what is Calvinism answer to how God works?

[ARBITER01]

Fair enough. All of our notions should be updated.

Notice, though, that here you speak of works, which the conversation you spoke against, brought up as something we were predestined to. Might those be the same as the "greater works" you describe as the weightier matters according to Jesus?

Is it my works, or is it the works that The Father is able to do through me because of my relationship with GOD and His holiness?

We are to be partakers of His holiness, and that only comes from a continual closeness with GOD, not from the pages of our bible. A lot of people on this site have their priorities mixed up.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That seems like an odd question.

How was Paul taught of Jesus by revelation? Did he not learn everything you read on those pages from him from Jesus?

Studying the bible is of course good, but reaching for a closeness with Jesus every day is way better. I don't try to figure things out on my own, I rely upon the teaching and leading of The Holy Spirit so that I'm sure I really have the truth and it's proper understanding.

In my opinion, the bible is only a good as your relationship with Jesus is.

That sounds a little more poetic than realistic. It also sounds like coincidence implies causation.

Paul was indeed taught by Jesus by revelation. We are by illumination, not revelation, as such. We are not apostles.

You have some good points, but there are many who think their understanding of God is a result of the relationship, whose doctrine is all emotion and platitudes. I have heard it said that in Calvinism there is no love. Yet the Calvinist (by and large) sees nothing but love in the nature and work of God and the doctrines concerning Christ's mercy and grace. Not some general goodwill to mankind, but very specific directed purpose resulting for God's own glory.

Reaching for closeness with God is good, no doubt, but the joy of relationship (as if that was all that this was about) is nowhere near as good as recognizing God for who he is and seeing our dependence on him for our very being and for the ability to walk with him, (and not of ourselves), produces an unequaled joy, peace and confidence, and ever-increasing 'getting to know him'.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is it my works, or is it the works that The Father is able to do through me because of my relationship with GOD and His holiness?

We are to be partakers of His holiness, and that only comes from a continual closeness with GOD, not from the pages of our bible. A lot of people on this site have their priorities mixed up.

What makes you think that the pages of the Bible take priority over relationship with God in the lives of those you appear to criticize here? Is it because that is mostly what we talk about? The reason we come here is both. If you want the drippy sweet posts about relationship, there are boards here for that.

When I go to the Christian book stores, it is not to find yet another book about How To Have A Great Relationship With Jesus, nor how to use poor exegesis and introspection to achieve a copacetic cooperation with God, or to quell my fears of condemnation.

The works God does through me are indeed HIS. I'm a believer in what I call monergism in sanctification, not just in regeneration and justification, salvation. Apart from him I can do nothing. BUT that is not because *I* pursued the relationship —it is because HE has done (and continues) that relationship in me. The only effort I can put into it is a result of what he does, not by my force of will. "The love of Christ constrains me" is not about me choosing as a result of considering his great love for me, but his love in me causing me to pursue him. I choose to do so because it IS so.

 

[ARBITER01]

Paul was indeed taught by Jesus by revelation. We are by illumination, not revelation, as such. We are not apostles.

That's a very telling statement you just made there.

No where in scripture does it say that only apostles are taught by revelation of The Holy Spirit. The apostles were not somehow better than us, and GOD is not somehow discriminatory with the rest of us.

There is a big, big difference between being born again and subsequently being Spirit-filled, and the benefits of that additional step, but I'm not going to go into that on here because people get easily upset and offended. You'll have to have a personal desire for that beyond what you currently know, like I did after I was born again.

You have some good points, but there are many who think their understanding of God is a result of the relationship, whose doctrine is all emotion and platitudes. I have heard it said that in Calvinism there is no love. Yet the Calvinist (by and large) sees nothing but love in the nature and work of God and the doctrines concerning Christ's mercy and grace. Not some general goodwill to mankind, but very specific directed purpose resulting for God's own glory.

Reaching for closeness with God is good, no doubt, but the joy of relationship (as if that was all that this was about) is nowhere near as good as recognizing God for who he is and seeing our dependence on him for our very being and for the ability to walk with him, (and not of ourselves), produces an unequaled joy, peace and confidence, and ever-increasing 'getting to know him'.

Complete dependency is a major part of that relationship with HIM.

We are off topic now, so here is where our conversation ends. It's been nice chatting with you, laters.

 

[ARBITER01]

What makes you think that the pages of the Bible take priority over relationship with God in the lives of those you appear to criticize here? Is it because that is mostly what we talk about?

Paul was indeed taught by Jesus by revelation. We are by illumination, not revelation, as such. We are not apostles.

I'm going to add a small footnote to our conversation.

I will state my opinion on here for the record,..... the main reason why there are so many folks getting caught up and carried away by false or unnecessary teachings on this site, is exactly because they trust in their bible over GOD. They place their bible in between GOD and them, and expect HIM to only speak to them from those pages. They are afraid to trust any voice otherwise because they can't discern if it is GOD, and are so afraid that it might be satan. In fact, years ago, people admitted on here to being specifically taught this method from certain bible colleges they went to.

All these theology teachings, the sabbath and law of moses junk, not to mention all the weird teachings people get themselves deceived with over in the controversial section, all stems from one major point that I can tell in their walk,......the temple has been cleansed by the blood, but The Spirit of GOD does not live in it yet.

Ok now, laters.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm going to add a small footnote to our conversation.

I will state my opinion on here for the record,..... the main reason why there are so many folks getting caught up and carried away by false or unnecessary teachings on this site, is exactly because they trust in their bible over GOD. They place their bible in between GOD and them, and expect HIM to only speak to them from those pages. They are afraid to trust any voice otherwise because they can't discern if it is GOD, and are so afraid that it might be satan. In fact, years ago, people admitted on here to being specifically taught this method from certain bible colleges they went to.

All these theology teachings, the sabbath and law of moses junk, not to mention all the weird teachings people get themselves deceived with over in the controversial section, all stems from one major point that I can tell in their walk,......the temple has been cleansed by the blood, but The Spirit of GOD does not live in it yet.

Ok now, laters.

Thus, one can be, and often is, deceived, because the Scriptures are not their anchor, but the subjective assessment of what they take for the Spirit of God's speaking to them is their foundation. I'm not going to claim that your experience is that way, but the danger of adding to or removing from Scripture's gospel is all over the place. Sola Scriptura is a valid principle. (And I'm not claiming that using Scripture alone means everyone is going to agree. That is subjective enough! But we do have a common anchor, that is demonstrably the word of God, through which the Spirit of God speaks to us, and against which the Spirit of God will never speak to us.)

"If you want to hear God speaking, read the Bible. If you want to hear God speaking out loud, read the Bible out loud."

 

[Mark Quayle]

No where in scripture does it say that only apostles are taught by revelation of The Holy Spirit. The apostles were not somehow better than us, and GOD is not somehow discriminatory with the rest of us.

My [what I thought was rather obvious] point is that the kind of teaching, and the purpose of it, for the apostles is "new revelation". I'm by no means saying that we don't learn from the Spirit's speaking to us. In fact, that would be contrary to scripture to claim that. Sorry for not being clear. I was trying to show the difference.

The apostles wrote scripture. We can only read it. But subjectivity is not a firm anchor.

There is a big, big difference between being born again and subsequently being Spirit-filled,

Of course

and the benefits of that additional step, but I'm not going to go into that on here because people get easily upset and offended. You'll have to have a personal desire for that beyond what you currently know, like I did after I was born again.

My personal desire, FWIW, is to be with God, without blemish, with my Savior. And whether or not he reveals other than that, is a result of his doing that very thing within me. This is usually, almost always, in fact, a result of his speaking to me through the Scriptures. And what he says is always what the Scriptures say. That is what I mean by ILLUMINATION.

And even that desire is the gift of God, and not of myself.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Complete dependency is a major part of that relationship with HIM.

I agree 100% with this. In fact, I consider it more than "a major part". It is a valid definition —though not specific to effects (results/outworkings) given in Scripture— of being "IN CHRIST".

There is no-one 'in Him' to whom the Spirit does not speak.

 

[ladodgers6]

I agree, to a point. I don't believe in common levels of maturity, or stages where this believer is behind or ahead of another in some common line of ascent. Certainly, one believer is more mature than another, but that doesn't imply such notions as, "I've been where you are."

But the study of the subject we have been pursuing, here, (or trying to pursue, at least), has everything in the end to do with the grace of God, which grace is the essence of the Gospel of Christ. That is the "weightier matter" —not the "milk" but the "meat". "1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits." It is that grace which is the meat of the whole of life, without which we are nothing. We are here to come to know Him.

I agree that we are not here to "figure it out". And discourse, discord and debate can (and usually do) descend into a lot of uselessness. In and of itself, "good works" is not the focus of grace, nor what we are to pursue above all else. What Calvin thinks about 'good works' is not of itself among the weightier matters. That I grant. But God's Word will not return to him void. And discussing what it says and what it means and what it is talking about, and discussing what God is doing/ building/ accomplishing, is always among the weightier matters.

Amen!

 

[ARBITER01]

Thus, one can be, and often is, deceived, because the Scriptures are not their anchor, but the subjective assessment of what they take for the Spirit of God's speaking to them is their foundation. I'm not going to claim that your experience is that way, but the danger of adding to or removing from Scripture's gospel is all over the place. Sola Scriptura is a valid principle. (And I'm not claiming that using Scripture alone means everyone is going to agree. That is subjective enough! But we do have a common anchor, that is demonstrably the word of God, through which the Spirit of God speaks to us, and against which the Spirit of God will never speak to us.)

"If you want to hear God speaking, read the Bible. If you want to hear God speaking out loud, read the Bible out loud."

I'm going to disagree with this a bit....

My anchor is Jesus, not scripture. Without His shed blood, we have nothing, so yes, He is our anchor in all things pertaining to this new Spiritual life we now have inside.

My understanding of scripture comes from the daily inner revelation of The Holy Spirit inside of me. I depend upon GOD that way because I want the direct source of the truth I read on those pages, I want His understanding being given to me, so that I'm not misunderstanding passages, and thereby being deceived, as I've mentioned about so many folks on here over the years.

Scripture is a certainly a foundation in our Christian lives that we need, but we can't truly know GOD by just reading the pages about Him, hence why I advocate a day to day relationship with Him through prayer and worship.

 

[ladodgers6]

That seems like an odd question.

How was Paul taught of Jesus by revelation? Did he not learn everything you read on those pages from him from Jesus?

Studying the bible is of course good, but reaching for a closeness with Jesus every day is way better. I don't try to figure things out on my own, I rely upon the teaching and leading of The Holy Spirit so that I'm sure I really have the truth and it's proper understanding.

In my opinion, the bible is only a good as your relationship with Jesus is.

Okay, then why do we need the Bible at all then? Or how about Jim Jones who massacred hundreds or David Koresh. Paul tells us to be like the Bereans who challenged Paul when he preached.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm going to disagree with this a bit....

My anchor is Jesus, not scripture. Without His shed blood, we have nothing, so yes, He is our anchor in all things pertaining to this new Spiritual life we now have inside.

I agree. But I refer to scripture as the anchor concerning doctrine, and the results of doctrine. He does not "reveal", anything new separate or not in accordance with Scripture. We can check what he "reveals" by Scripture. He does definitely comfort, lead and cause, quite apart from our reading.

My understanding of scripture comes from the daily inner revelation of The Holy Spirit inside of me.

I agree with that. Intellectual facts give us only feelings of condemnation (or a false sense of apathy) when not walking with God, which walking and understanding is a gift of God, not of the intellect. But he uses the intellect too, both to get in one's way and blind the presumptuous, and to learn truth.

I depend upon GOD that way because I want the direct source of the truth I read on those pages, I want His understanding being given to me, so that I'm not misunderstanding passages, and thereby being deceived, as I've mentioned about so many folks on here over the years.

Any of us can be deceived, and, I think, all of us are, to some degree, deceived by our mere human presumptuousness, our notions of reality, as opposed to what God will show us when we finally see him as he is. That is to say, what we think we understand still has a lot to be built upon what is true, and a lot to be removed and cleaned that results from our assumptions.

Scripture is a certainly a foundation in our Christian lives that we need, but we can't truly know GOD by just reading the pages about Him, hence why I advocate a day to day relationship with Him through prayer and worship.

Of course.