Not a lot of respect for men

[ChubbyCherub]

We don’t have to uphold a man’s authority we are not married to, however, we do have to uphold our husband’s authority based on God’s design. It took me a long time to see that a husband’s position is recognized by God even if that husband is abusive. We don’t have to stay in the abuse; we are allowed to separate ourselves. Sometimes this is not possibly, however, God recognizes the abuse, and when the wife humbles herself to God and ask for help, God removes that man - sometimes to the detriment of the man to break the authority - God takes the man from this life.

But if the woman is not humble, she cannot have the peace she seeks, because God’s law dictates a woman is subject to the man - only a humble and meek heart brings down swift help from God. That’s just how it is.

Jude gives an example of positions and how they are to be honored and respected even if the individual is wicked,
Jude 1:9 KJV
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

God originally gave Satan a position of honor that the other angels recognized - they would not disrespect Satan because he’s evil, because of the position and honor God gave to him, although he will be punished in the end.

No He will not. He requires obedience and honor and respect and a humble spirit. We should not condemn ourselves believing we can ignore what He has put in place because how we feel. Of course He understands how we feel, but God says I change not. So in order for God to remove the authority the man has over the woman, the woman must recognize the authority and humble herself and ask God for help. Then God will help swiftly. But if we ask out of pride and out of our selfishness, our feelings, we will not be helped.

That’s the lesson to learn - humility is the answer!

Thankfully, I don't have the issue with my husband but I pray for my mom who does...thanks for your comment x

 

[RamiC]

Sometimes this is not possibly, however, God recognizes the abuse, and when the wife humbles herself to God and ask for help, God removes that man - sometimes to the detriment of the man to break the authority - God takes the man from this life.

God took mine to people who could help him with his mental health, and the pair of us to a better church. Just saying....I entirely agree, no one has to remain unsafe.

 

[Rescued One]

Thank you very much for the quick response!

Church roles aside, he still states that women are prone to idleness, gossip etc and can only be redeemed through childbirth.

Why do we have to give birth to redeem ourselves of Eves sin in addition to having to redeem ourselves in the way men do?

Is this culturally specific or time specific or does he mean to apply this across all spans of time for eternity?

The point re: church roles has been brought up in my church and their view is that Paul only meant that women should be submissive and quiet in church due to the culture of Corinth, where he was teaching at the time, but I note that he says a similar thing in Timothy to those in Ephesus. So, this is where Corinth context seems to have made sense but then when off piste.

Thanks so much!

Quote the verses that supposedly support your statements.

 

[ChubbyCherub]

Quote the verses that supposedly support your statements.

I don't feel obliged to as the moment for this topic, as far as I'm concerned, has passed.

 

[Rescued One]

I don't feel obliged to as the moment for this topic, as far as I'm concerned, has passed.

I'm sorry. I was hoping to learn.

 

[ChubbyCherub]

Quote the verses that supposedly support your statements

My apologies, I mistook this statement, possibly because I'm still raw to the whole encounter that spurred this discussion in the first place and the limitless ways our intent can be misconstrued by text.

The verse is from 1 Timothy 2:12-15

12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

I have since found What does it mean that women will be "saved" through childbearing (1 Timothy 2:15)? | GotQuestions.org this site which states that this verse is often misinterpreted so it's something I am still considering.

Happy for your thoughts, too!

 

[Rescued One]

Thank you I don't use NLT.

I always refer to what is expected of husbands and men such as Ephesians 5:25: and Eph. 4:32 for EVERY Christian, male or female. If a man loves Christ, he will treat a woman with utmost kindness and respect! I love God's word and don't think verses that seem to put women down should be taken out of context. For instance, my mother left an abusive alcoholic husband. And I thank God for that.

 

[Rescued One]

Eunice and Lois were good Christians. Timothy was taught by his mother. See 2 Timothy 1:5 and 2 Tmothy chapter 3.

 

[Rescued One]

I have since found What does it mean that women will be "saved" through childbearing (1 Timothy 2:15)? | GotQuestions.org this site which states that this verse is often misinterpreted so it's something I am still considering.

I love GotQuestions.org. I don't know if they know what 1 Timothy 2:15 means. I read their answer, but I still don't know.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Thank you I don't use NLT.

I always refer to what is expected of husbands and men such as Ephesians 5:25: and Eph. 4:32 for EVERY Christian, male or female. If a man loves Christ, he will treat a woman with utmost kindness and respect! I love God's word and don't think verses that seem to put women down should be taken out of context. For instance, my mother left an abusive alcoholic husband. And I thank God for that.

As this thread is titled 'Not a lot of respect for men' I think it's wise to never cite this requirement for husbands from Ephesians 5 without also citing the requirement for wives from the same section: 'to submit to their husbands as to Christ' and 'to fear/reverence their husbands'.

And as husbands should love their wives even when their wives don't properly submit or fear/reverence them, in the same way the wives should still submit and fear/reverence their husbands even when they don't properly love them.

Of course I'm not talking about a situation where a husband literally beats his wife up, but these days the definition of 'abuse' gets stretched so much that any (verbal) correction or setting boundaries setting by a husband may already be construed as emotional abuse (this is not a joke).

Be blessed sisters .. !

 

[Bob Crowley]

I don't normally spend much time thinking about this particular text. I, and all my western contemporaries, live our lives in a society where women often hold leadership positions, and where a lot of church work and administration is performed by women. So I sort of gloss over it.

But since the question has been raised, I went looking for some answers.

One I found was the following-

Why does St. Paul ask women to learn in silence & submission? Is he a Misogynist? Fr. Gabriel Wissa - Coptic Orthodox Answers

Does God prefer men over women? Christianity claims that both genders are equal—which they are. But we read in 1st Timothy that women ought to learn in silence with all

copticorthodoxanswers.org

However, at the end of the verse, St. Paul says that women should learn in submission. Now, further analysis is definitely needed. First, we should understand that St. Paul is writing to St. Timothy, whom he had ordained as the Bishop of the city of Ephesus after he, himself, had started the church there. Now, Ephesus, as a city, had many issues. We can understand from Acts 19 that Ephesus was the home of the temple of the goddess Diana, also known as Artemis; where people participated in pagan worship. Acts 19 also reveals that Ephesus was a city where magic was practiced by many. So, the Christians in Ephesus were moving away from cult worship and sorcery to embracing Christianity. History also reveals that there were gnostic teachings in Ephesus at the time as can be seen in 1st Timothy 6:20. So there was truly a mishmash of wrong doctrinal teaching and St. Paul clearly addressed it in 1st Timothy 1 when he said to Timothy: “As I urged you when I went into Macedonia–remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.” Now, in their Ephesian tradition, women, and more specifically older women, used to teach these traditions to the newer generations. Unfortunately, these women would discourteously teach this mishmash of Gnostic and pagan traditions in the church in Ephesus. That is why in 1st Timothy 4, we can read Paul asking Timothy to reject profane and old wives’ fables. So, St. Paul, as a good pastor, is responding to these old women’s wrong doctrinal teachings within the church. He, therefore, uses very strong language against their actions. In this verse specifically, he asks them to continue learning but in submission. In other words, he asks them to repent from their pride, rebellious attitude and false teachings and become good humble students.

Ephesus was the home of Diana, and the leading women, particularly leading women, were teaching the pagan traditions to younger women. The Christians there were new Christians, just coming out of pagan worship, unlike the Jews who had centuries of theological tradtion. But even they had reverted to Baal and other pagan worship at times. It wasn't until the Babylonian exile that they completely rejected idol worship.

In addition there was a strong streak of gnosticism at work. This meant that St. Paul was dealing not just with new Christians, but a pagan culture and gnostic teachings within the church. And the women apparently had a leading role in teaching some of these false doctrines.

As I mentioned earlier, the Ephesians were influenced by gnostic teachings. And, there are several surviving Gnostic creation accounts which gave Eve primacy over Adam because Gnostics held knowledge in very high esteem, therefore, in their false understanding, Eve was considered a heroine because she sought knowledge by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, St. Paul, in reaction to this teaching, stresses that Adam was formed first and then Eve. And what the Gnostics consider as virtue, namely Eve eating from the tree, Christians consider as the first sin.

But when we read Timothy 1:11-15 with our 21st century mindset, we don't realise the challenges Paul was facing. All we see is a verse "women should keep silent" and "saved in childbearing", not realising the prevailing local custom that they regarded Diana as a mid-wife.

It says: “Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.” This verse could be understood once we realize that the Ephesians used to consider the goddess Diana to be a mid-wife that allegedly had the power to bring life and to take it away.

Cultural context needs to be taken into account, and not just blandly reading some Bible verses.

 

[Bob Crowley]

As an addendum to my post above, only once have I heard a Christian male take a hard line on the "the man is the head of the household".

My wife (who is Protestant) and I were at a place called Marian Valley some years ago which was the only time we've been there. Marian Valley as it's name implies is dedicated to a Marian view of things.

Marian Valley Shrine of Our Lady Help of Christians - Marian Valley Brisbane Archdiocesan Shrine of Our Lady Help of Christians

The Shrine of Our Lady Help of Christians is situated at 2541 Beechmont Rd, 10km from Canungra and south of Brisbane in the Gold Coast Hinterland. As an Archdiocesan Shrine of Brisbane, it is dedicated to Our Lady Help of Christians, a title under which Mary is particularly honoured in Australia...

marianvalley.org.au

But at one point we crossed paths with this chap who went to some length to stress the headship of the male, and as was to be expected he had a mousey wife who wasn't saying anything.

My wife wasn't impressed and it left a sour taste. I'm not as much into Marianism as some Catholics although I believe she is very important. It's unlikely my wife will go back as she's Protestant anyway, but if we did I think that episode would probably come back to her.

Generally speaking though I haven't seen Christian men in any denomination that I've been involved with taking a chauvinist view of male-female relations.

 

[ChubbyCherub]

Of course I'm not talking about a situation where a husband literally beats his wife up, but these days the definition of 'abuse' gets stretched so much that any (verbal) correction or setting boundaries setting by a husband may already be construed as emotional abuse (this is not a joke).

Be blessed sisters .. !

'Verbal correction' and 'boundary setting' is not applicable to my mom and dads relationship.

I have said, and will say again, that things in that household are egregious and there is no way I would submit to him and I really don't care what scripture says about it because a)Paul isn't Jesus Christ b)I answer only to Jesus Christ c)if Jesus had issue, I believe He would let me know in this life or the next but I would be ready with my defence of my actions given the situation

As an addendum to my post above, only once have I heard a Christian male take a hard line on the "the man is the head of the household".

My wife (who is Protestant) and I were at a place called Marian Valley some years ago which was the only time we've been there. Marian Valley as it's name implies is dedicated to a Marian view of things.

Marian Valley Shrine of Our Lady Help of Christians - Marian Valley Brisbane Archdiocesan Shrine of Our Lady Help of Christians

The Shrine of Our Lady Help of Christians is situated at 2541 Beechmont Rd, 10km from Canungra and south of Brisbane in the Gold Coast Hinterland. As an Archdiocesan Shrine of Brisbane, it is dedicated to Our Lady Help of Christians, a title under which Mary is particularly honoured in Australia...

marianvalley.org.au

But at one point we crossed paths with this chap who went to some length to stress the headship of the male, and as was to be expected he had a mousey wife who wasn't saying anything.

My wife wasn't impressed and it left a sour taste. I'm not as much into Marianism as some Catholics although I believe she is very important. It's unlikely my wife will go back as she's Protestant anyway, but if we did I think that episode would probably come back to her.

Generally speaking though I haven't seen Christian men in any denomination that I've been involved with taking a chauvinist view of male-female relations.

This is how I was taught, recently, that this verse applied. As for men who take the 'chauvinist view', we can refer to @Reluctant Theologian for an example where men do, in fact, think they are the 'leaders' of the household under all circumstances and above their wives.

 

[Delvianna]

'Verbal correction' and 'boundary setting' is not applicable to my mom and dads relationship.

I have said, and will say again, that things in that household are egregious and there is no way I would submit to him and I really don't care what scripture says about it because a)Paul isn't Jesus Christ b)I answer only to Jesus Christ c)if Jesus had issue, I believe He would let me know in this life or the next but I would be ready with my defence of my actions given the situation


This is how I was taught, recently, that this verse applied. As for men who take the 'chauvinist view', we can refer to @Reluctant Theologian for an example where men do, in fact, think they are the 'leaders' of the household under all circumstances and above their wives.

I had serious problems with 1 Timothy for a while, especially since I have my own examples of terrible male leaders. It ended up being a very lengthy study in the word used to describe Eve (Ezer for "helper") and how that word is one that God attributes to himself (Psalm 33:20). So Helper doesn't mean subordinate because otherwise, you'd be calling God that. When it came to jobs, both Adam and Eve had the same job until they were kicked out of the garden. So, they were on equal footing for roles and that's important.

Then, the concept of the man being the head as Christ is head of the church. This concept is talking about relationships. "For the husband is the head of the wife" (Ephesians 5:23). Since Paul is linking this to Christ, what did Christ do for his church? He serves and died. Christ turns "leadership" on its head. In Luke 22, Jesus asks who at the table is greater? The one who sits to eat or the one serves, and yet Christ came to serve. God's leadership is by service, not dictatorship. So technically, any marriage where the woman is serving, makes her the leader. Congrats.

Now the topic of teaching. I 100% agree with you that Paul isn't God. When you look at God's intentions, (including adam and eve that I referenced and the concept of being equally yoked) Gods intention for relationships are built on doing the same thing. You are a team, not a leader/subordinate. So Paul argues why he doesn't want women to teach and its because he's essentially saying since Eve was deceived, women would teach deceptive doctrine. But as others have pointed out, the environment Paul was dealing with makes sense when you have women leaders who were teaching bad doctrine. But that is not the Godly standard, that was a 1 point in time issue. And that is backed up by Pauls own praise of Phoebe in Romans where he gives her a title that he attributes to himself which would include teaching. So clearly, this wasn't a universal rule. If it was, then God wouldn't have placed women in teaching roles like Phoebe, Priscilla, Ana, Philips 4 daughters, and Deborah as examples.

I wanted to mention all of that for peace of mind at least and know you do not have to follow leadership who is not of God. God places leaders as servants to help others (as shown by their fruit and servant posture), so anyone who doesn't fit God's model, you 100% have the right to refuse as they could also technically be false brothers too.

I know this was a topic for another time, but I thought that maybe this might help anyway. God bless

 

[lismore]

But God has requirements for someone to be a leader and most men don't meet those requirements or lead how God wants them to.

I agree:

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly (James 3:1)

IMHO the modern church can sometimes appoint leaders too quickly or slickly. Being in a leadership position is a heavy responsibility with input into the lives of often fragile and vulnerable people. I have met many former churchgoers who report having a bad experience with a church leader. I witnessed bad experiences othes had in a Pentecostal church which caused me to leave.

Everything the bible says is in context. Talking about leadership in a family, it's nothing to do with any potentially unstable person automatically been given a green light to lord it over someone else.

Biblical leadership starts with service. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant (Matthew 20:26)

The church often has lost the meaning of service, because a worship service in a growing church has often been suborned into a pop concert and watered down motivational talk designed to attract consumers, telling people what they want to hear rather than sound biblical doctrine. But if it's about you or me then it's not worship or service. First God then his people, no egos. First people need to learn how to follow, before they learn how to lead.

Be a better you or let God make all things new.

God Bless

 

[CLEEB]

Then all single men and women out there, don’t marry someone that doesn’t measure up to your standards. But if you really find someone that does then follow the guidance of the spirit . Both husbands and wives will be held accountable on how they fulfill their GODLY appointed roles. I should not need to list the scriptures to anyone about this matter. The differences in gender is not meant to separate but to unite, the two become one. GOD hates divorce. The earthly marriage is a shadow of our marriage to Christ. If GODLY love is in the marriage then it will be a success.

 

[ChubbyCherub]

Thanks all for your responses.

I don't want my emotions to shut down the discussion here but, like Paul, my statements had context relative to a specific situation.

Unlike Paul, I have tried to make that clear so there is no confusion!

Summary for those new to the thread: my daughter asked about salvation being contingent on childbirth because we are sinful, easily deceived, lead others to sin (according to Paul) all the while seeing men, outside and within her own family, doing these things with no mention of their sinfulness by Paul who seems to, nonetheless, appoint these men to lead with no contingency on their salvation i.e. childbirth.

Initially, I told my daughter the rules weren't ours to question but trust in God and follow.

But, the more I thought about it, prayed about it, sought answers to it, the more my doubts aligned with my daughter because I realized there was no way men of a certain calibre will ever gain my respect, obedience etc. It just won't happen.

Then, the more I thought about where the instruction came from (Paul), the more I realized that maybe that's okay. Then, I was told it was okay because it was never meant for me/all women, in the way it has been presented by some, in the first place.

I accept that some will think that I am sinning if I don't 'submit to authority' but their definition and interpretation is not the same as what I have been provided and so I have to accept a) I am sinning but hope it makes sense to Jesus why this is and He is merciful because, unless He sees fit to correct and/or intervene, I am unyielding on this point b) realize that I (and countless others) have been taught in error and so nothing to accept, anyway.

I feel sorry for my mom that she stays in her marriage because she thinks she is sinning if she leaves despite the circumstances. I pray for both of my parents. They deeply need Jesus.

As for my daughter, I have told her about this discussion and we continue to pray and seek guidance regarding scripture.

 

[ChubbyCherub]

Then all single men and women out there, don’t marry someone that doesn’t measure up to your standards. But if you really find someone that does then follow the guidance of the spirit . Both husbands and wives will be held accountable on how they fulfill their GODLY appointed roles. I should not need to list the scriptures to anyone about this matter. The differences in gender is not meant to separate but to unite, the two become one. GOD hates divorce. The earthly marriage is a shadow of our marriage to Christ. If GODLY love is in the marriage then it will be a success.

I understand that, in the past and maybe currently with some churches, elders used to counsel young people on marriage, the sanctity of it, readiness, spiritually, financially etc.

Now, that's all left to parents who have no clue, because they weren't provided guidance and they have no way of providing guidance to their children.

The church lost it's place of importance and society has paid for that with an open ticket to marry for 'love' and divorce for any and every reason.

It's a sad state of affairs!

 

[CLEEB]

I understand that, in the past and maybe currently with some churches, elders used to counsel young people on marriage, the sanctity of it, readiness, spiritually, financially etc.

Now, that's all left to parents who have no clue, because they weren't provided guidance and they have no way of providing guidance to their children.

The church lost it's place of importance and society has paid for that with an open ticket to marry for 'love' and divorce for any and every reason.

It's a sad state of affairs!

Yes it is. But don’t lose heart, Christ will straighten it all out in the future. Until then we live in accordance with our GODS will.

 

[Delvianna]

Thanks all for your responses.

I don't want my emotions to shut down the discussion here but, like Paul, my statements had context relative to a specific situation.

Unlike Paul, I have tried to make that clear so there is no confusion!

Summary for those new to the thread: my daughter asked about salvation being contingent on childbirth because we are sinful, easily deceived, lead others to sin (according to Paul) all the while seeing men, outside and within her own family, doing these things with no mention of their sinfulness by Paul who seems to, nonetheless, appoint these men to lead with no contingency on their salvation i.e. childbirth.

Initially, I told my daughter the rules weren't ours to question but trust in God and follow.

But, the more I thought about it, prayed about it, sought answers to it, the more my doubts aligned with my daughter because I realized there was no way men of a certain calibre will ever gain my respect, obedience etc. It just won't happen.

Then, the more I thought about where the instruction came from (Paul), the more I realized that maybe that's okay. Then, I was told it was okay because it was never meant for me/all women, in the way it has been presented by some, in the first place.

I accept that some will think that I am sinning if I don't 'submit to authority' but their definition and interpretation is not the same as what I have been provided and so I have to accept a) I am sinning but hope it makes sense to Jesus why this is and He is merciful because, unless He sees fit to correct and/or intervene, I am unyielding on this point b) realize that I (and countless others) have been taught in error and so nothing to accept, anyway.

I feel sorry for my mom that she stays in her marriage because she thinks she is sinning if she leaves despite the circumstances. I pray for both of my parents. They deeply need Jesus.

As for my daughter, I have told her about this discussion and we continue to pray and seek guidance regarding scripture.

With the childbearing thing, theres FAR too many problems with the interpretation that unless you have children, you aren't saved. What about women who can't have kids? That is like saying God created them for the sole purpose to condemn them to hell. I know Calvinists agree with that stance, but then that is just an evil God in my opinion. So ultimately then, there is an issue when other scripture and dozens of other passages talk about the saving faith and grace of Jesus. That forms a contradiction. So just on surface level there are issues and it bugs me that people teach to accept Pauls 1 sentence and just toss out the entire new testament because then it doesn't apply.

I really like this explanation, so I'm going to post it with the Link that maybe it will edify you too Link

The most grammatically appealing option is to understand Paul as saying that women are “saved from deception” by properly valuing the domestic sphere. That seems to be the meaning that makes the best sense of the immediate context. Paul has just said that Eve was deceived, now he says that the daughters of Eve will be saved from deception by properly valuing the domestic sphere and continuing on in faith, love and holiness with self control.

The reason why that makes the most sense is because during that time, women were not getting married or having children and instead, were leaders in the cult of Diana (Artemis). They were also promoting the lifestyle being a single woman (sound familiar?? *cough* today's 'women empowerment' *cough*) So Paul again, was addressing the issues for that particular place and culture and he's saying that if women reject that cult culture, that they would be saved from the deception that the cult was going on about and ultimately, be saved in a salvation sense "if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety".