• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Ellen White on the mark of the beast for those that worship on Sunday

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
964
266
65
Boonsboro
✟101,856.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus and this is what Jesus said if we love Him- keep His commandments and not to

Mat5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; (not there Mat5:20) but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And then goes on to relate what the is the central issue, mans heart. Why He wrote His Laws in our hearts, 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10, if we do not rebel Rom8:7-8 If the heart is changed, the thoughts of anger and contempt towards our brother would change towards compassion and love and the commandment to not murder our brother in the Ten Commandments would automatically be kept, just like the rest of the 9 commandments, not to break or teach others to break the least of these as they are how God relates how to love and worship Him by the first 4 commandments, why His name is in each one of these commandments and how we love our neighbor. Rom13:9
Thank you for grounding your point in Jesus’ own words. I agree that Christ is deeply concerned with the heart, which is why the law must be written on our hearts and not merely observed outwardly (Jer 31:33; Heb 8:10).


That emphasis on the heart, however, also highlights the difficulty of reading the Ten Commandments in a strictly legalistic or external way. Even commandments that seem straightforward require interpretation. For example, “You shall not make for yourself a carved image” (Exod 20:4) has raised longstanding questions: does it forbid all religious imagery, or the worship of images as gods? Scripture itself shows God commanding symbolic images in certain contexts (Exod 25:18–22; Num 21:8–9), which means the commandment cannot be applied woodenly without discernment. Jesus consistently presses the law beyond external compliance to its deeper intent (Matt 5:21–28).


This is especially relevant when we come to the Sabbath. Jesus does not deny the goodness of the Sabbath, but He reorients it around Himself: “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27–28). Hebrews develops this further by pointing to a deeper rest that the Sabbath anticipates—a rest found not in a calendar day, but in Christ Himself: “For whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from His” (Heb 4:9–10). Paul likewise cautions against using days as a measure of spiritual standing: “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath” (Col 2:16).


If the law is written on our hearts, as you rightly note (2 Cor 3:3; Rom 13:9), then obedience flows from union with Christ rather than from rule-keeping as a boundary marker. In that light, Sabbath-keeping may point us to the rest we have in Christ rather than serve as a test of whose faith is more genuine. As Paul says, “One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind” (Rom 14:5).


We can affirm the goodness of God’s commands while also affirming that Christ Himself is their fulfillment (Matt 5:17) and that our righteousness before God rests not in how precisely we keep them, but in the One who kept them perfectly on our behalf (Rom 10:4; 2 Cor 5:21).
This is what we are told about Paul's writings

2 Peter3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

So we can't take Paul's writings from a surface level and twist what Paul said to make him counter the written Testimony and word of God Exo31:18 when God promised not to change His words Psa89:34 Deut4:13, not a jot or tittle Mat5:18 and where Jesus in His own words said the Sabbath would not end at the Cross Mat24:20 or ever Isa66:22-23 we need be more careful otherwise, we might end up in the group this warning is about.

Romans 14 never uses the word Sabbath in the entire chapter and do you believe the Testimony of God written by the Holy Spirit of Truth, His Word is a doubtful disputation? Its says plainly what day man esteems over another, not what day GOD does and said plainly, the seventh is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo20:10, the holy day of the Lord Isa58:13. Today some men esteem Christmas as a holy day, some men do not, the same with Easter, this is the type of thing they are debating, not if one should keep or not keep one of God's commandments. Why we are plainly told not to add our word to His. Pro30:6 which fits the warning about misinterpreting Paul.

Re:Col2:16 there is more than one Sabbath in the Scripture, one came before sin Exo20:11, was part of God's perfect plan before the fall and is part of God's written and spoken Testimony Exo31:18, the other sabbath(s) came after sin and is about food offerings, drink offerings, some were holy days (annual feast days) and some were also annual sabbath(s) the context of this passage and what Jesus promised to put an end to Dan9:27as they are shadows pointing to His great Sacrifice Heb10:1-15 I can provide a very detailed study on this bringing in more context that was left out if you want. Its my own prayerful study and its clearly not speaking of the Testimony of God and countermanding what Jesus said about His Sabbath that Paul himself kept every Sabbath decades after the cross.


And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

He is speaking of when man was made.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

He is showing authority as our Creator.

Man was made on the sixth day in the image of God. Gen1:26 the Sabbath was made on the seventh day Gen2:1-13 Exo20:11 made for man and the Greek word Jesus used in mankind the Hebrew word Adam

ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos)


τὸ σάββατον διὰ τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἐγένετο

“The Sabbath was made for man …”


Meaning:
  • Refers to human beings in general
  • Gender-inclusive: humanity, humankind
  • Emphasizes mankind as a class, not an individual male

Hebrew: אָדָם ’ādām

  1. Adam (the individual)
    • Proper name in Genesis 2–5
    • “And the LORD God formed Adam…” (Gen 2:7)
  2. Man / human being
    • A representative human
    • “What is man (אָדָם) that you are mindful of him?” (Ps 8:4)
  3. Mankind / humanity
    • Collective sense
    • “God created man (אָדָם) in his own image” (Gen 1:27)

Jesus said they were guiltless of the accusation from the Pharisees. Not that we can break the Sabbath commandment- you are taking liberties that only God has. And showing mercy is not the same as breaking them continually, you are adding what is not there to the Scriptures. The example of the adulterous women Jesus showed grace to her but what did He say after-go and Sin NO MORE! and continuing in this path we are told what one has to look forward to Pro28:13 Heb10:26-30

None of these passages answer the question you asked, that we can be disobedient to one of God's commandments and be saved. You again are taking liberties only God has.

God did tell us this plainly..... why almost an entire nation did not enter into their Promise Land of rest.

Eze20:15 So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands, 16 because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols.

Does God really love us more than those who came before us? And from the mouth of God, not keeping the Sabbath shows there is a bigger issue- the heart. Replacing what God said our Father, with words of another why He related it to going after idols- breaking one comamndment we break them all even in the NT James2:11

Why we are told not to follow their same path of disobedience Heb4:11

Your words, not what the Scriptures teach. There is no Scripture that contrasts one of God's commandments as if its of no effect. Jesus already addressed this plainly, in doing so makes the word of God that comes with life and promises of no effect.

And our response back to Him because of this love is this, because its easy to say Lord Lord, but God is looking for a people of faith, to hear His sayings and do them.

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was [j]founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it [k]fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

Only one group hears these words

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
This was a thoughtful and passionate engagement with Scripture. I agree that God’s Word does not contradict itself and that obedience matters. Where I respectfully disagree is in how obedience—particularly Sabbath observance—is being used as a measure of saving faith and how Paul’s writings are being framed.


First, appealing to 2 Peter 3:15–16 to caution against “twisting Paul” cannot at the same time function to dismiss Paul’s plain teaching when it challenges our conclusions. Peter does not say Paul is unclear in principle, but that some distort him. Paul’s letters are called “Scripture” in the same breath, meaning they interpret—not oppose—God’s earlier revelation. To suggest that Paul cannot mean what he clearly says in passages like Romans 3:20–28; 4:4–5; 7:6; Galatians 3:10–14; Colossians 2:16 risks the very error the warning is meant to prevent.


Second, the argument that Romans 14 cannot apply because the word “Sabbath” is not used is a logical fallacy. Paul also does not use the word “circumcision” in that chapter, yet the entire epistle addresses how law-keeping functions in the life of believers. Paul’s point is explicit: days are not to be used as grounds for judgment among Christians (Rom 14:4–6). This is reinforced elsewhere: “Let no one pass judgment on you… with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath” (Col 2:16). The text does not require the Sabbath to be “ceremonial” to make Paul’s point; it requires only that Sabbath-keeping not function as a boundary marker of righteousness.


Third, while it is true that the Sabbath predates Sinai (Gen 2:1–3), it does not follow that its Mosaic form is binding in the same way under the new covenant. Jesus does not merely affirm the Sabbath; He redefines it around Himself: “The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27–28). Hebrews explicitly locates the ultimate Sabbath rest not in a day, but in a Person: “We who have believed enter that rest” (Heb 4:3, 9–10). To insist that the shadow must be kept in the same form after the substance has come misunderstands fulfillment (Matt 5:17; Col 2:17).


Fourth, repeatedly framing the question as “Can we disobey and be saved?” is a false dilemma. The gospel does not teach salvation by disobedience, but salvation apart from law-keeping as a basis of justification. Scripture is unequivocal: “By works of the law no human being will be justified” (Rom 3:20). If Sabbath-keeping is required for salvation, then salvation is no longer by grace (Gal 2:21; 5:4). This is precisely why Paul says the law, though holy and good, cannot give life (Rom 7:10; Gal 3:21).


Finally, passages like Luke 6:46 and Revelation 22:14 rightly emphasize obedience, but they must be read in harmony with the rest of Scripture. Jesus’ call to “do what I say” flows from union with Him, not from self-generated law-keeping (John 15:4–5). The same Bible that calls believers to obedience also says our righteousness is received, not achieved: “For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor 5:21). Even our obedience is God’s work in us (Phil 2:13).


In short, Christians may honor the Sabbath out of conviction and love for God—but Scripture does not permit us to use Sabbath observance as a test of genuine faith or a condition of salvation. Our confidence before God rests not in the day we keep, but in the Savior who kept the law perfectly on our behalf (Rom 10:4; Gal 3:13; Phil 3:8–9).
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,800
5,880
USA
✟762,171.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Second, the argument that Romans 14 cannot apply because the word “Sabbath” is not used is a logical fallacy.
No its not, if God was going to get rid of one of His commandments that He wrote and spoke, He would say so just as plainly as He gave it, The context of this passage is doubtful disputations. Rom14:1

When did the word of God and commandment of God, God's own written and spoke Testimony ever become a doubtable disputation for God's people. Please read your Bible you will find this is not so. Adding the Sabbath to this passage, when Paul did not, is adding to God's Word, something we are told plainly not to.

Paul came after Jesus ratified His covenant, nothing can be changed to it, it would make His great sacrifice of no effect and His sacrifice was once and for all Heb10:10. Paul did not come to change God's times and laws Dan7:25 and its sad what people have done to his teachings. Paul does not countermand what Jesus says. Jesus said His Sabbath would be kept after His Cross Mat24:20 and for eternity Isa66:22-23 so no words of Paul or anyone else can countermand the words of Jesus. You are making the servant greater than the Master John 13:16 when Paul said he wasn't in this very letter Rom1:1

In short, Christians may honor the Sabbath out of conviction and love for God—but Scripture does not permit us to use Sabbath observance as a test of genuine faith or a condition of salvation. Our confidence before God rests not in the day we keep, but in the Savior who kept the law perfectly on our behalf (Rom 10:4; Gal 3:13; Phil 3:8–9).

Your words, not what any of these verses you quoted says. God can test man anyway He chooses. He does not need our permission. He tested those in the wilderness that came before us Heb3:7-19 and they did not enter over this same reason you claim we no longer need to be bothered with Eze20:15-16 when we are told plainly not to follow in their path of disobedience Heb4:11 God really tells us everything, but will we hear Him.

There is no Scripture that says we can disobey God and be saved without repenting and turning from sin. Heb10:26-30 Pro28:13. The issue is not God’s holy laws Psa19:7 Romm7:12, it’s the hardened heart of man. Heb3:7-19 who will not subject themselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
37,846
5,436
On the bus to Heaven
✟172,284.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No its not, if God was going to get rid of one of His commandments that He wrote and spoke, he would say so just as plainly as He gave it, The context of this passage is doubtful disputations. Rom14:1
Or He merely gave us a new covenant that does not include it. Secondly He does tell us here:

“Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord, even of the Sabbath.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭2‬:‭27‬-‭28‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Jesus is now the Lord of the sabbath and our Christian rest.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,800
5,880
USA
✟762,171.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Or He merely gave us a new covenant that does not include it. Secondly He does tell us here:
He said He wrote His Laws in our heart and minds Heb8:10 which only God can define His law Exo20:6.
“Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord, even of the Sabbath.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭2‬:‭27‬-‭28‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
Jesus claiming ownership of the Sabbath and saying who He made it for, mankind, is not an example of Him getting rid of it, when He already said He was not Mat24:20 ever Isa66:22-23
Jesus is now the Lord of the sabbath
He has always been Lord of the Sabbath because it points to Him as our Creator and everything else Exo20:11 it is His holy day Isa58:13 the only one He claimed in the entire Bible, not the one man assigned to Him He said was for works and labors Exo20:9
and our Christian rest.
We rest in Jesus and those who do also cease from their works Heb4:10 on the seventh day Heb4:4 Exo20:11 because the seventh day IS the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo20:10 My holy day thus saith the Lord Isa58:13 and the Sabbath rest is according to the comamndment Luke23:56 because God's people keep God's commandments Rev14:12- His version, not the edited version of the Testimony of God as if man can speak and edit God when He clearly said not to Pro30:6

I won't continue debating this with you, because there is no point, we have both set in our beliefs. God will sort this out in His own time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,800
5,880
USA
✟762,171.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The question was whether a Sabbath keeper has more genuine faith than a believer who worships on Sunday. That is a question about the nature of saving faith, not about the authority of Scripture.
How can one separate God's saving faith from the authority of what God says, is not found in our Bibles. This is saying faith leads one away from the authority of God's Word or law, which is the opposite of faith Rom3:31 and something we are warned about Isa8:20. We are told it is unbelief, sin and rebellion Heb3:7-19

Jesus addressed traditions verses the commandments of God. Mark 7:7-13 Mat15:3-14. He said those who keep their traditions over the commandments of God makes the word of God no effect, their hearts far from Him, worships Him in vain and those who teach and follow these teachings ends up in a ditch.

Considering Sunday is not a commandment of God, it does not come with the power of God's blessings Isa59:2 Exo20:11 and sanctification Eze20:12 Gen2:3, it is a tradition of man that leads many people away from staying faithful to what God said to Remember Exo20:8-11 I think Jesus addressed this scenario plainly.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
37,846
5,436
On the bus to Heaven
✟172,284.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
He said He wrote His Laws in our heart and minds Heb8:10 which only God can define His law Exo20:6.
His laws are the two love commandments.

Exodus 20 does not apply to the new covenant.
Jesus claiming ownership of the Sabbath and saying who He made it for, mankind, is not an example of Him getting rid of it, when He already said He was not Mat24:20 ever Isa66:22-23
He did not get rid of it but merely completed it. He fulfilled it and declared Himself Lord if the sabbath. It’s really that simple.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,800
5,880
USA
✟762,171.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Jesus quoted OT to define the greatest commandments Deut6:5 Lev19:18 as if we are God to tell God how to love Him or how to love our neighbor. The apostles certainly did not take these liberties that only belong to God quoting from Exo20 Rom13:9 as what Jesus was quoting Deut6:5 after the Ten Commandments was repeated.
 
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
964
266
65
Boonsboro
✟101,856.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How can one separate God's saving faith from the authority of what God says, is not found in our Bibles. This is saying faith leads one away from the authority of God's Word or law, which is the opposite of faith Rom3:31. We are told it is unbelief, sin and rebellion Heb3:7-19

Jesus addressed traditions verses the commandments of God. Mark 7:7-13 Mat15:3-14. He said those who keep their traditions over the commandments of God makes the word of God no effect, worships Him in vain and those who teach and follow these teachings ends up in a ditch.

Considering Sunday is not a commandment of God, it does not come with the power of God's blessings Isa59:2 Exo20:11 and sanctification Eze20:12 Gen2:3, it is a tradition of man that leads many people away from staying faithful to what God said to Remember Exo20:8-11 I think Jesus addressed this scenario plainly.
I agree with you on an essential point: saving faith never leads away from the authority of God’s Word. The question, however, is how God’s Word says the law functions in relation to saving faith under the new covenant.

Romans 3:31 does not teach that faith re-establishes the law as the basis of righteousness or covenant identity. In the flow of Romans, Paul has just concluded that “by works of the law no human being will be justified” (Rom 3:20) and that righteousness comes “apart from the law” through faith in Christ (Rom 3:21–28). When Paul says, “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law,” he means that the law’s true purpose is fulfilled, not reinstated as a standard by which believers are justified. This is exactly how Paul later explains it: “Christ is the end (telos—goal/fulfillment) of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom 10:4). Faith upholds the law by affirming its verdict—that all have sinned—and by receiving the righteousness the law itself could never provide (Rom 8:3–4).

Regarding tradition, Jesus indeed condemned elevating human traditions over God’s commands (Mark 7:7–13). But this warning cuts both ways. The Pharisees were the most rigorous Sabbath-keepers in Israel, and yet they repeatedly condemned Jesus for not keeping the Sabbath according to their interpretation (Mark 2:23–28; 3:1–6; John 5:16–18; 9:14–16). Their error was not ignoring the Sabbath, but turning it into a legal boundary marker that obscured mercy, life, and ultimately Christ Himself. Jesus’ response was not to tighten Sabbath rules, but to assert His authority over it: “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28).

This shows an important reality: even Sabbath observance can become a commandment of men when its meaning, limits, and application are defined in ways Scripture itself does not require. The New Testament repeatedly warns against binding consciences where God has not (Rom 14:4–6; Gal 5:1; Col 2:16–23). Paul’s concern is not that people rest or worship, but that such observances are used to judge faithfulness or secure righteousness—something Scripture reserves for Christ alone.

Finally, the issue is not whether Sunday is a commandment, but whether any day is permitted to function as a test of saving faith. The New Testament answer is clear: “One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind” (Rom 14:5). This freedom does not negate obedience; it locates obedience where the gospel does—in union with Christ. The true blessing and sanctification promised by God are found not in a calendar observance, but in the One to whom the Sabbath itself points (Heb 4:9–10; Matt 11:28–30).

In short, faith does not overthrow God’s law—but neither does it place believers back under it as a covenant of righteousness. The law bears witness to Christ; Christ fulfills the law; and believers rest in Him. That is not unbelief or rebellion—it is the very heart of the gospel (Gal 2:21; Phil 3:8–9; 2 Cor 5:21).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hentenza
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
37,846
5,436
On the bus to Heaven
✟172,284.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Jesus quoted OT to define the greatest commandments Deut6:5 Lev19:18 as if we are God to tell God how to love Him or how to love our neighbor. The apostles certainly did not take these liberties that only belong to God quoting from Exo20 Rom13:9 as what Jesus was quoting Deut6:5 after the Ten Commandments was repeated.
Show a verse where the 4th commandment was repeated into Jesus two love commandments?
 
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
964
266
65
Boonsboro
✟101,856.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No its not, if God was going to get rid of one of His commandments that He wrote and spoke, He would say so just as plainly as He gave it, The context of this passage is doubtful disputations. Rom14:1

When did the word of God and commandment of God, God's own written and spoke Testimony ever become a doubtable disputation for God's people. Read your Bible you will find this is not so. Add the Sabbath to this when Paul did not is adding to God's Word, something we are told plainly not to.

Paul came after Jesus ratified His covenant, nothing can be changed to it, it would make His great sacrifice of no effect and His sacrifice was once and for all Heb10:10. Paul did not come to change God's times and laws Dan7:25 and its sad what people have done to his teachings. Paul does not countermand what Jesus says. Jesus said His Sabbath would be kept after His Cross Mat24:20 and for eternity Isa66:22-23 so no words of Paul or anyone else can countermand the words of Jesus. You are making the servant greater than the Master John 13:16 when Paul said he wasn't in this very letter Rom1:1



Your words, not what any of these verses you quoted says. God can test man anyway He chooses. He does not need our permission. He tested those in the wilderness that came before us Heb3:7-19 and they did not enter over this same reason you claim we no longer need to be bothered with Eze20:15-16 when we are told plainly not to follow in their path of disobedience Heb4:11

There is no Scripture that says we can disobey God and be saved without repenting and turning from sin. Heb10:26-30 Pro28:13
Thank you for clarifying your concern. I agree with you on an important starting point: God did not “get rid of” any of His commandments. Scripture never says that. What it does say—repeatedly—is that God fulfilled them in Christ.

Jesus Himself frames the issue this way: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matt 5:17). Fulfillment is not destruction, but neither is it continued covenant obligation in the same form. Paul says the same thing in different words: “Christ is the end (telos—goal, fulfillment) of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom 10:4).

This is why Romans does not teach that believers remain under the law, even while affirming its goodness. Paul is explicit: “You are not under law but under grace” (Rom 6:14), and again, “Now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive” (Rom 7:6). To be under the law means being obligated to keep all of it as a covenant of righteousness (Gal 5:3; James 2:10). To be under Christ means obeying Him—not to be justified, but because we already are (John 14:15; Gal 2:20).

This distinction is crucial. Obedience under the law seeks life; obedience under Christ flows from life. Paul says plainly that if righteousness comes through the law, “then Christ died for no purpose” (Gal 2:21). That is not diminishing obedience—it is protecting the sufficiency of the cross.

Regarding Romans 14, Paul does not call God’s Word doubtful. He calls judging one another over observances doubtful disputations (Rom 14:1, 4). The issue is not whether a day can be kept “to the Lord”—Paul explicitly affirms that it can (Rom 14:6). The issue is whether such observance can be imposed as a measure of faithfulness or salvation. Scripture consistently answers no (Col 2:16; Gal 4:9–11).

Appealing to Matthew 24:20 and Isaiah 66 does not change this, because neither passage teaches Sabbath-keeping as a condition of justification. Jesus’ words in Matthew concern historical circumstances surrounding Jerusalem, not a reimposition of the Mosaic covenant as salvific. Isaiah 66, like much prophetic language, points to ultimate worship of the Lord—not the re-establishment of Sinai as a covenant of righteousness (Heb 12:18–24).

Finally, you are right that repentance matters. No one is arguing that one who persists in sin is saved (Rom 6:1–2; Heb 10:26). The question is whether failing to observe a specific day constitutes covenant-breaking sin under the new covenant. Paul’s consistent answer is that sin is lawlessness against Christ (1 Cor 9:20–21), not failure to keep Israel’s covenant signs.

So we agree on this much:
• God’s commandments are holy and good (Rom 7:12).
• Obedience matters because it flows from love which comes through salvation (John 14:15).
• A believer may keep a day to the Lord as an act of love (Rom 14:6).

Where we differ is here: if any day—Sabbath included—is treated as salvific or as a test of genuine faith, then Christ’s obedience and sacrifice are no longer sufficient in practice, even if affirmed in words (Gal 5:4; Phil 3:8–9).

The gospel is not that the law was erased, but that it was satisfied. And our confidence before God rests not in the day we keep, but in the Savior who kept the law perfectly on our behalf (2 Cor 5:21; Heb 4:9–10).
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,800
5,880
USA
✟762,171.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for clarifying your concern. I agree with you on an important starting point: God did not “get rid of” any of His commandments. Scripture never says that. What it does say—repeatedly—is that God fulfilled them in Christ.
Jesus fulfilled the law, not destroyed Mat5:17 and fulfill does not mean because Christ fullfed the law we can now vain His name or break any of these commandments. Jesus addressed this plainly not addressed to Himself not to break, but to "whoever" which is everyone Mat5:19 not a jot or tittle Mat5:18 because no one is above our Lord and Savior and His own written and spoken Testimony. Exo31:18


Where we differ is here: if any day—Sabbath included—is treated as salvific or as a test of genuine faith, then Christ’s obedience and sacrifice are no longer sufficient in practice, even if affirmed in words (Gal 5:4; Phil 3:8–9).

So are you saying we can worship other gods and go after idols and that's an example of faith to God and being in a converted state, and we are saved in our sins? Can you show Scripture that says this? Revelation very clearly speaks of God’s people overcoming. God never treated the Sabbath commandment as different than any of the others, only than placing His seal for this entire document, in the 4th commandment Exo20:11. No one can break God's seal, because man is not God no matter how much they want their words to be the same or equal to His, it’s really a vain attempt. Why Jesus said its making the word of God of no effect, which includes all His blessings and promises Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 If people spent half their time they do arguing against keeping one of God's commandments, than just spending their energy in allowing God to be God because He is and doing what He asks, the world would be in a much better place.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
964
266
65
Boonsboro
✟101,856.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus fulfilled the law, not destroyed Mat5:17 and fulfill does not mean because Christ fullfed the law we can now vain His name or break any of these commandments. Jesus addressed this plainly not addressed to Himself not to break, but to "whoever" which is everyone Mat5:19 not a jot or tittle Mat5:18 because no one is above our Lord and Savior and His own written and spoken Testimony. Exo31:18
I agree completely that Jesus fulfilled the law and did not destroy it (Matt 5:17), but why would anyone set free from the law desire to sin? Where I think there is a misunderstanding is in the assumption that the law itself is the primary thing restraining believers from sin.

Scripture teaches something deeper. The people who come to Christ are not those looking for permission to sin, but those who long to be free from sin. Jesus Himself said, “Everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin… so if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed” (John 8:34–36). Freedom in Christ is freedom from sin’s dominion. If I am saved from drowning, am I going to throw myself back into the lake?

Paul makes this point repeatedly. The law can expose sin, but it cannot produce righteousness or obedience of the heart (Rom 3:20; 7:7–11). What actually changes us is union with Christ through the Spirit: “For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death” (Rom 8:2). This is why Paul can say both that the law is holy and good (Rom 7:12) and that believers are no longer under it as a covenant of righteousness (Rom 6:14).

Matthew 5:18–19 must also be read in light of what Jesus goes on to teach in that same sermon. He immediately moves the focus from external rule-keeping to the transformed heart—anger, lust, love of enemies—things the law commands but cannot create (Matt 5:21–48). Jesus is not teaching that life comes through stricter law-keeping, but that the law finds its true fulfillment in a heart remade by grace (Jer 31:33).

This is exactly what the new covenant promises: “I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts” (Heb 8:10). Obedience now flows from love, not fear of condemnation. As John says, “We love because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19), and again, “His commandments are not burdensome” to those born of God (1 John 5:3).

So the concern that grace leads to moral chaos misunderstands grace. Paul anticipated that objection and rejected it outright: “Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!” (Rom 6:1–2). Those united to Christ have died to sin and now live to God (Rom 6:11). They obey—not to earn life, but because they have received it.

In short, Christ’s fulfillment of the law does not produce rebellion; it produces willing obedience. The law may restrain behavior, but only Christ transforms the heart. And it is that transformed heart—set free by grace—that desires to obey Him truly (Gal 5:1, 13; John 14:15).
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,800
5,880
USA
✟762,171.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I agree completely that Jesus fulfilled the law and did not destroy it (Matt 5:17), but why would anyone set free from the law desire to sin? Where I think there is a misunderstanding is in the assumption that the law itself is the primary thing restraining believers from sin.

Scripture teaches something deeper. The people who come to Christ are not those looking for permission to sin, but those who long to be free from sin. Jesus Himself said, “Everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin… so if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed” (John 8:34–36). Freedom in Christ is freedom from sin’s dominion. If I am saved from drowning, am I going to throw myself back into the lake?

Paul makes this point repeatedly. The law can expose sin, but it cannot produce righteousness or obedience of the heart (Rom 3:20; 7:7–11). What actually changes us is union with Christ through the Spirit: “For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death” (Rom 8:2). This is why Paul can say both that the law is holy and good (Rom 7:12) and that believers are no longer under it as a covenant of righteousness (Rom 6:14).

Matthew 5:18–19 must also be read in light of what Jesus goes on to teach in that same sermon. He immediately moves the focus from external rule-keeping to the transformed heart—anger, lust, love of enemies—things the law commands but cannot create (Matt 5:21–48). Jesus is not teaching that life comes through stricter law-keeping, but that the law finds its true fulfillment in a heart remade by grace (Jer 31:33).

This is exactly what the new covenant promises: “I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts” (Heb 8:10). Obedience now flows from love, not fear of condemnation. As John says, “We love because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19), and again, “His commandments are not burdensome” to those born of God (1 John 5:3).

So the concern that grace leads to moral chaos misunderstands grace. Paul anticipated that objection and rejected it outright: “Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!” (Rom 6:1–2). Those united to Christ have died to sin and now live to God (Rom 6:11). They obey—not to earn life, but because they have received it.

In short, Christ’s fulfillment of the law does not produce rebellion; it produces willing obedience. The law may restrain behavior, but only Christ transforms the heart. And it is that transformed heart—set free by grace—that desires to obey Him truly (Gal 5:1, 13; John 14:15).
Jesus is focused on the heart of the matter, the harden heart of man, if the heart is changed, the least of these commandments would be kept as Jesus taught plainly Mat5:19, not changing a jot or tittle of His Law Mat5:18 because the law is not the issue Psa19:7 Rom7:12, the harden heart of man is.

Yes, Jesus is trying to free us from the bondage of sin, but that would mean keeping the law of God, not breaking the least of these commandments Mat 5:19 why its the law of liberty, free from sin James2:11-12 transformed through our love for Jesus and the Holy Spirit John14:15-18.

While I agree love is what transforms and obedience flows though the heart, yet you still teach it doesn’t matter if God said Remember on one of these commandments, its okay to forget what God said to Remember and keep Exo20:8-11 if we love Him. Exo20:6 John14:15. If your earthy father asked something that was important to him and said son, please remember this, would it be an act of love to forget it, or keep what he said in our heart and do. Why treat our Heavenly Father any different. Jesus certainly never taught we do not have to keep the Sabbath, He taught we can do evil on the Sabbath Mark3:4 not changing anything He said previously Isa 56:2 Neh 13:17 because God does not change. While I like a lot of what you say, Mat5:19 tells us not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and that would include the commandment God said Remember, that is holy and blessed by God, that no man can take away the Blessing of God, because man is not God.

It’s probably best for me to agree to disagree and all will get sorted out in God’s time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
964
266
65
Boonsboro
✟101,856.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus is focused on the heart of the matter, the harden heart of man, if the heart is changed, the least of these commandments would be kept as Jesus taught plainly Mat5:19, not changing a jot or tittle of His Law Mat5:18 because the law is not the issue Psa19:7 Rom7:12, the harden heart of man is.

Yes, Jesus is trying to free us from the bondage of sin, but that would mean keeping the law of God, not breaking the least of these commandments Mat 5:19 why its the law of liberty, free from sin James2:11-12 transformed through our love for Jesus and the Holy Spirit John14:15-18.
I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems to assume that those who understand the Sabbath as being fulfilled through resting in Christ are therefore disobeying God. I don’t believe that conclusion necessarily follows. Scripture teaches that our ultimate rest is found in Christ Himself (Hebrews 4:9–10), and many sincere believers seek to honor God from that place of faith and trust, not disregard for His commands.

When we apply the law in a strictly literal way without considering its fulfillment in Christ, we should also be careful to examine how consistently we apply it. For example, the second commandment warns against making images (Exodus 20:4–5), yet most of us recognize that the heart of this command is about idolatry rather than the mere presence of artwork. This reminds me that all of us depend on grace and must approach these discussions with humility.

This tension is not new. In the Gospels, the Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath because His disciples picked grain and because He healed on that day (Matthew 12:1–8; John 5:16–18). Jesus responded by showing that the Sabbath was given as a gift, not a burden, and that “the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27–28). His concern was always mercy, life, and faith, not legalistic rule-keeping.

My hope is that we can keep Christ at the center of this conversation, remembering that salvation and obedience flow from Him, not from our ability to perfectly interpret or apply the law (Galatians 2:16; John 15:5).

It’s important to remember that even among those who honor the Sabbath, there is a wonderful diversity in how it is observed. Some may focus on traditional practices, while others seek to rest in Christ and trust in His work for them. Both approaches, when done with sincere hearts, are ways of honoring God.


Keeping the Sabbath by resting in Christ is not inherently “less” faithful than other expressions—it’s simply another way of entering into the rest and renewal that God intends for His people (Hebrews 4:9–10). Our focus can be on encouraging one another in Christ, rather than measuring or comparing the forms of Sabbath observance.
While I agree love is what transforms and obedience flows though the heart, yet you still teach it doesn’t matter if God said Remember on one of these commandments, its okay to forget what God said to Remember and keep Exo20:8-11 if we love Him. Exo20:6 John14:15. If your earthy father asked something that was important to him and said son, please remember this, would it be an act of love to forget it, or keep what he said in our heart and do. Why treat our Heavenly Father any different. Jesus certainly never taught we do not have to keep the Sabbath, He taught we can do evil on the Sabbath Mark3:4 not changing anything He said previously Isa 56:2 Neh 13:17 because God does not change. While I like a lot of what you say, Mat5:19 tells us not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and that would include the commandment God said Remember, that is holy and blessed by God, that no man can take away the Blessing of God, because man is not God.

It’s probably best for me to agree to disagree and all will get sorted out in God’s time.
Disagreement in how we observe the Sabbath is not a problem as long as it is not accompanied by judgment. If you choose to refrain from certain activities on Saturday to honor God, that is truly a blessed thing. Likewise, if your neighbor begins the Sabbath a few hours earlier to align with Israel, doing so out of love for God, that is also pleasing to Him. And if someone else rests in Christ every day of the week, out of faith and devotion, who are we to label that as disobedience? God sees the heart, and it is the heart of faith and love that matters most (1 Samuel 16:7; Romans 14:5–6).

Anything we do for God out of obligation counts for nothing. Anything we do out of love for God counts for everything.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,800
5,880
USA
✟762,171.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems to assume that those who understand the Sabbath as being fulfilled through resting in Christ are therefore disobeying God. I don’t believe that conclusion necessarily follows. Scripture teaches that our ultimate rest is found in Christ Himself (Hebrews 4:9–10), and many sincere believers seek to honor God from that place of faith and trust, not disregard for His commands.
Heb 4:9-10 is not teaching that resting in Christ means we can break the Sabbath commandment, Its very much teaching the opposite, Those who rest in Christ also rest from their works Heb4:10 as God did, on the seventh day Heb4:4 Exo20:11 why the Sabbath rest remains (not changed) for the people of God Heb4:9NIV. The Sabbath rest is according to the commandment. Luke23:56 Exo20:8-11 just as God said Heb4:4 because there is no one greater than He. Man needs both physical rest from our works which God said to take on the seventh day, so we can keep His Sabbath day holy Exo20:8-11 and we need spiritual rest in Him Isa58:13 Isa56:6 they work in tandem, not against. Not keeping the Sabbath is what this passage is warning us about following the same example of disobedience Heb4:6 to those who came before us, and they too didn't think they needed to keep the Sabbath and it left them outside their promise land of rest Eze20:15-16 we are called not to follow in the same path of disobedience Heb4:11 if we hear His voice Heb3:7-19 so we can enter ours Rev22:14

In Christ rest no one is disobeying any of God's commandments including the 4th commandment, this is unrest and rebellion. In Christ rest there is just peace and waves of righteousness because one is doing the will of God Isa48:18 Psa40:8

Just like the commandment to not steal from our neighbor was fulfilled in Christ as He never once did so, or taught anyone else to do so, applies to all of the commandments for us to keep and not break the least of these as He said Mat5:19, not to change a jot or tittle like re-defining one of God's commandments, is changing God's unchangeable Testimony He said He would not. Exo31:18 Deut4:13 Psa89:34 Mat5:18-19 and it puts us in the place very much like those who came before us Eze20:16 because we are placing mans words above God's. God said Hallow My Sabbaths Eze20:20 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy Exo20:8-11 Blessed is the man who does this and keeps the Sabbath Isa56:2 keeping the Sabbath is a sign of My sanctification Eze20:12 everyone who keeps the Sabbath and holds fast my covenant to join ourselves to Him Isa56:6 so if we are not living by God's Words who words are we living by.
Anything we do for God out of obligation counts for nothing.
Where is this found in Scripture? Its our moral obligation to obey God, but we should do so because we love Him and want to obey Him, which would include the 4th commandment, the one God said Remember. We should do so even if we don't want to because its the right thing to do to obey God. Trust what He asks is perfect and will convert our soul Psa19:7 but hearing Him and not doing, is something Jesus warned about Luke6:46-48 James 1:22
Anything we do out of love for God counts for everything.
Love to God was never defined by our terms, but by God's Exo20:6 John14:15 1John5:3. Its like the person who gives you everything but what you ask, we can also do that to God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,887
29,568
Pacific Northwest
✟831,163.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Isa 56 the Lord answers this regarding the Sabbath and Gentiles and Mat2:27

Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,

And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Doing justice and righteousness is the foundation of God's Throne. Psa89:14

This is a prophecy by God

Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles)
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.


Jesus quotes from this very passage Mark 11:17 Mat 21:13

And all of God's predictions come true, why both Jew and Gentiles were keeping every Sabbath in God's house of prayer. Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 (part of the Jerusalem council for Gentiles) Acts18:4

Why the Sabbath continues in the New Heaven and New Earth, not any other day Isa66:22-23 for all flesh - God's saved Rev14:12


Gentiles do not need to be circumcised as the Scripture says, but all of God's people have to keep God's commandments (His version) Rev14:12- why Jesus said plainly "whoever" Mat5:19 Luke 6:46-48

Take a look again at Isaiah 56:6-7

Perhaps you missed it.

"Who join themselves to the LORD"
"Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath and holds fast My covenant"

In other words: Those who join the people of Israel. Converts to Judaism.

I don't feel I even have to bring up verse 7

"Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar;"

Was your argument that, as a Gentile, I should be giving burnt offerings? Is Christ's Sacrifice not sufficient? Must I now also offer sacrifices of goats and bulls? If this passage means I must observe the Sabbath as a Gentile Christian, then this passage also means I must offer burnt offerings. You don't get to have it both ways: That's either what it's saying, or it isn't.

I'd say this was a good attempt. But it wasn't. 0 Points.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,800
5,880
USA
✟762,171.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Take a look again at Isaiah 56:6-7

Perhaps you missed it.

"Who join themselves to the LORD"
"Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath and holds fast My covenant"

In other words: Those who join the people of Israel. Converts to Judaism.

I don't feel I even have to bring up verse 7

"Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar;"

Was your argument that, as a Gentile, I should be giving burnt offerings? Is Christ's Sacrifice not sufficient? Must I now also offer sacrifices of goats and bulls? If this passage means I must observe the Sabbath as a Gentile Christian, then this passage also means I must offer burnt offerings. You don't get to have it both ways: That's either what it's saying, or it isn't.

I'd say this was a good attempt. But it wasn't. 0 Points.
Keeping points on God's Word? I'll think I'll pass on that one.

But lets look at these verses more carefully. Before that some important points…

1. There is no Scripture that God's commandments are only for Jews. They belong to God and only He can tell you want His Laws are and He did. Not written by man, but written by the Holy Spirit. Exo31:18 and its illogical that God only wants Jews to worship Him and Gentiles are free to worship whoever, or Jews can't steal from their neighbor but Gentiles are free to do whatever they want. Jesus addressed this plainly when He said "whoever" breaks the least of these commandments and came with a pretty serious warning Mat5:19-30

2. A covenant is an agreement. God made a covenant with Israel who always represented "His son" Exo4:22 so it was never meant to be literal, but represented God's people. This is what God said about His covenant and the words Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. The words of the covenant, the "Ten Commandments" Exo34:28 Deut4:13 was never the issue Psa19:7 Rom7:12, the issue is mans harden heart, which is why God wrote an New Covenant because man broke the first one, it is still with Israel "His son" but now written in the heart- not changing the words of the covenant, which includes the Sabbath because God keeps His promises and why we see the Sabbath being kept by Jesus, the apostles, Jews and Gentiles in the NC just as Jesus predicted.

Lets look at this passage more carefully before dismissing it as it contains a lot of promises.

Note absent the word Jew. This is God speaking, He knows the difference between "man" and "jew" why He said the Sabbath was made for man. And the word He used means mankind. Do you really think God only wants to give blessings to Jews only? And He wants only Jews not to keep from doing evil by profaning the Sabbath which is a deeper problem Eze22:26 Eze20:16

Lets not add our words and ideas to what God said, its something we are told not to.

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles)
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant


This verse is clearly about:
Foreigners / Gentiles
Who join themselves to the LORD
Who keep His covenant


This verse cannot be more clear and it does not say only Jews who love and want to serve Him but EVERYONE who keeps from defiling the Sabbath and holds fast to My covenant that He promised not to alter the Words. To deny these plain Words by God is not going to do anyone favors because God wants to give His blessings Isa59:2 and sanctification Eze20:12 to everyone that join themselves to God because we can't sanctify or bless ourselves and we cannot separate God's blessings Exo20:11 Isa59:22 and sanctification Gen2:3 Eze20:12 from the seventh day Sabbath. Man cannot sanctify themselves Isa66:17 we need God Eze20:12


This passage is prophetic that God said to Isaiah its future- Jesus even quoted from it in the present tense.

Isa 56:7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,

This does not just mean Jerusalem, its where God dwells

Psalm 15:1
LORD, who may abide in Your tabernacle?
Who may dwell in Your holy hill?

And make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Jesus is speaking of His church and Jesus quotes from this passage in the present tense Mat 21:13 which says plainly its for prayer, not "sacrifices"

Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;


The earthy animal sacrifices ended at the Cross Heb10:1-10 The earthy temple was just a miniature temple that represents God's Temple in heaven. Heb8:1-5 Rev 15:5 Rev11:19 Sacrifices continues and are spiritual

Heb13:15 By Him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.
Rom 12:1Present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service
Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be set before You as incense, the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.
1 Peter 2:5 You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood,
to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ
Rev 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

This cannot be more clear- God's house of prayer is a house of prayer for all nations and what God predicts comes true and we see this clearly in the NT and continuing on forever

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.


8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him
.”

Everyone, who loves God and joins themselves to Him to serve Him and keeps His Sabbath, because God wants to bless and sanctify all men, He knows we need Him and can't do this ourselves.

And if you look later in Isaiah this is what the Lord prophesied- which always comes true

His house of prayer will be for All Nations and continues forever


Isa 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,

“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.


There is not any promises like this even close to Sunday because as a replacement for God's Sabbath commandment doesn't exist in our Bibles.. No promise of blessings, no promises of sanctification, no joining ourselves to Christ, no promise of a house of prayer for all nations, no promises period other than a day God made for work and labors Exo20:9, yes Jesus rose on the first day of the week, but never said one word about that changing any of His promises or transferring those to any other day, because its a man-made tradition competing with the God of the Bible blessings and promises and commandment. Because there is nothing that supports Sunday keeping in lieu of keeping one of God's commandments that God Himself Blessed, that no man can take away His blessing Num23:20 so instead, people spend their time attacking God's Sabbath repeatedly- what message are we sending God who said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, the Sabbath is My holy day Isa58:13 hallow My Sabbaths and it will be a sign between you and Me Eze20:20 when did God's words and Testimony not mean anything, isn't this the whole point of the Bible to find God? God Himself tells us how to join ourselves to Him Isa56:6 are we going to listen to Him on how we do this or another voice.

Don't let anyone cheat us from the promises of God in His holy word.

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone [a]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
964
266
65
Boonsboro
✟101,856.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Heb 4:9-10 is not teaching that resting in Christ means we can break the Sabbath commandment
You are talking past be by ignoring my points and jumping straight into your position staement. I believe your premise assumes the concluison and that is the unless a person is keeping the sabbath the way you believe they should then they are breaking it. Do you not see that this is what the pharasee's did with Christ. So instead of talking past it, tell me how abiding in Christ's rest is breaking the Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:9–10 teaches that a Sabbath-like rest remains for God’s people, defined as participation in God’s own rest through faith in Christ’s completed work. This rest involves the cessation of self-reliant striving and anticipates the final fulfillment of God’s purposes, while remaining genuinely available to believers in the present.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,800
5,880
USA
✟762,171.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You are talking past be by ignoring my points and jumping straight into your position staement. I believe your premise assumes the concluison and that is the unless a person is keeping the sabbath the way you believe they should then they are breaking it. Do you not see that this is what the pharasee's did with Christ. So instead of talking past it, tell me how abiding in Christ's rest is breaking the Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:9–10 teaches that a Sabbath-like rest remains for God’s people, defined as participation in God’s own rest through faith in Christ’s completed work. This rest involves the cessation of self-reliant striving and anticipates the final fulfillment of God’s purposes, while remaining genuinely available to believers in the present.
Hebrew 4 is quoting Old Testament. It has 5 OT references in a short passage. Without knowing and understanding these references one will come to the wrong conclusion of this passage.

God already promised He would not change the words of His covenant Psa 88:34 Deut 4:13 Isa 56:6 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18-so no Scriptures can say otherwise what God promised clearly He would not be altered. The author of Hebrews did not change God’s times and laws, that’s what He warned us about would happen but not by God. Dan7:25 Isa 8:20.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,887
29,568
Pacific Northwest
✟831,163.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
1. There is no Scripture that God's commandments are only for Jews.

The Torah was only for the Jewish people as part of the Covenant God established them at Mt. Horeb

Psalm 147:19-20

"He declares His word to Jacob,
His statutes and rules to Israel.
He has not dealt thus with any other nation;
they do not know His rules.
Hallelujah!
"
 
Upvote 0