Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

[Dan1988]

You're not actually paying attention to anything I'm saying, are you? I'm not sure how we can have a productive discussion, let alone fellowship, if you refuse to listen or even learn from additional Trinitarian Christians other than your one local minister.



And according to you, what is the difference between a 'truth claim' and a 'fact'?


No one was addressing whether or not the sun will keep rising and setting. Your bringing that up is a fallacy called a 'red-herring.' I suggest you avoid repeating this fallacy going forward into the future.

I don't understand why you're having such great difficulty in distinguishing the difference between the Lord Jesus who said He is the Truth, and fact about nature. It's as though you've lumped the Lord Jesus, together with His creatin. I'm sure you know that the Lord Jesus created everything that exists, but He's not a part of any created thing, He is separate and outside of His creation.

The sun is a thing, it only serves the purpose it was created for, but it is an inanimate object and it is truly dead. It must obey The Lord Jesus, so it is governed by the fact that it must rise and set at the same time everyday. That is a fact, no different to any other fact which the created order must obey. But the Lord is the Truth, He is not a fact!!!

 

[Dan1988]

And you would be extremely wrong to think that philosophy is, in whole, mutually exclusive to Christian theology.

You might want to keep in mind that, actually, the undertaking of biblical systematic theology REQUIRES the application of some points of the wide (very, very wide) field of Philosophy.

You would be right to say that I don't hold to Sola Scriptura, and I'd go on record to in fact say that in order to be saved, no one needs to. God is bigger than the rag tag collection of letters and books we call the New Testament, after all, and I'll continue to take my measures for what constitutes 'good theology' from many Christian scholars (and ministers) rather than ................... only one local minister.

And in saying all of the above, I'll continue on in my viewpoint and do so with the same outlook and attitude of Copernicus who said, and I quote, "There may be babblers, wholly ignorant of mathematics, who dare to condemn my hypothesis, upon the authority of some part of the Bible twisted to suit their purpose. I value them not, and scorn their unfounded judgment.”


I beg to differ on this point. How can anyone have "sound theology" by believing in a social bubble, with little or no education in the area of Hermeneutics, Biblical Exegesis, and Church History??? ............ by special pleading about one's special, personal revelations or by the special abilities of one's singular local minister? I think not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously. I never said salvation is exactly congruent with "how well" we know the Scriptures. It's also not exactly congruent with a set of presuppositions attuned solely and only to, shall we say, a more Calvinistic leaning.


And neither is God impressed with anyone's SPIRITUAL ZEAL that persists without KNOWLEDGE.

Well then, with that, have a Merry Christmas!

Here's why I keep well away from Philosophy, Psychology, secular science or anything else that is based on mans wisdom.

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death".

I'm never going to die again, once was enough, so why would I dabble in witchcraft or sorcery.

Philosophy has nothing to offer Born again believers, neither do the Shepherds of other flocks. Why would I turn my back on my Shepherd, to go after other Shepherds or worse still, Philosophers.

Here's what the bible says about those who do this.

Judges 2:17 "And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so."

I don't want to be like those who go whoring after other gods. God hands them over to the false gods and they are lost.

"Sola Scriptura" is Gods Living Word. It is the power to save, in fact it's the only way we can learn about who God is. Everyone who is saved and everyone who will be saved, is saved by the same old gospel. So the Bible is not a rag tag bunch of ancient weightings. It's Gods Living Word.

If you try to add anything to the simplicity of the Bible, then you will be swept away by every wind of doctrine.

There is only one way to learn, sound theology. And that is, you must be indwelt by the holy Spirit, (He leads Gods people, into all truth).

Those who are not lead by the Hoy Spirit, will surely fall for Satan's deception. He deceived Adam and Eve, and they were much wiser, than anyone today, but Satan is far wiser than any man, so deceiving unprotected men is super easy for Him.

It's getting close to midnight, so I'm goanna sign out for now, and I'm going to wish you a blessed Christmas, instead of a merry one. I think "merry" happy and the worlds gets happy after they have consumed some kind of external/artificial substance.

My sheppherd forbids any type of drugs or alcohol or any other type of sinful activities. My Church still has a Christmas party and a new years eve party. We still have great fun without abusing any substance's

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't understand why you're having such great difficulty in distinguishing the difference between the Lord Jesus who said He is the Truth, and fact about nature. It's as though you've lumped the Lord Jesus, together with His creatin. I'm sure you know that the Lord Jesus created everything that exists, but He's not a part of any created thing, He is separate and outside of His creation.

The sun is a thing, it only serves the purpose it was created for, but it is an inanimate object and it is truly dead. It must obey The Lord Jesus, so it is governed by the fact that it must rise and set at the same time everyday. That is a fact, no different to any other fact which the created order must obey. But the Lord is the Truth, He is not a fact!!!

Oh, ok. Please excuse me, then, while I go burn my Philosophy degree diploma.................................

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Here's why I keep well away from Philosophy, Psychology, secular science or anything else that is based on mans wisdom.

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death".

I'm never going to die again, once was enough, so why would I dabble in witchcraft or sorcery.

Philosophy has nothing to offer Born again believers, neither do the Shepherds of other flocks. Why would I turn my back on my Shepherd, to go after other Shepherds or worse still, Philosophers.

Here's what the bible says about those who do this.

Judges 2:17 "And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so."

I don't want to be like those who go whoring after other gods. God hands them over to the false gods and they are lost.

"Sola Scriptura" is Gods Living Word. It is the power to save, in fact it's the only way we can learn about who God is. Everyone who is saved and everyone who will be saved, is saved by the same old gospel. So the Bible is not a rag tag bunch of ancient weightings. It's Gods Living Word.

If you try to add anything to the simplicity of the Bible, then you will be swept away by every wind of doctrine.

There is only one way to learn, sound theology. And that is, you must be indwelt by the holy Spirit, (He leads Gods people, into all truth).

Those who are not lead by the Hoy Spirit, will surely fall for Satan's deception. He deceived Adam and Eve, and they were much wiser, than anyone today, but Satan is far wiser than any man, so deceiving unprotected men is super easy for Him.

It's getting close to midnight, so I'm goanna sign out for now, and I'm going to wish you a blessed Christmas, instead of a merry one. I think "merry" happy and the worlds gets happy after they have consumed some kind of external/artificial substance.

My sheppherd forbids any type of drugs or alcohol or any other type of sinful activities. My Church still has a Christmas party and a new years eve party. We still have great fun without abusing any substance's

So, you'll stop using English to communicate then? Language itself comes from "man's wisdom."

But, I know, I get it. Who cares?

 

[ladodgers6]

What is currently called Calvinism didn't start with Calvin.

Exactly right! BTW, Calvin disliked the nickname "Calvinism" coined by the Lutherans. A matter of fact, Calvin preferred Doctrines of Grace because this is what the Scriptures teach. People misconstrue this point often, if not all the time. They use ad hominem tactics instead of presenting a case to disprove it. I know why from experience.

 

[ladodgers6]

Oh, ok. Please excuse me, then, while I go burn my Philosophy degree diploma.................................

I agree with Dan1988, because creation cannot partake in the divine essence of the Triune Trinity.

 

[ladodgers6]

And you would be extremely wrong to think that philosophy is, in whole, mutually exclusive to Christian theology.

You might want to keep in mind that, actually, the undertaking of biblical systematic theology REQUIRES the application of some points of the wide (very, very wide) field of Philosophy.

You would be right to say that I don't hold to Sola Scriptura, and I'd go on record to in fact say that in order to be saved, no one needs to. God is bigger than the rag tag collection of letters and books we call the New Testament, after all, and I'll continue to take my measures for what constitutes 'good theology' from many Christian scholars (and ministers) rather than ................... only one local minister.

I agree with some of what you write, and contest the rest. I learned a long time ago to read everything I can get on hands on. But the historic fact is that the Bible is the only reliable source. That's where I base my confidence, because it is the word of God. And many upon many facts back this up.

But I am interested on how you base your truth claim if you have no core standard to rely upon. It seems to me that you rely on bias self-assuring feelings rather than on facts presented in Scripture.

 

[Dan1988]

So, you'll stop using English to communicate then? Language itself comes from "man's wisdom."

But, I know, I get it. Who cares?

That's wrong, because here's why God created languages. This will prove that "mans wisdom" contributed nothing.

Genesis 11:7-9
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

So yes, you can burn your diploma ​

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I agree with Dan1988, because creation cannot partake in the divine essence of the Triune Trinity.

I never said anything about creation partaking in the divine essence of the Trinity. I don't believe that it does. Why anyone would think the word "Philosophy" must automatically imply as such is beyond me.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I agree with some of what you write, and contest the rest. I learned a long time ago to read everything I can get on hands on. But the historic fact is that the Bible is the only reliable source. That's where I base my confidence, because it is the word of God. And many upon many facts back this up.

And did I say anywhere that the Bible isn't a substantive historical source? I don't think did. Y'know, we all come to the Bible in different ways, and I come to it via the Philosophy of History and Hermeneutics. But even so, I have confidence in the Bible as being Sacred Scripture coming from God.

It's good that you are open to reading everything you can get your hands on. I do too. That's why I have several hundreds books on Christian Theology and History.

But I am interested on how you base your truth claim if you have no core standard to rely upon.

Which 'truth claim' are you referring to? Are you intending to refer to Epistemology specifically, or something else altogether?

It seems to me that you rely on bias self-assuring feelings rather than on facts presented in Scripture.

.... I rely on anything but my "feelings." I'm primarily an Evidentialist in my faith, and only Existential where the Biblical information may be lacking. So, for me, fact and rational thought override my feelings.

And even where the topic of 'Hell' is concerned, I attempt to look at the Scriptural and Historical evidence for understand how it was thought about by each individual writer of the New Testament letters and books. My feelings have little or really nothing to do with my methodology.

But I know, there are some folks out there who are Annihilationists simply because the idea of an Eternal Hell is too emotionally overwhelming for them. Although I may lean toward Annihilationism myself, I can see in the New Testament how a case can be made for either perspective and if an Eternal Hell is what the Lake of Fire actually is, my feelings about will have little or nothing to do with my understanding of it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's wrong, because here's why God created languages. This will prove that "mans wisdom" contributed nothing.

Genesis 11:7-9​

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.​

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.​

​

So yes, you can burn your diploma ​

So God "created" the English language [and all of the languages spoken around the world today] during the Tower of Babel incident? Really?

Well, whatever the case may be, I'm not worried that Hell is either an ongoing fire or an extinguishment from existence. Both are bad and I'm open to either perspective.

 

[ladodgers6]

I never said anything about creation partaking in the divine essence of the Trinity. I don't believe that it does. Why anyone would think the word "Philosophy" must automatically imply as such is beyond me.

Okay, I want to be fair. Please, state your position.

 

[ladodgers6]

Which 'truth claim' are you referring to? Are you intending to refer to Epistemology specifically, or something else altogether?

Epistemology and Ontology.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Okay, I want to be fair. Please, state your position.

You want me to state my position on what exactly? The tangential direction that Dan has taken this little thread isn't clear to me. He's injected the extra topic about 'Truth' and seems to think that simply citing a Bible verse somehow comprehensively establishes and explains any and all that might be addressed in regard to the concept of "truth" in all it's possible references.

We all know that Jesus said He is the Truth, the Life and the Way. We're all Trinitarian Christians here and no one is contravening Jesus' statement of God's Truth here.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Epistemology and Ontology.

What you're seemingly asking, as far as I can tell, is for me to divulge as to what my choice of praxis is when doing theology. Well, for me, theology hinges on the application of research in Historiography, the Philosophy of History, Archaeology, and various Critical Biblical Studies, as well as upon Philosophical Hermenuetics and Evidentialism.

As for Metaphysics, I tend to ignore it and just focus on Physics and material science without worrying about the final ontologicalquestions, but where knowledge is concerned, then I draw upon a number of scholars for analyses dealing with Epistemology and our justification for claims of "knowledge." I would rather study the Cosmos or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun rather than guessing as to what Heaven and Eternal Life will actually be like. I'm sure it'll be grand with a Capital J.

But here's the thing: I have no intention of going around wacking other Christians over the head, insisting upon their dogmatic compliance with how I ultimately understand the Bible and then condemning those who don't. As for the issue of 'Hell,' which this thread pertains to, I don't care if Christians subscribe to either Eternal Fire or Annihilationism. I do have less room for Universalism, but I might be persuaded to "allow" universalist Christians to have room to believe as they wish without automatically consigning them to the Lake of Fire for hoping that everyone would be saved.

 

[ladodgers6]

What you're seemingly asking, as far as I can tell, is for me to divulge as to what my choice of praxis is when doing theology. Well, for me, theology hinges on the application of research in Historiography, the Philosophy of History, Archaeology, and various Critical Biblical Studies, as well as upon Philosophical Hermenuetics and Evidentialism.

As for Metaphysics, I tend to ignore it and just focus on Physics and material science without worrying about the final ontologicalquestions, but where knowledge is concerned, then I draw upon a number of scholars for analyses dealing with Epistemology and our justification for claims of "knowledge." I would rather study the Cosmos or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun rather than guessing as to what Heaven and Eternal Life will actually be like. I'm sure it'll be grand with a Capital J.

But here's the thing: I have no intention of going around wacking other Christians over the head, insisting upon their dogmatic compliance with how I ultimately understand the Bible and then condemning those who don't. As for the issue of 'Hell,' which this thread pertains to, I don't care if Christians subscribe to either Eternal Fire or Annihilationism. I do have less room for Universalism, but I might be persuaded to "allow" universalist Christians to have room to believe as they wish without automatically consigning them to the Lake of Fire for hoping that everyone would be saved.

Thanks for sharing with you. I like having discussions with civil manners. Yeah, people IMHO have their own prerogative & aptitude to seek what they wish. I am a novice astrologer whose always in awe when witnessing the wonders of space. Just witnessing M31, Saturn, Jupiter all point to a Divine Maker. Physics or natural laws all also point to a designer. I am now studying Quantum Physics & Micro Biology: Human Cells (Mitosis).

All that being said, doesn't reveal what God has accomplished in His Son for His people. The historical record of the eschatological consummation of God's Redemptive Plan is what I am interested in. That to me is more awe taking that anything else I have read. I am only sharing with you.

Thanks again for sharing.​

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

There are many opposing interpretations of the Biblical doctrine of hell. Most Christian denominations, interpret "eternal torment in hell" as "Annihilationism". They teach that Gods Word cannot be taken literally and hell is not eternal, they teach that it's an instantaneous burning up and the person's body, sloe and spirt cease to exist.

This view is a direct contradiction to what Gods Word reveals.

Hell is a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant, characterized by both separation from God's favour and the presence of his wrath. It is not a place of rehabilitation, but a permanent state of suffering for the wicked, who will experience "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and a fire that is not quenched.

God is present in hell not with kindness, mercy, and grace, but with his "wrathful presence" and just punishment.
Hell is a final, permanent state of punishment. The wicked are not annihilated, nor is there a second chance for salvation after death.

Punishment includes positive pains of body and soul, anguish, and despair, described through biblical metaphors like fire and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked are raised from the dead to be judged and then experience the "second death," which is an unending punishment.

The biblical doctrine of eternal torment in hell, which is understood as everlasting, conscious punishment for the unrighteous.
This view, often termed "Eternal Conscious Torment" is supported by scriptural passages like the parables of Jesus that use imagery of "unquenchable fire" and "undying worms," and phrases like "everlasting punishment". To sin against an eternal God warrants a severe and everlasting penalty.

The punishment for sin is considered unending, a concept supported by passages such as Matthew 25:46, which parallels "everlasting life" with "everlasting punishment".

Hell is a place of conscious torment, not annihilation. The wicked will remain conscious and aware of their suffering for eternity.
Hell is a place of final separation from God's presence and grace, it's not an absence of God. Instead, it is experiencing God's wrathful presence.
The torment is a manifestation of God's wrath, which is a just and righteous response to sin against His holy nature.

Some scriptural examples, are found in

Matthew 25:41, 46 Jesus speaks of sending the cursed "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and says these will go away "into everlasting punishment".

Mark 9:43, 48 Jesus uses the imagery of a "fire that never shall be quenched" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" to describe the place of judgment.

Revelation 14:11 The text says, "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night".

Hebrews 12:29 God is described as a "consuming fire" in reference to his wrath.

A couple basic points.

Most denominations do not say hell/LoF is Annihilation. They have similar position to yours.

Secondly there assuredly is salvation after death. All of us receive eternal life *in full* after our physical death. So there's that.

Additionally Paul very clearly stated enemies of the Gospel are saved simply by being Israel, not having to do anything other than being Israelites. Romans 11:26-32

 

[Dan1988]

So God "created" the English language [and all of the languages spoken around the world today] during the Tower of Babel incident? Really?

Well, whatever the case may be, I'm not worried that Hell is either an ongoing fire or an extinguishment from existence. Both are bad and I'm open to either perspective.

Just wondering why you don't believe what God said about the matter. Your opinion has no baring on anything. Everything that God predestined, will come to pass, with or without your approval or disapproval.

 

[Dan1988]

A couple basic points.

Most denominations do not say hell/LoF is Annihilation. They have similar position to yours.

Secondly there assuredly is salvation after death. All of us receive eternal life *in full* after our physical death. So there's that.

Additionally Paul very clearly stated enemies of the Gospel are saved simply by being Israel, not having to do anything other than being Israelites. Romans 11:26-32

I should have made my point clearer, I should have said. Most Christian Denominations don't accept the bible doctrine of hell. Most have invented their own unbvi9blical version of hell. I believe this is, because the truth about hell is just to hard to accept.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Just wondering why you don't believe what God said about the matter. Your opinion has no baring on anything. Everything that God predestined, will come to pass, with or without your approval or disapproval.

I do (generally) believe what is said by the New Testament writers about Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. But being that these ideas are ancient and foreign in nature, locked away as they are within the linguistic confines of a dead language, they have to be carefully understood, not quickly nor blithely rattled off from a biblical text printed in modern English. And when they are sifted through for meaning using Hermeneutics (which we all should be doing), I find that the evidence as to whether we should 'believe' in an eternal fire or we should believe in annihilation is underdetermined. So, I allow other, fellow Christians [such as yourself] to make up their own minds on the matter.