Why is so much nonsense coming from America?

[timothyu]

We have actually given up our way of life

I would change that to the nations identity and culture that it grew from scratch

 

[stevevw]

I would change that to the nations identity and culture that it grew from scratch

Well yes. Perhaps not from scratch. It drew from a range of ideas like Christianity and Enlighenment and the fundemental truth principles of Rule of Law and the freedoms we have come to know.

But it seems these ideas are clashing with other beliefs and ideas. All I know is that for any nation to survive it has to be united in some way. Thats usually belief and the culture and traditions that nation first identified as its unique way of being.

So I agree national identity is vital. It seems all sorts of different identities are fighting for truth and supremecy.

 

[timothyu]

So I agree national identity is vital. It seems all sorts of different identities are fighting for truth and supremecy.

Its the old end of days indulgence in self-interest that started in the Garden and is once again going global and testing those who claim they love all as self..

 

[Robban]

Everyday, something new and mean stuff is coming from American online. For example that unemployed people drain the system. That's how I understand it from you. Now it's like your dream of a society where everyone works will never happen, a kind of utopia. The reason I'm writing is because my mother worked in a factory for 32 years or something, and got a medal, and my father has worked for about 30 years also in different places, woke up to the same alarm every day for 30 years, yet they are treated degradingly when we are out because they "just" go there.

Its fun to be mean perhaps, I never understand it, but americans have to kinda weirdos to put all this nonsense out there. I'm always treated well because I've sung so much, but I think it's a bit the opposite of what it should be, maybe then, I've learned a lot on my own, worked hard, but I think 30 years in a factory is tougher

Well, we are 8 billion +and no one can carry all the burdens of the world.

We are all good at something even factory work, best is to do what you are good at. makes life more stressless.

Trust in God conduct oneself with integrity, and the One above will take care of everything.

"Think good and it will be good."
The Rebbe.

 

[ViaCrucis]

nor do I agree that just because the rich does it, doesn't give anyone the right to do it too.

Perhaps.
Shoplifting is against the law, and for good reason. And theft is morally wrong.

But if the wealthy are out stealing bags of gold, I'm probably going to be less worried about when a poor mother steals a loaf of bread to feed her kids. Especially if a big reason why her kids are starving and she's poor is because the wealthy are stealing the gold.

 

[partinobodycular]

Shoplifting is against the law, and for good reason. And theft is morally wrong.

But if the wealthy are out stealing bags of gold, I'm probably going to be less worried about when a poor mother steals a loaf of bread to feed her kids. Especially if a big reason why her kids are starving and she's poor is because the wealthy are stealing the gold.

But I can't help but wonder... at what point do I have the right to tell that mother that feeding her children is wrong? That seems like an incredibly presumptuous thing for me to do... to assume that I have the right to judge the actions of someone who's shoes I've never walked in. Perhaps God has that right, but I'm not God.

If there's one thing that I can be sure of, it's my ignorance. So whether it's a mother shoplifting bread to feed her children, or a crackhead shoplifting iPhones to feed his habit, I always try to keep in mind that while I may be able to judge what's legal, I'll never be certain about just how good I am at judging what's moral.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread was moved from Ethics & Morality as this is a political topic.​

 

[Always in His Presence]

When my parents immigrated (legally) during WW2 they came because the country that they were from was killing the handicapped and my mother suffered from polio. They came with their parents with what little they had and believed there was an American Dream that said if you worked hard, you could be anything you want to be.

I never learned my families native language because the rule in the house was that we are now Americans and Americans speak English. My grand fathers started working menial jobs with one ending as a steel worker and the other in a bottling plant. My father put himself through college by working full time and going to school full time.

 

[Always in His Presence]

We should have the same level of requirements that Norway has. We would be a better nation

 

[partinobodycular]

We should have the same level of requirements that Norway has. We would be a better nation

Could you elaborate for the ignorant among us.

 

[Always in His Presence]

How to Emigrate to Norway: Requirements and Process

Emigrate to Norway with confidence. Our guide details the complete journey, from initial planning to long-term settlement.

legalclarity.org

Individuals from outside the EU/EEA require a residence permit to live and work in Norway for more than 90 days. Several permit categories exist, each with specific eligibility criteria. Work permits are common for skilled workers with a job offer from a Norwegian employer. The job offer must align with the applicant’s qualifications, such as vocational training of at least three years or a university degree.

For those seeking to establish a business, a self-employment visa is an option. This permit requires the applicant to be a skilled worker with relevant qualifications and to present a viable business plan. The business must demonstrate the likelihood of generating an annual income of at least NOK 325,400 before tax, as of May 2025.

Only three out of every 100 would-be refugees try to remain in Norway if their applications for asylum are rejected. A new survey carried out by the state police agency charged with enforcing immigration law indicates that it’s simply too difficult to live as an illegal alien in Norway.

 

[partinobodycular]

Individuals from outside the EU/EEA require a residence permit to live and work in Norway for more than 90 days. Several permit categories exist, each with specific eligibility criteria. Work permits are common for skilled workers with a job offer from a Norwegian employer. The job offer must align with the applicant’s qualifications, such as vocational training of at least three years or a university degree.

For those seeking to establish a business, a self-employment visa is an option. This permit requires the applicant to be a skilled worker with relevant qualifications and to present a viable business plan. The business must demonstrate the likelihood of generating an annual income of at least NOK 325,400 before tax, as of May 2025.

I can't help but wonder if we're comparing apples and oranges. I also think that systems tend to evolve to fit their particular set of circumstances. In other words, what works in Norway won't necessarily work in the U.S. because the circumstances are different. Our socioeconomic systems are so different that to point to one particular element as the fundamental cause of one system's outcome compared to the other may be misguided.

For example, would severely restricting immigration a la Norway help the U.S. economy or hurt it? Wiser minds than mine will debate this ad nauseum, but eventually by trial and error we'll find a system that works for us in the 21st century, and it probably won't be Norway's, because we ain't Norway.

 

[timothyu]

And neither are the Kingdom itself. Guess it all depends on where people's loyalties lie.

 

[ViaCrucis]

But I can't help but wonder... at what point do I have the right to tell that mother that feeding her children is wrong? That seems like an incredibly presumptuous thing for me to do... to assume that I have the right to judge the actions of someone who's shoes I've never walked in. Perhaps God has that right, but I'm not God.

If there's one thing that I can be sure of, it's my ignorance. So whether it's a mother shoplifting bread to feed her children, or a crackhead shoplifting iPhones to feed his habit, I always try to keep in mind that while I may be able to judge what's legal, I'll never be certain about just how good I am at judging what's moral.

I'm not going to condemn a mother for stealing bread to feed her hungry kids.

The point I'm making is that even if we have a moral command, "Do not steal" the act of a rich person stealing gold out of selfish greed and the act of a poor mother stealing food to feed her hungry kids are fundamentally different circumstances and we can't treat them as as though they are the same thing.

So no, I'm not going to condemn a mother who resorts to theft in order to make sure her kids don't starve.
But yes, I am going to condemn the act of a rich person stealing gold and making life worse for the poor mother.

Also, I am going to argue in favor of conditions wherein a mother doesn't have to resort to theft in order for her kids to eat: I want a society in which mothers are able to feed their children without having to resort to theft to do so--they shouldn't have to, they should be able to feed their kids because we enable mothers to be able to take care of and feed their children. And part of that will mean that we can't be a society that enables the rich to get away with stealing the gold and ruining the living conditions of poor mothers.

 

[partinobodycular]

FYI, I seem to be having problems posting at the moment, so I'm going to try to keep this short and hope that it works.

So no, I'm not going to condemn a mother who resorts to theft in order to make sure her kids don't starve.
But yes, I am going to condemn the act of a rich person stealing gold and making life worse for the poor mother.

Although I sincerely admire your compassion when it comes to the mother, I have to disagree with you somewhat when it comes to the rich man, because I don't condemn him either. Each of us is destined to live our lives under circumstances that are ours and ours alone, and it isn't for me to say that I'm somehow better than anyone else... because I'm not anyone else. I'm a weak, pathetic human being who just happens to prefer to live my life in the least confrontational way possible, and with an empathy that's barely above nonexistent. Yes, I know that we humans are supposed to hold ourselves to some higher moral standard, but my moral standard begins with the fact that I'm not you, and I'm not God.

Thankfully I'm trying to keep this short in the hopes that it'll post. Otherwise my grasp on sanity would no doubt become extremely questionable.

 

[ViaCrucis]

FYI, I seem to be having problems posting at the moment, so I'm going to try to keep this short and hope that it works.



Although I sincerely admire your compassion when it comes to the mother, I have to disagree with you somewhat when it comes to the rich man, because I don't condemn him either. Each of us is destined to live our lives under circumstances that are ours and ours alone, and it isn't for me to say that I'm somehow better than anyone else... because I'm not anyone else. I'm a weak, pathetic human being who just happens to prefer to live my life in the least confrontational way possible, and with an empathy that's barely above nonexistent. Yes, I know that we humans are supposed to hold ourselves to some higher moral standard, but my moral standard begins with the fact that I'm not you, and I'm not God.

Thankfully I'm trying to keep this short in the hopes that it'll post. Otherwise my grasp on sanity would no doubt become extremely questionable.

When does this simply become apathy? If I see someone murder your loved ones, do I say "Well, I'm not better than that murderer" and then just pretend like that's okay?

There's "Do not judge" and then there's moral apathy.

 

[partinobodycular]

When does this simply become apathy? If I see someone murder your loved ones, do I say "Well, I'm not better than that murderer" and then just pretend like that's okay?

There's "Do not judge" and then there's moral apathy.

I'm sorry that it's taken me so long to respond to your post. I saw it not long after you posted it, and I wanted so badly to respond to it because it's exactly the type of thing that I would wonder about... and probably did for quite some time. But my day has been rather hectic and I just couldn't find the time. So now I'm staying up late to answer it, which means that my response might not be as clear or as eloquent as your question deserves. But here goes.

When we're young we're often overcome by the cruelty of the world. When we see a lion kill a baby gazelle, or a crocodile slowly drown a zebra, we have this overwhelming desire to want to do something, but we can't. That's empathy, and I would never want anyone to lose one iota of that.

But then inevitably someone older and wiser than us will point out that that's just a lion being a lion. He's struggling just as hard to survive as the gazelle is. In our naive eyes he's the villain, but he's only doing what we're all doing... trying to survive. When we're young it's easy to have empathy for the gazelle, and it's only as we get older that we learn to have empathy for the lion.

My point is, that having empathy for the lion doesn't negate our empathy for the gazelle. It doesn't make the cruelty go away... and it doesn't make the senselessness of the suffering go away. It only serves to temper the outrage with compassion.

It isn't that we're not to judge. It's simply that we're meant to do so with humility... for if we who haven't walked in their shoes somehow think that we're better than them it's only because of the grace of God, and the mercy we deserve is only as great as the mercy we give.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm sorry that it's taken me so long to respond to your post. I saw it not long after you posted it, and I wanted so badly to respond to it because it's exactly the type of thing that I would wonder about... and probably did for quite some time. But my day has been rather hectic and I just couldn't find the time. So now I'm staying up late to answer it, which means that my response might not be as clear or as eloquent as your question deserves. But here goes.

When we're young we're often overcome by the cruelty of the world. When we see a lion kill a baby gazelle, or a crocodile slowly drown a zebra, we have this overwhelming desire to want to do something, but we can't. That's empathy, and I would never want anyone to lose one iota of that.

But then inevitably someone older and wiser than us will point out that that's just a lion being a lion. He's struggling just as hard to survive as the gazelle is. In our naive eyes he's the villain, but he's only doing what we're all doing... trying to survive. When we're young it's easy to have empathy for the gazelle, and it's only as we get older that we learn to have empathy for the lion.

My point is, that having empathy for the lion doesn't negate our empathy for the gazelle. It doesn't make the cruelty go away... and it doesn't make the senselessness of the suffering go away. It only serves to temper the outrage with compassion.

It isn't that we're not to judge. It's simply that we're meant to do so with humility... for if we who haven't walked in their shoes somehow think that we're better than them it's only because of the grace of God, and the mercy we deserve is only as great as the mercy we give.

The lion that hunts the gazelle does so because the lion is an obligate carnivore and cannot survive in the world without hunting and eating meat.

There is no obligation of nature in the act of cold-blooded murder. A man who breaks into someone's home and murders a family is not surviving, or acting out of biological necessity.

 

[timothyu]

not surviving, or acting out of biological necessity.

Right. Not circle of life but simple self-serving greed.

 

[partinobodycular]

Right. Not circle of life but simple self-serving greed.

Methinks that you're confusing normal social behavior with greed.