Kirk Cameron Takes Heat for His Annihilationist View on Hell

[1Tonne]

I don't watch videos. The idea that everybody has eternal life by default is rubbish.

You should watch the video. It is only 20 odd minutes, and it explains where people who believe in annihilation go wrong. (Though I do not agree with everything he says in the vid, I still think he is pretty onto it and does very well with refuting annihilationism.)

Those who are sent to destruction do not get eternal life. They get eternal death.
I think the real difference between us is how we understand “death.” We actually agree that those sent to destruction do not receive eternal life. Where we differ is what eternal death means. Your view seems to treat death as a finality. When the body dies (the shell), this is a finality in the physical. So, your understanding of “eternal death” is understood as extinction, the person is gone forever.

My view is different. Scripture shows that when the body dies, it is not the end of the person. The spirit/soul continues but sleeps in the grave, unconscious, awaiting the resurrection (Eccl 9:5; Ps 146:4; John 5:28–29). Earthly death is therefore not final; it is temporary and preparatory.
Because death is not final in the first sense, I don’t see the second death as annihilation either. It is eternal death because it is eternal ruin, eternal separation, and eternal loss of life with God, not because the person ceases to exist. Death, biblically, can be an ongoing state of ruin, not merely a moment where something stops existing.

So yes, the wicked do not receive eternal life. They receive eternal ongoing death/ruin. Eternal death is not non-existence; it is the eternal opposite of life with God.
That’s the core difference in how we’re reading the texts.

 

[JulieB67]

So yes, the wicked do not receive eternal life. They receive eternal ongoing death

Can't you honestly see that makes no sense? You are basically stating they receive eternal life but only in a different place. You can spin it however but that is basically what you are stating. You continue to use the second meaning of the word apollumi although many verses like Matthew 10:28 dictates that we should use the first meaning "destroy fully". So no, there is no ongoing death.

And death and hell are going to be thrown into the lake of fire. There will be no more death after that.

And this will eventually happen-

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

He doesn't state there shall be no more death other than those suffering an ongoing death in the Lake of Fire. He states "there shall be no more death". The former things are passed away. The lake of fire is a "former thing". He makes "all' things new.

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

Scripture shows that when the body dies, it is not the end of the person.

Not yet.

. Earthly death is therefore not final

It's not. The second death is final at Judgement Day.

Because death is not final in the first sense I don’t see the second death as annihilation either

It's called the "second" death for a reason. The first is physical.

You should watch the video.

I took a look at it. His argument about the fate of the wicked in the OT is way off. For example his talking about the "vanishing away, etc" is about earthly death. Which makes no sense at all because righteous people die earthly deaths as well. So what would be the point in stating that about the wicked? God is making a point that the wicked will perish.

“But the wicked will perish; the enemies of the Lord are like the glory of the pastures; they vanish—like smoke they vanish away.” – Psalm 37:20

So again, what he stated was pointless that it was only about an earthly death, since the righteous die earthly deaths as well.

So no, it's not talking about earthly/physical death. He's stating the fate of the wicked.

 

[timothyu]

I think the real difference between us is how we understand “death.”

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,”

 

[1Tonne]

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,”

Quoting 1 Corinthians 3:19 doesn’t refute this view. Paul is not condemning careful study of Scripture.
Many modern annihilationist arguments rely on the assumption that death must mean non-existence, an idea drawn from contemporary thinking, not the Bible. Scripture consistently describes death and destruction as ruin, separation, and judgment while the person continues to exist (Eph 2:1; Luke 15:24; Mark 9:48; Rev 14:11). Letting Scripture define its own terms is true wisdom, not worldly reasoning.

 

[timothyu]

The adversarial spirit will live on but contained. God's Will will be done, not the will of either elohim or man.

 

[1Tonne]

The adversarial spirit will live on but contained. God's Will will be done, not the will of either elohim or man.

I agree that God’s will will ultimately prevail. My focus here is on what Scripture teaches about death, resurrection, and the eternal consequences for those who reject God.

 

[timothyu]

My focus here is on what Scripture teaches about death, resurrection, and the eternal consequences for those who reject God.

And yet the focus is not on us, but God's war against adversity from beginning to end of the Bible. This is the bigger picture, but man likes to make it all about us.

 

[1Tonne]

And yet the focus is not on us, but God's war against adversity from beginning to end of the Bible. This is the bigger picture, but man likes to make it all about us.

I agree that God’s overarching plan is the defeat of evil. The focus of this thread, however, is on what Scripture teaches about eternal consequences for those who reject Him, which is part of that bigger picture. Some who embrace annihilationism tend to focus on a complete non-existence because they are uncomfortable with the reality of eternal judgment, making it more about their own sensibilities than what Scripture clearly teaches.

 

[timothyu]

is on what Scripture teaches about eternal consequences for those who reject Him, which is part of that bigger picture.

Tares = adversity. Again even the tares have shells like man. What is their fate? What the tares represent lives on but what happens to the tares?

 

[SarahsKnight]

I took a look at it. His argument about the fate of the wicked in the OT is way off. For example his talking about the "vanishing away, etc" is about earthly death. Which makes no sense at all because righteous people die earthly deaths as well. So what would be the point in stating that about the wicked? God is making a point that the wicked will perish.

Aaaaaand winner.

 

[1Tonne]

Can't you honestly see that makes no sense? You are basically stating they receive eternal life but only in a different place. You can spin it however but that is basically what you are stating. You continue to use the second meaning of the word apollumi although many verses like Matthew 10:28 dictates that we should use the first meaning "destroy fully". So no, there is no ongoing death.

And death and hell are going to be thrown into the lake of fire. There will be no more death after that.

And this will eventually happen-

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

He doesn't state there shall be no more death other than those suffering an ongoing death in the Lake of Fire. He states "there shall be no more death". The former things are passed away. The lake of fire is a "former thing". He makes "all' things new.

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

• Context matters for apollumi :- In Matthew 10:28, “destroy both soul and body in hell” uses apollumi to describe eternal ruin, not annihilation. Even if one argues for a “primary meaning” of complete destruction, the context in Revelation 14:10–11 and Mark 9:48 shows conscious ongoing punishment. The smoke goes up forever; the worm does not die (the soul). This cannot describe non-existence. The “destruction” is eternal ruin, not cessation of being.
• The second death is eternal separation and judgment, not extinction :- Revelation 20:14–15 says death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. This is a symbolic description of the final defeat of death as a power, not that individual persons cease to exist. The dead are already raised for judgment (John 5:28–29; Daniel 12:2), so the lake of fire is about judicial finality, not annihilation.
• Revelation 21:4–5 describes the renewal of creation - no more death, sorrow, or pain for the redeemed, in the new heaven and new earth. It doesn’t say the wicked cease to exist; it says the former order (death, suffering) is gone for those in eternal life with God.

Using “apollumi” as eternal ruin is not an arbitrary second meaning, it is exactly how Scripture uses the word in context. Death and hell being cast into the lake is the final act of God’s judgment, not a literal annihilation of those under punishment. The wicked exist to experience that eternal punishment; the righteous enjoy the new creation without sorrow or death.

Tares = adversity. Again even the tares have shells like man. What is their fate? What the tares represent lives on but what happens to the tares?

Yes, the tares as physical plants are removed, but the parable emphasizes that those who reject God will be separated and punished (Matt 13:41–42). Just as the wheat is gathered to eternal life, the tares are cast into the fire — Scripture describes this as a conscious, ongoing judgment, not mere annihilation.

Aaaaaand winner.

How???
While some OT passages speak of the wicked “perishing,” the broader biblical context shows this is about their ultimate fate, not just earthly death. Physical death happens to everyone, but Scripture consistently distinguishes that the wicked face conscious, eternal ruin (Mark 9:48; Revelation 14:10–11; 2 Thess 1:9). “Perish” and “destroy” often mean ruin, loss, or separation, not ceasing to exist. So, highlighting the wicked’s fate isn’t redundant, it underscores God’s justice: the righteous die physically but live eternally, while the wicked experience eternal ruin.

 

[timothyu]

Scripture describes this as a conscious, ongoing judgment, not mere annihilation.

It seems you do. I grew up on a farm and have yet to see tares survive a fire. If scripture would have meant writhing while toasted in an oven, it would have said so. What the adversarial spirit has corrupted and remained unrepentant shall be destroyed.

 

[JulieB67]

The smoke goes up forever; the worm does not die (the soul).

Why have you added soul? The worms are a sign of total destruction. That's why Gehenna is used as an example. And Christ states fear the one that can kill both body and soul. So yes, the soul can and will die.

. It doesn’t say the wicked cease to exist;

Most of the Bible points out that the wicked will cease to exist, vanish, melt away, be no more, consumed to ashes and so on....
That doesn't happen at the earthly death but the second death at Judgment Day. That's what a fire does.

it says the former order (death, suffering) is gone for those in eternal life with God

It does not state that. It states there shall be no more death -for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

In Matthew 10:28, “destroy both soul and body in hell” uses apollumi to describe eternal ruin, not annihilation.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Christ states both body and soul which would mean fully destroyed. He can't make that any clearer by including both.

And yes, the smoke of their torment rises forever. That does not mean they will be tormented forever.

This is a symbolic description of the final defeat of death as a power,

The last thing defeated is death, so there is no "ongoing death" that's not biblical.

about judicial finality, not annihilation.

I'll take God's word about the ultimate fate of the wicked. I've read it many times. Your suggesting that we are going by emotions and not scripture is false. I'm all about scripture. And your doctrine has to add to God's word. I like to let the scriptures speak for themselves. If God tells me there's going to be a day when the wicked will be "burned up" that will neither leave root or branch and consumed to ashes (just as our example in Sodom and Gomorrah, I'll believe that. You're hanging on to a few verses and adding to others (like John 3:16)

but live eternally, while the wicked experience eternal ruin.

Meaning according to you that both live eternally. But you can't exactly state that so you have to put a spin on it instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.,

 

[1Tonne]

It seems you do. I grew up on a farm and have yet to see tares survive a fire. If scripture would have meant writhing while toasted in an oven, it would have said so. What the adversarial spirit has corrupted and remained unrepentant shall be destroyed.

Parables are illustrations, not exhaustive explanations. They are designed to highlight one main truth, not to map every detail literally. If we press every element woodenly, parables quickly break down. For example, in the parable of the lost sheep, the sheep is not literally a sinner wandering on four legs. In the parable of the sower, people are not literally soil. In the parable of the ten virgins, salvation is not obtained by buying oil at a shop.

Likewise, in the parable of the tares, the point is the certainty and finality of judgment, not how weed react in flames. To argue that because tares are burned up, therefore people must cease to exist, is to over-literalize the metaphor while ignoring Jesus’ own explanation that this judgment involves weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 13:42), which presupposes consciousness.

So, the parable teaches decisive judgment and exclusion from God’s kingdom, not the mechanics of what consciousness in judgment must be like. Parables clarify truth; they are not meant to replace the clearer, didactic passages that speak directly about eternal punishment.

 

[BPPLEE]

Parables are illustrations, not exhaustive explanations. They are designed to highlight one main truth, not to map every detail literally. If we press every element woodenly, parables quickly break down. For example, in the parable of the lost sheep, the sheep is not literally a sinner wandering on four legs. In the parable of the sower, people are not literally soil. In the parable of the ten virgins, salvation is not obtained by buying oil at a shop.

Likewise, in the parable of the tares, the point is the certainty and finality of judgment, not how weed react in flames. To argue that because tares are burned up, therefore people must cease to exist, is to over-literalize the metaphor while ignoring Jesus’ own explanation that this judgment involves weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 13:42), which presupposes consciousness.

So, the parable teaches decisive judgment and exclusion from God’s kingdom, not the mechanics of what consciousness in judgment must be like. Parables clarify truth; they are not meant to replace the clearer, didactic passages that speak directly about eternal punishment.

It could also mean that lost people suffer Hell for a certain amount of time. Remember some would receive a few stripes others would receive many stripes