Boston-area pastor refuses to remove anti-ICE Nativity scene, seeks meeting with archbishop

[Valletta]

Just a little thing here I'd like to point out.

When I put down numbers and percentages, I bring sources.

I don't frankly, believe any of this on spec. ICE lies and there are all kinda places where these lies are spread

Who told you ICE lies? Were any of those sources the same ones that told you the border was safe, secure, and closed? What you can do if you doubt ICE is file a Freedom of Information Act request for the documentation. Individuals can do this, media organizations can do this.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Who told you ICE lies?

The United States Supreme Court.

See Frazier v. Cupp (1969)

A law enforcement officer has wide latitude to lie about almost anything while interacting with a member of the public, so long as it's not coercive (wherever that line is) and so long as it doesn't trick a suspect into surrendering their rights.

If you are dealing with people (like any local, state or federal law enforcement officer) who can lie with impunity, the only rational way to deal with them is to assume that are always lying.

Because they almost always are.

See the Reid technique on the subject.

Best free advice you'll ever get from me: Never. Talk. To. A. Cop. Without. a. Lawyer. EVER.

And, as someone who has had some, um, experience with ICE. They lie a lot:

"If you continue to video me I'll arrest you for obstruction" (obstruction how? - they never say)
"Stop following us or I'll arrest you for....." (I'm a citizen ICE man you have no jurisdiction over me)
"We have a warrant for XXX YYYY and want him to come out so we can arrest him (Shows me a "warrant" that looks like they found it at the bottom of a box of cracker jacks)

I'll stop now.

Sorry. I get worked up on the subject.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

So this thread goes to show how many are actually focusing on the Nativity versus divisive political messaging. People often put their politics ahead of the Faith.

Agreed. However, I don’t like my savior politicized by EITHER side. It makes me uncomfortable.

My opinion only.

I can see where you’d think that this is political.

Given the board were on
AND
The parties you’re trading posts with
AND
The general state of things in America

But I’d submit this isn’t political messaging, it’s moral messaging.

(hang with me – I’m going to get there as quickly and sufficiently as possible)

The Nativity scene is an instant in time but it tells a larger story. We have the Holy Family, some shepherds, and some rich Zoroastrian types in a barn because our savior (at the moment at least) was homeless.

In itself it says a lot. But let’s just let the narrative run forward two days, two weeks, two months...(who knows, and it’s not clear).

The Shepherds are in the fields. Joseph and Mary are getting used to being parents, and the Zoroastrians have hit the Silk Road back to Persia. Without meeting King Herod, whom the met coming into Israel and to whom the told the tale of why they were made the trip. Herod, being Herod, decided to kill every male child under two in order to kill Jesus.

At this point, an angel showed up and told Joseph to blow town fast. Joseph, being Joseph, hit the ground running and didn’t stop until they hit Egypt.

That was a trip. A serious trip. Judea to the eastern border of the Sinai. The Romans held Sinai in 4 BC. A hostile, oppressive, occupying power. Egypt was Rome’s only real threat in the West Med as Egypt was a SERIOUS regional power in its own right.

The Egypt/Roman border in Sinai was likely pretty fortified. I don’t know what Egypt’s immigration policy was in 4 BC or what story Joseph told to some nameless, forgotten immigration agent at the border, but Egypt let the in.

Why was the Holy Family in Egypt? They were refugees from the Israeli king, who wanted to kill them.
How long did they want to say? Until the King died (which sounds to me a lot like “until the regime changes”)

That’s an open-ended request to become what is, from Egypt’s point of view, a political refugee in Egypt.


Not to put too fine a point it, but…..

If the Holy Family had to cross the Rio Grande to get away from Herod in a hurry, they would have faced a pause on immigration visas, razor wire on floats in the river, and possible deportation to someplace they didn’t actually come from, likely to be badly abused.

Because that’s what ICE is doing, in our name, currently.

The morality of that is something to consider in this somewhat dark and unsettling holiday season. And, we should be considering it.

So reminding us the Christ was a political refugee during this particular Christmas season and that what might occur if Christ were born toady isn't necessarily Dems vs. GOP.

It's us vs. our own failings.

 

[Valletta]

The United States Supreme Court.

See Frazier v. Cupp (1969)

A law enforcement officer has wide latitude to lie about almost anything while interacting with a member of the public, so long as it's not coercive (wherever that line is) and so long as it doesn't trick a suspect into surrendering their rights.

If you are dealing with people (like any local, state or federal law enforcement officer) who can lie with impunity, the only rational way to deal with them is to assume that are always lying.

Because they almost always are.

See the Reid technique on the subject.

Best free advice you'll ever get from me: Never. Talk. To. A. Cop. Without. a. Lawyer. EVER.

And, as someone who has had some, um, experience with ICE. They lie a lot:

"If you continue to video me I'll arrest you for obstruction" (obstruction how? - they never say)
"Stop following us or I'll arrest you for....." (I'm a citizen ICE man you have no jurisdiction over me)
"We have a warrant for XXX YYYY and want him to come out so we can arrest him (Shows me a "warrant" that looks like they found it at the bottom of a box of cracker jacks)

I'll stop now.

Sorry. I get worked up on the subject.

What police and or cannot say during an interrogation is ruled by law, laws passed by liberals and conservatives, members of Congress voted in in democratic elections by the citizens of the United States. The court in that case properly ruled that during an interrogation a suspect cannot be coerced. If you have suggestions as to how you want the law changed by all means talk to your elected representatives or their offices. I've met with staff and also personally met with my Congresswoman on a number of occasions as well as my senators. That being said, it does not follow that the head of ICE will lie about statistics.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

What police and or cannot say during an interrogation is ruled by law, laws passed by liberals and conservatives, members of Congress voted in in democratic elections by the citizens of the United States. The court in that case properly ruled that during an interrogation a suspect cannot be coerced. If you have suggestions as to how you want the law changed by all means talk to your elected representatives or their offices. I've met with staff and also personally met with my Congresswoman on a number of occasions as well as my senators. That being said, it does not follow that the head of ICE will lie about statistics.

If Ton Homan has stats to show, he’d show them

short of that I assume he’s a lying lair

 

[Valletta]

If Ton Homan has stats to show, he’d show them

short of that I assume he’s a lying lair

Don't you realize you were lied to by high ranking Democrat officials when they claimed the border was safe, secure, and closed? Tom has been announcing the numbers over these months. If that doesn't satisfy you and you want specific records then you have the right to ask for documents, you can make a formal request through a Freedom of Information Act request. I don't know specifically what you want, perhaps the reports coming in from the states, you have to accurately describe what you want. You can see they were receiving roughly 83,000 requests each month. Here is the link:

Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) | Homeland Security

Search Available Records, How to Make FOIA Requests, Submit a FOIA Request, Check Status of Request, and information on FOIA Policy & Compliance.

www.dhs.gov