Can a young child become a Christian?

[narnia59]

go read the chapters.. they talk all about it.

heart of flesh to replace your heart of stone.
a new spirit that calls out to your father..

etc.

Our hearts of stone are indeed changed when the Holy Spirit dwells within us.

At issue is the idea that there is a "baptism of the heart" that is somehow a separate thing from being Baptized with water in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Baptism by definition is a water ritual. Scripture never speaks to a baptism of the heart that is a separate kind of baptism.

its pretty simple, those chapters are fulfilled in Jesus's baptism of the Holy Spirit.

there was a partial fulfillment in John's baptism for repentance. which seems to be what many are stuck in.

John said that he baptized with water, but that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Do you think that means that Jesus wouldn't baptize with water? Or that John baptized with water only, but that Jesus would baptize with water and the Holy Spirit?

If you choose that to mean that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit instead of water, then water baptism should have ceased with John. But it did not. And when Jesus does begin to baptize immediately after the discussion with Nicodemus about being born again, he's using water. So is he baptizing with water alone, or with water and the Holy Spirit?

anyone can walk into a church and get baptized. it doesn't do anything for someone who is not willing to actually follow Jesus.

100% agree. For any sacrament to be valid and effective, there is a requirement that there is proper intent. But where there is proper form, matter and intent, then being baptized does exactly what Jesus says it will -- we are born again. It does exactly what Peter says it will -- our sins are forgiven (Acts 2:38). It does exactly what Paul says it will -- it brings us into Christ ((Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27).

 

[narnia59]

"The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun."What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? | GotQuestions.org

Yes Baptism places the believer into the body of Christ.

It was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost when Peter tells the crowd that "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38) Repent, get baptized and your sins are forgiven and you receive the Holy Spirit. Not receive the Holy Spirit and then have a water ritual later on.

At issue is the belief that there are two baptisms, one with water and one with the Holy Spirit.

St. Paul is clear -- there is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5). Not two. "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all."

So you can have
1) One baptism that is by water only as John was performing
2) One baptism that is by the Holy Spirit only and no water Baptism at all. If this was the intent of John when he said that he would baptize with water but Jesus would baptize by the Holy Spirit, then Jesus or the apostles never would have baptized with water at all. But they do.
3) One baptism that is by water and the Holy Spirit. Which is what happens on the day of Pentecost.

What you can't have per St. Paul are two separate baptisms. One by water. One by the Holy Spirit. Because he's clear there's only ONE.

 

[timothyu]

Nope Jesus did not have to believe in Himself to get into the Kingdom (He is The King). And people only get into the Kingdom by belief in Jesus.

Yet He said He did nothing of His own will but only of the Father’s

 

[timothyu]

But they also had an intimate and close relationship with God and therefore the capacity to exercise that free will to choose Him over they were made that way. Selfishness of the flesh. Was the downfall.

They were made that way and flesh won out over spirit where they put their Will first

 

[narnia59]

They were made that way and flesh won out over spirit where they put their Will first

I don't disagree with that.

The question I guess is, are they only a bad example? Or did their decision impact the nature of their progeny, so that our will is wounded making it impossible for us to not put our will first without divine assistance?

 

[Always in His Presence]

St. Paul wrote

Rom 10: 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

If the ONLY WAY is through Baptism - why did St. Paul not mention Baptism?

 

[lismore]

Luke 1:15 Even from his birth, he will be filled with the Holy Spirit.

If someone can be filled with the Holy Spirit from birth then surely a child can be saved

 

[timothyu]

Or did their decision impact the nature of their progeny

No, their hybrid human nature did. It was only a matter of time before they would put their will ahead of the will of the Father, and so it goes with all. Human instinct is hereditary, come factory installed.

 

[concretecamper]

I'll ask you the same question still not answered:

St. Paul wrote

Rom 10: 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

​

If the ONLY WAY is through Baptism - why did St. Paul not mention Baptism?

Pretty simple really. If you believe in Him, you will listen to Him. If you confess He is Lord, you MUST listen to Him.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Pretty simple really. If you believe in Him, you will listen to Him. If you confess He is Lord, you MUST listen to Him.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Um…. Why didn’t St Paul write anything about Baptism in his verses in Romans that dealt specifically with Salvation

 

[johansen]

Um…. Why didn’t St Paul write anything about Baptism in his verses in Romans that dealt specifically with Salvation

asking the right question....

there is an answer but i suspect most here will not agree with it.

salvation is not the same thing as being born again.

saved means your sins are forgiven on the day of judgement and you go to heaven.

born again means so much more.

no one was born again prior to pentacost. (which is why the disciples in general seemed to remain spiritually blind till after Jesus died and rose again) some of the OT prophets seemed to have brief experiences of what it would be like to have a regenerated heart but we won't know for sure until we can talk to them.

I tend to believe that while paul may technically be correct, James had to deal with a lot of ignorant unconverted people proclaiming Jesus is Lord and believing he rose from the dead, while being lawless. which is why he wrote: you foolish person do you want to find out even the demons believe....

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

If a person believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth, they are saved.

What about all those people though out history who have been born mute. Are you saying a mute cannot be saved?

 

[johansen]

What about all those people though out history who have been born mute. Are you saying a mute cannot be saved?

not sure if you're trying to troll or not but this is a question an autistic person would ask. and i mean that respectfully, being once considered autistic myself.

my wife literally believed for the first 23 years of her life that only men could be saved because all of Paul's letters use the masculine words when talking about salvation. women were saved by being under the authority of their righteous father, then being handed over to a righteous husband.

my mom also was trapped in similar types of thinking and it wouldn't surprise me if at least 1% of christian women have similar misunderstandings, simply due to the default use of masculine words.

 

[concretecamper]

Um…. Why didn’t St Paul write anything about Baptism in his verses in Romans that dealt specifically with Salvation

Umm, read the Bible

Gal 3:26 For you are all the children of God, by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Umm, read the Bible

Gal 3:26 For you are all the children of God, by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ.

Still did not answer the question.

 

[Always in His Presence]

asking the right question....

there is an answer but i suspect most here will not agree with it.

You are correct. I read your answer. I’m one of many who would disagree.

But thank you for trying.

 

[concretecamper]

Still did not answer the question.

Sure it does. You just don't like the answer Scripture gives.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Agreed - John the Baptist recognized the Presence of his Savior even in the womb - however it doesn't have any connection to Salvation.

This is a real bad theological belief! How do you know it doesn't have any connection to salvation? What Scripture passage can possibly say or even infer this?

Your statement "it doesn't have any connection to Salvation" is falsified by the context in Luke 1. John was filled with the HS before he was born (Luke 1:14) and would come with the power and spirit of Elijah (Luke 1:17). All salvation is attributed by the HS....and in John's case, Scripture specifically says he was filled the HS. The Spirit regenerates believers, bringing them from spiritual death to life.

• I Cor 12:3. no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
• Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
• Romans 5:5. God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
• Mt. 10:20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
• John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
• Jesus taught that one must be "born of the Spirit" to enter the Kingdom of heaven (John 3:5).

Salvation with the associated Kingdom of God was given to John when the Heavenly Father in his grace gives him his Holy Spirit before he was born.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Salvation with the associated Kingdom of God was given to John when the Heavenly Father in his grace gives him his Holy Spirit before he was born.

To believe this I have to completely ignore Romans 10 as I quoted earlier.

Along with:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All of which directly speak of Salvation - not one mentions Baptism. Which is what I was addressing

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

All of which directly speak of Salvation - not one mentions Baptism. Which is what I was addressing

Of course they don't mention baptism. Baptists always love to go to all passages of Scripture that don't teach anything about baptism and children whatsoever and try to prove who should or should not be baptized. Strange way of doing exegesis. Kinda like going to passages of Scripture that only teach end time theology and say....we should not pray because all these passages of Scripture don't mention prayer. Strange.

Our main rule for interpreting Scripture is: CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. We only use passages of Scripture that teach something about baptism and children mentioned contextually together. Are there passages of Scripture in the NT that mention children and baptism contextually together? Of course there are.

Baptists use strange hermenuetics in order to explain away baptism including infants altogether.