS (flesh birth vs. Spirit birth), not two rituals. Nicodemus wasn't confused about water immersion rituals. He was confused about re‑entering the womb.

Finally, you still haven't answered the central question: Which baptism marks the moment of salvation in Acts 10?

The baptism Jesus performs with the Holy Spirit in Vs44 or The water baptism Peter performs afterward in Vs48.

Peter says they HAD ALREADY received the Holy Spirit baptism. Peter says God had ALREADY PURIFIED them. Paul says believers are sealed when they HEAR & BELIEVE.

Until you answer that directly from the text, you're avoiding the very passages that refute your position.

 

[Jan001]

You're repeating verses but still not answering the actual question from the text. Let's stay with the narrative Luke gives us.

Acts 10:44 > Spirit falls - Acts 10:45 > Jews astonished - Acts 10:46 > Tongues - Acts 10:47 > THEY HAVE RECEIVED the Holy Spirit just as we have. Acts 10:48 > THEN water baptism.

Peter's own interpretation is crystal clear: God purified their hearts by FAITH. (Acts 15:9)

In Acts 15:9, it is the Gentiles' hearts that have been purified. It does not state that all their sins were washed away from their souls.

Peter commanded that the Gentiles in Acts 10 be baptized as Jesus commanded. This was so that their souls would be purified of Adam's sin and all of their own sins.

Acts 10: 47-48
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

It is the baptism commanded by Jesus Christ that forgives all the sins on a person's soul.

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

You keep saying water baptism in VS48 forgave their sins, but Peter says: """God had already purified them before water""". You're assigning to water what Peter assigns to FAITH & SPIRIT.

And this isn't the first time God did it this way. In Acts 2:1–4 the apostles themselves received the Holy Spirit FIRST! No water, no ritual, no out of order exception. Spirit FIRST, water later.

The apostles were baptized as Jesus commanded before he ascended into heaven. Their souls were sanctified/made holy at this time. Matthew 28:18-20. They waited for 50 days after his ascension to receive the baptism of fire.


1 Corinthians 6:11
That is what some of you used to be! But you were washed clean, you were made holy to God, and you were made right with God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

You also didn't answer Ephesians 1:13: When you HEARD the word of truth & BELIEVED… you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit. No water in the text. No ritual. No delay.

Ephesians 1:13 was just an abbreviated summary of the baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20.

Mark:16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The baptism that seals a person with the Holy Spirit is the baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The baptism of fire, which is additional gift of the Holy Spirit, is normally given by the laying on of hands, and it is given after the baptism of Jesus.

Acts 8:14-17
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

You need to consider all the scripture verses about the three types of baptism in the NT to know which baptism actually forgives sins. You cannot just use the verses from Acts 10. The baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20 is the baptism that washes away Adam's sin and all the personal sins on the soul at the time of the baptism.


God can miraculously give the Holy Spirit to anyone he chooses, such as he did in Acts 10, but it does not forgive all the sins on his soul. The baptism of Jesus is what forgives sins.

God also gave the Holy Spirit to John the Baptist and his mother while the first covenant was still in force. This did not forgive Adam's sin that was on their souls.

Luke 1:41
And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:44
For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

 

[BrotherJJ]

In Acts 15:9, it is the Gentiles' hearts that have been purified. It does not state that all their sins were washed away from their souls.

Peter commanded that the Gentiles in Acts 10 be baptized as Jesus commanded. This was so that their souls would be purified of Adam's sin and all of their own sins.

Acts 10: 47-48
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

It is the baptism commanded by Jesus Christ that forgives all the sins on a person's soul.

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’




The apostles were baptized as Jesus commanded before he ascended into heaven. Their souls were sanctified/made holy at this time. Matthew 28:18-20. They waited for 50 days after his ascension to receive the baptism of fire.


1 Corinthians 6:11
That is what some of you used to be! But you were washed clean, you were made holy to God, and you were made right with God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


Ephesians 1:13 was just an abbreviated summary of the baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20.

Mark:16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The baptism that seals a person with the Holy Spirit is the baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The baptism of fire, which is additional gift of the Holy Spirit, is normally given by the laying on of hands, and it is given after the baptism of Jesus.

Acts 8:14-17
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

You need to consider all the scripture verses about the three types of baptism in the NT to know which baptism actually forgives sins. You cannot just use the verses from Acts 10. The baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20 is the baptism that washes away Adam's sin and all the personal sins on the soul at the time of the baptism.


God can miraculously give the Holy Spirit to anyone he chooses, such as he did in Acts 10, but it does not forgive all the sins on his soul. The baptism of Jesus is what forgives sins.

God also gave the Holy Spirit to John the Baptist and his mother while the first covenant was still in force. This did not forgive Adam's sin that was on their souls.

Luke 1:41
And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:44
For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Thank you for the exchange. At this point we're working from two completely different frameworks. I'm grounding my view in the Jewish purification categories that Jesus, John, Peter & Paul were operating in & you're grounding yours in a later theological system.

I've presented the passages & the sequence as Luke gives them. I'm content to let readers examine the Scriptures & decide for themselves. Best wishes, JJ

Since these discussions keeps circling around water baptism. I've posted biblical & historical framework behind my position. This isn't aimed at any one person. It's simply the Jewish context that shaped how Jesus, John, Peter & Paul understood purification, baptism & regeneration.

True Circumcision: Jesus’ Baptism with the Holy Spirit Fulfills Every OT Ritual Washing

Since the discussion keeps circling around water & purification, it's time to step back & let Scripture define its own categories. Once the Jewish purification framework is laid out, the New Covenant shift from water washing to Spirit purification becomes impossible to miss Mosaic Law required...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Jan001]

Thank you for the exchange. At this point we're working from two completely different frameworks. I'm grounding my view in the Jewish purification categories that Jesus, John, Peter & Paul were operating in & you're grounding yours in a later theological system.

I've presented the passages & the sequence as Luke gives them. I'm content to let readers examine the Scriptures & decide for themselves. Best wishes, JJ

Since these discussions keeps circling around water baptism. I've posted biblical & historical framework behind my position. This isn't aimed at any one person. It's simply the Jewish context that shaped how Jesus, John, Peter & Paul understood purification, baptism & regeneration.

True Circumcision: Jesus’ Baptism with the Holy Spirit Fulfills Every OT Ritual Washing

Since the discussion keeps circling around water & purification, it's time to step back & let Scripture define its own categories. Once the Jewish purification framework is laid out, the New Covenant shift from water washing to Spirit purification becomes impossible to miss Mosaic Law required...

www.christianforums.com

I read your framework. Thank you for presenting it.


I will rely on Jesus' own words.


The water baptism that Jesus commanded is what saves us and gives us the Holy Spirit of Grace to dwell with us, thereby making us his disciples.


John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 28:18b-20a
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved


When the Gentiles received an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10, it did not forgive their sins. It prepared their hearts for receiving the water baptism that literally forgave their sins. Peter commanded that these Gentiles be baptized so that their sins could be forgiven, thereby making them disciples of Christ. Matthew 28:19

Acts 10:47-48a
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.


Which baptism is the baptism that literally forgives sins? It is the baptism that Jesus commanded.

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Which baptism actually seals a person with the Holy Spirit, thereby making him Jesus' disciple?

It is the baptism that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

It is the baptism that Jesus commanded that seals us with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Through the application of the baptismal water, accompanied by the words that Jesus commanded, the Holy Spirit applied the merits of Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood to the person's soul, sanctifying it by washing away/forgiving all the sins upon it, which makes the person righteous. The Holy Spirit seals his soul, and so it is now a worthy temple for the Spirit of Grace to dwell in. It is the Holy Spirit’s continued presence that keeps the person righteous/saved. It is his indwelling presence that gives the person his hope of eternal life. John 3:5, Titus 3:7


Peter states that it is the water of baptism that now saves us under the new covenant. Previously the flood waters saved Noah in his ark from perishing like the rest of mankind.

1 Peter 3:20b-21
...the days of Noah while the ark was being built, in which a few, that is eight souls, were brought safely through water.
This water prefigures baptism, which now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the body but the answer of a good conscience to God—by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We now have a good conscience toward God because the water baptism that Jesus commanded is what gave us the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, sealing us so that we have hope of eternal life. Ephesians 1:13–14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5, 2 Timothy 2:19


It seems to me that attributing salvation and the sealing by the Holy Spirit to the unbaptized Gentiles in Acts 10 is misguided. It contradicts Jesus’ own words.

An outpouring of the Holy Spirit's grace into a person's heart to prepare him for baptism is not the same as the actual purification of his soul and sealing by the Holy Spirit that he receives through the water baptism commanded by Jesus Christ. John 3:5

Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved