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Why Is It So Hard for Christians to Talk About Justice and Greed?

Rose_bud

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I think we can't separate proclaiming the good news from doing good for others,
I agree we know Jesus proclaimed the good news of His kingdom and an aspect of that message of repentance was that his people turn from what they did not do, which was both to turn from idolatry and repent from not helping the poor and margenalised.

Paul also understood his mandate - when the Jerusalem council reminded him he acknowledged Galatians 2:10.
 
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RDKirk

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I agree we know Jesus proclaimed the good news of His kingdom and an aspect of that message of repentance was that his people turn from what they did not do, which was both to turn from idolatry and repent from not helping the poor and margenalised.

Paul also understood his mandate - when the Jerusalem council reminded him he acknowledged Galatians 2:10.
I suspect he meant the poor members of the Body of Christ because that's specifically the poor he spoke of to the congregations.
 
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Rose_bud

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I suspect he meant the poor members of the Body of Christ because that's specifically the poor he spoke of to the congregations.

Yes, Paul most likely had in mind the family of faith first, but I doubt it was exclusive (Galatians 6:10). For the Torah was for the neighbour too. In the sense that Jews were to demonstrate God to them through actions.

I doubt Jesus was selective and only spoke to the poor members of His body. I don't see it as a linear process. We don't know whether God works in people's lives through our words or acts. Do both and let Him grow.
 
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fhansen

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It's more or less like how Jesus asked those Jews without sins to stone the prostitute. You need someone just to enforce justice. We are righteous simply because of our Faith, not how just we are.

Moreover, in a sinners' world, "society" more or less belongs to Caesar (Caesar is doing a semi-job of "social justice");

Romans 13:3-4
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Socai justice sets down a platform of principles by which to know and be opposed to social evils, aimed even at Caesar if necessary when when he's wrong. Some leaders of countries actually condone evils that should be condemned. So do we draw back in fear of being judged as judgmental, or do we oppose and perhaps become actively involved in some manner in actively opposing human trafficking, the exploitation of labor, genocide, etc?
 
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fhansen

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You must be specific. I have no idea whether you are refering to rembursement for slavery or blame the white guys. Or a thing you can do something about other than pearl clutch.
Well, I'm not sure what good specificity would do first of all if one is opposed to the idea of social justice at the outset. But, ok, though some of these we're already offered: we specifically oppose slavery first of all as an evil that must be stopped, without regard to any reparations or who may've caused it, etc. Likewise for human trafficking, starvation, genocide, domestic and child abuse, discrimination based on race or gender, and maintain that it's the duty of mankind to fight these issues using whaterever availalble resources might apply to the particular need: churches, religious orders, relief agenceis, sometimes police, military, etc.
 
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fhansen

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That's not a plan, that's a statement of values. That is not "a soundly worked out social justice plan that correctly defines social justice such that coordinated efforts can be made to strive to right wrongs as the needs arise. "

The only denomination I've seen with a real plan for social service is the Salvation Army. And their plan for disaster preparedness is awesome.
The soundness is in having a comprehensive acknowledgement of issues to begin with that must be addressed lest we remain conveniently ignorant of what's happening in this world, which is easy enough to do, or just isolate ourselves in our self-conceived holiness with others of like mind. If we don't have compassion for the victims in this world then we haven't really begun to be Christians anyway.

How many fewer people in the world would be fed, housed, and clothed, unless, on a large, united scale we agree on the necessity of taking action to resolve those matters, among other deserving matters of injustice.
 
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RDKirk

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The soundness is in having a comprehensive acknowledgement of issues to begin with that must be addressed lest we remain conveniently ignorant of what's happening in this world, which is easy enough to do, or just isolate ourselves in our self-conceived holiness with others of like mind. If we don't have compassion for the victims in this world then we haven't really begun to be Christians anyway.

How many fewer people in the world would be fed, housed, and clothed, unless, on a large, united scale we agree on the necessity of taking action to resolve those matters, among other deserving matters of injustice.
Clearly that's useless.

If your denomination put in place a system to feed people like the Salvation Army's you'd have a point. The Salvation Army is designed to respond to disasters.

Many of their buildings aren’t just churches or offices. They’re built with big kitchens, large open rooms, and loading areas so they can quickly turn into shelters, feeding sites, or relief centers.

They also don’t scramble for supplies after a disaster hits. They already have contracts with food brokers and suppliers, so they can start buying food and essentials immediately. They keep their food programs going at a continuous trickle that they can ramp up when a disaster strikes.

The Salvation Army owns its own trucks and mobile kitchens. Those canteens can show up fast and serve thousands of meals even when power, roads, or local services are knocked out.

Their thrift stores aren’t just stores, either. They’re really supply hubs full of clothing and household goods that can be redirected straight to people who’ve lost everything. Because they're constantly receiving and rotating stock, they avoid dry rot.

And because the organization is run with a clear chain of command, they already have trained staff and volunteers who know their roles and can be deployed quickly.
 
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fhansen

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If your denomination put in place a system to feed people like the Salvation Army's you'd have a point. The Salvation Army is designed to respond to disasters.
Buit why compare- rather than applaud it wherever it's happening? And my denomination happens to have such a system anyway. It's called Catholic Relief and it's one of the hugest and most efficient relief agencies out there.
 
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timothyu

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The Salvation Army's administrative costs vary by region and reporting body. According to Charity Intelligence Canada, administrative costs are 12% of total revenue, excluding investment income, with fundraising costs at 11% of donations, resulting in 77 cents of every dollar donated going directly to programs.

The September 2017 audit found that only 3% of the CRS's expenses were for administration, leaving 2% for fundraising and 95% for program costs.
 
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Mercy Shown

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Well, I'm not sure what good specificity would do first of all if one is opposed to the idea of social justice at the outset. But, ok, though some of these we're already offered: we specifically oppose slavery first of all as an evil that must be stopped, without regard to any reparations or who may've caused it, etc. Likewise for human trafficking, starvation, genocide, domestic and child abuse, discrimination based on race or gender, and maintain that it's the duty of mankind to fight these issues using whaterever availalble resources might apply to the particular need: churches, religious orders, relief agenceis, sometimes police, military, etc.
I don't know of any Christian church or organization that is afraid to talk about these things. I want to share my sincere concerns with "social justice" as a modern concept. I would hope that you read this carefully and respond to the concerns. Please do not write it off as a fear of talking about social justice.

My thoughts on social justice
I want to offer a concern—not about justice itself, which Scripture clearly affirms—but about the way “social justice” is often used as a broad, undefined category in Christian discussion.

One of the pitfalls of this language is that it can blur biblical categories. In Scripture, justice is grounded in the character of God and tied closely to righteousness, mercy, repentance, and covenant faithfulness. In modern usage, however, social justice can mean many different things, often shaped more by contemporary political or ideological frameworks than by Scripture. When Christians adopt the term uncritically, biblical concepts like sin, grace, reconciliation, and redemption can quietly be replaced by categories such as power, oppression, and identity.

Another danger is moral reductionism. The Bible recognizes unjust systems, but it never treats injustice as merely structural. Jesus consistently locates the root of evil in the human heart (Mark 7:20–23). When injustice is framed only in systemic terms, personal repentance and the need for grace are minimized, and the gospel can be reduced to activism rather than transformation.

There is also a risk of substituting discipleship with causes. Doing good works is essential to Christian faith, but it is possible to confuse moral action with reconciliation to God. Jesus rebuked those who emphasized certain forms of justice while neglecting faithfulness to God Himself (Matt. 23:23). Justice matters—but it must flow from devotion to Christ, not replace it.

This raises an important question: Is social justice the main thrust of Christ’s mission?
The answer, I believe, is no—though justice is certainly not irrelevant.

Jesus is clear about why He came: to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), to reconcile sinners to God (1 Pet. 3:18), and to inaugurate the kingdom of God through repentance and faith. While His teaching has profound ethical and social implications, He consistently refuses to reduce His mission to political or social reform. His kingdom is “not of this world” (John 18:36), and lasting justice flows outward from transformed hearts, not imposed structures.

The early church followed this pattern. They proclaimed Christ crucified, practiced generosity and mercy, cared for the poor, and lived as a holy people within a broken society—without attempting to engineer a worldly utopia through power.

A healthier Christian framing may be this: justice is not the gospel, but the fruit of it. We are called to love God and neighbor, to do justice and love mercy, and to walk humbly with God (Micah 6:8). When justice is biblically defined, rooted in the gospel, practiced personally, and held together with mercy and truth, it reflects Christ rather than replacing Him.

Keeping Christ at the center guards both our theology and our witness.
 
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RDKirk

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Buit why compare- rather than applaud it wherever it's happening? And my denomination happens to have such a system anyway. It's called Catholic Relief and it's one of the hugest and most efficient relief agencies out there.
As I said before: The Body of Christ does not have the spiritual or material power or authority to make a social justice plan applicable to the world.
Catholic Relief does what it can, but it does not have the spiritual or material power or authority to make a social justice plan applicable to the world.

The whole world is not clothed, housed, and fed.

That is not our mission. It wasn't even Jesus' mission.
 
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fhansen

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The Salvation Army's administrative costs vary by region and reporting body. According to Charity Intelligence Canada, administrative costs are 12% of total revenue, excluding investment income, with fundraising costs at 11% of donations, resulting in 77 cents of every dollar donated going directly to programs.

The September 2017 audit found that only 3% of the CRS's expenses were for administration, leaving 2% for fundraising and 95% for program costs.
Yes, And Charity Watch gave Salvation Army an A- rating and CRS received an A+ rating. They're both good organizations.
 
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fhansen

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As I said before: The Body of Christ does not have the spiritual or material power or authority to make a social justice plan applicable to the world.
Catholic Relief does what it can, but it does not have the spiritual or material power or authority to make a social justice plan applicable to the world.

The whole world is not clothed, housed, and fed.

That is not our mission. It wasn't even Jesus' mission.
And yet in Matt 25 He separated the sheep from the goats, those who are saved from those who are not, based on what they did "for the least of these", feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. It-love -has to mean something very important and precious to God.
 
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Firstlightdawn

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I agree we know Jesus proclaimed the good news of His kingdom and an aspect of that message of repentance was that his people turn from what they did not do, which was both to turn from idolatry and repent from not helping the poor and margenalised.
God’s justice is not about balancing the scales by hurting someone back. God’s justice is the act of restoring what was damaged, healing what was broken, and bringing a person or a situation back into alignment with His original design. Human justice looks backward at the offense; God’s justice looks forward at the restoration.
 
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Rose_bud

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God’s justice is not about balancing the scales by hurting someone back. God’s justice is the act of restoring what was damaged, healing what was broken, and bringing a person or a situation back into alignment with His original design. Human justice looks backward at the offense; God’s justice looks forward at the restoration.
I don't think I mentioned that God is vindictive. Ofcourse, God's justice is restorative justice. What we often fail at is how to demonstrate this aspect. Many times, we have a very narrow view of sin. We forget that sin not only impacts our relationship with God, but with others, with ourselves, and with the rest of creation. Jesus came to address the full impact of sin.
 
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Firstlightdawn

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I don't think I mentioned that God is vindictive. Ofcourse, God's justice is restorative justice. What we often fail at is how to demonstrate this aspect. Many times, we have a very narrow view of sin. We forget that sin not only impacts our relationship with God, but with others, with ourselves, and with the rest of creation. Jesus came to address the full impact of sin.
Evangelicals often preach about God’s justice in terms of judgment, forgiveness, and the cross, but they rarely talk about repayment or restitution. They focus on man’s justice — punishment, guilt, and legal categories — not God’s justice, which restores what was damaged and sets things right.

Hellfire and brimstone is not God’s justice. That’s human preaching about punishment, fear, and consequences. God’s justice is about restoring what was broken, healing what was damaged, and setting things right. Punishment is man’s idea of justice; restoration is God’s idea of justice.

WE know that God's Justice is as accurate and precise as the laws of Physics are.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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bèlla

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I think @timothyu's initial post is one side of the dilemma and the other is the absence of community within the church. We're more like a box of legos than a unit. We're living our lives elsewhere and coming together for a moment. But the bulk of our time and focus is beyond that setting. It's hard to build a bond with someone you barely see. You're out of touch with their reality and they're ignorant of yours.

It isn't surprising that people fall between the cracks, get left behind or ignored. Because it isn't a priority in spite of the lip speak. When you want to share your life with someone you make time. I speak to my best friend everyday because she matters. I know what's happening in her life when it occurs. She doesn't need permission to reach out because the door is always open.

God isn't the central theme in our conversation but one of many. Her concerns, challenges, interests and dreams have equal weight. There's mutuality in our bond and give and take as well. And because of our love and trust we do much for one another. She excels in certain areas where I don't and the reverse is true and we help one another.

It comes back to investment and that's what's lacking in the church. You're unlikely to share with someone you're not invested in. We pretend to be a family but I felt it was false all along, I have siblings and know what it entails and a close connection I consider along those lines. But you can't be my brother or sister if you behave otherwise. I'm not raising anyone to that place. You have to put in the work and the majority want immediacy.

Good things take time and won't happen overnight. A lot of people don't know how to be friends. They're too self-absorbed and entitled. They want everything to revolve around them and that's how a lot of christians behave. That doesn't make you very likeable or loveable either and people will give their hearts to someone else.

When you conduct yourselves like strangers you get what comes with that. You're worrying about social justice and greed when you don't get along or have a bond. Work on the obvious problems first. If the church was a building it would collapse because the structure is unsound. You're always worrying about everything but the main thing and it's backwards.

I have no difficulty discussing anything with the people I love. Because our relationships are genuine and we respect one another. They're not situational or circumstantial. That's what the church does. That's why there's no buy-in or longevity and everyone does their thing with little regard for the other. And if that's a family it's very dysfunctional. That isn't my standard of togetherness or one I'd accept. But maybe it's enough for some.

~bella
 
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