What is the true congregation?

[CLEEB]

Acts 2:47 Who added to the number ? Such as should be saved. Acts 2:39 all who the Lord our GOD shall call. The saints are a chosen people, 1 Peter 2:9 Colossians 3:12 The elect, the saints, the chosen have been personally chosen by GOD to be in HIS church. There are few of them.

 

[Delvianna]

If the concept was important to salvation, it would have appeared in the Nicene Creed, the Apostles’ Creed or the Athanasian Creed and in the writings of the early church fathers.

This is where we're just not going to agree because when I read scripture, I see something differently and don't trust in any of that ^. I can agree with the statements, but I don't form my beliefs around those statements.

 

[RamiC]

Acts 2:47 Who added to the number ?

God does this in response to our choice, anything that means Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner will do.

Such as should be saved. Acts 2:39 all who the Lord our GOD shall call. The saints are a chosen people, 1 Peter 2:9 Colossians 3:12 The elect, the saints, the chosen have been personally chosen by GOD to be in HIS church.

Yes

There are few of them.

No,

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands." Revelation 7 - 9 NIV

 

[jonojim1337]

First of all, I think that any church that has the apostolic succession, as the laying of hands is the method by which one is ordained within the Church, is more true than the ones that don’t have it. And I think it’s pretty audacious, for any Christian, to separate himself from the Church that Christ founded with his own hands.

That being said, we’re left with three denominations within the Apostolic Church. Which one is the true one?

While no individual or congregation is perfect, I would say that fulfilling the words of Christ to give to Caesar that which is Caesar’s goes a long way. This also fulfills Romans 13.

And by Caesar I mean the actual hiers of Rome, not the usurpers.

So in that case you have to do the math, and some reading. Maybe follow the latest research at MSU, I dunno. You do you.

 

[The Liturgist]

First of all, I think that any church that has the apostolic succession, as the laying of hands is the method by which one is ordained within the Church, is more true than the ones that don’t have it. And I think it’s pretty audacious, for any Christian, to separate himself from the Church that Christ founded with his own hands.

That being said, we’re left with three denominations within the Apostolic Church. Which one is the true one?

Actually, we have a lot more than that, but even excluding Protestant denominations like the Church of England and the Church of Sweden which have or had Apostolic Succession according to the model of St. Augustine (but not that of St. Cyprian of Carthage), that leaves us with Eastern Orthodox, several groups or Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, Russian Old Rite Orthodox (specifically, the two hierarchies which have their own Metropolitan and bishops and are not edinovertsy, nor the Priestless Old Believers or Molokans), the Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Malankara Independent Syrian Church, the Roman Catholics, the Old Catholics of the liberal Union of Utrecht, and the conservative Old Catholics (Polish National Catholics in the US and the Norwegian Catholics in Norway) and several smaller canonically isolated or schismatic Old Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches.

While no individual or congregation is perfect, I would say that fulfilling the words of Christ to give to Caesar that which is Caesar’s goes a long way.

That’s not a widely used argument among Eastern Orthodox, because Christ was talking about paying taxes, not endorsing the Roman government, and the other issue with that argument is the Eastern Orthodox Church historically existed in countries which were at times at war with the Eastern Roman Empire, or which were ruled by other monarchs, for example, the Bulgarians, Serbians, Georgians, and later Kievan Rus, the Muscovy Rus, the later Kingdom of Greece, and other states, who were or are unquestionably Orthodox.

 

[jonojim1337]

Actually, we have a lot more than that, but even excluding Protestant denominations like the Church of England and the Church of Sweden which have or had Apostolic Succession according to the model of St. Augustine (but not that of St. Cyprian of Carthage), that leaves us with Eastern Orthodox, several groups or Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, Russian Old Rite Orthodox (specifically, the two hierarchies which have their own Metropolitan and bishops and are not edinovertsy, nor the Priestless Old Believers or Molokans), the Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Malankara Independent Syrian Church, the Roman Catholics, the Old Catholics of the liberal Union of Utrecht, and the conservative Old Catholics (Polish National Catholics in the US and the Norwegian Catholics in Norway) and several smaller canonically isolated or schismatic Old Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches.

What’s the model of St. Augustine?

That’s not a widely used argument among Eastern Orthodox, because Christ was talking about paying taxes, not endorsing the Roman government, and the other issue with that argument is the Eastern Orthodox Church historically existed in countries which were at times at war with the Eastern Roman Empire, or which were ruled by other monarchs, for example, the Bulgarians, Serbians, Georgians, and later Kievan Rus, the Muscovy Rus, the later Kingdom of Greece, and other states, who were or are unquestionably Orthodox.

Who says this is only about taxes? My recollection is that this was an issue about his image, that is, what belongs to Caesar.

I’m well aware of the conflicts between various Christians. These were exclusively wars of succession, even if they on the surface level appear to be doctrinal disputes.

 

[CLEEB]

What’s the model of St. Augustine?



Who says this is only about taxes? My recollection is that this was an issue about his image, that is, what belongs to Caesar.

I’m well aware of the conflicts between various Christians. These were exclusively wars of succession, even if they on the surface level appear to be doctrinal disputes.

James 4:1-5 Galatians 5:17 Romans 8:7 Matthew 5:18-20 Mark 7:21-23 1 John 2:16 Jeremiah 17:9 Isaiah 57:20-21 Romans 7:5-23 ———— Matthew 5:44-45 James 2:8 Isaiah 2:4 Micah 4:3 Matthew 5:9 James 3:18 Psalm 46:9

 

[The Liturgist]

What’s the model of St. Augustine?

That Apostolic succession is transmitted regardless of the ecclesial standing of the bishop; it was part of his argument against the Donatists.

St. Cyprian of Carthage insisted that only Orthodox bishops could transmit Apostolic succession.

Who says this is only about taxes? My recollection is that this was an issue about his image, that is, what belongs to Caesar.

The three Synoptic Gospels - those according to St. Matthew the Apostle, St. Mark the Evangelist, and St. Luke the Evangelist.

Specifically, quoting from the Gospel According to Mark, Mark ch. 12, v. 13 - 17

13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words.
14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax b to Caesar or not?
15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?” But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.”
16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied.
17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him


In other words, it relates to paying taxes to the legitimate government authority, whoever that is.

 

[The Liturgist]

What’s the model of St. Augustine?



Who says this is only about taxes? My recollection is that this was an issue about his image, that is, what belongs to Caesar.

I’m well aware of the conflicts between various Christians. These were exclusively wars of succession, even if they on the surface level appear to be doctrinal disputes.

By the way which jurisdiction are you a member of?

 

[jonojim1337]

That Apostolic succession is transmitted regardless of the ecclesial standing of the bishop; it was part of his argument against the Donatists.

St. Cyprian of Carthage insisted that only Orthodox bishops could transmit Apostolic succession.

Ok, so can you elaborate what ecclesial standing you are talking about here? I’m Orthodox, and as far as I know, we consider the other denominations of the Apostolic faith to be just that, Apostolic. This is true regardless if we are in communion with them or not.

The three Synoptic Gospels - those according to St. Matthew the Apostle, St. Mark the Evangelist, and St. Luke the Evangelist.

Specifically, quoting from the Gospel According to Mark, Mark ch. 12, v. 13 - 17

13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words.
14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax b to Caesar or not?
15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?” But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.”
16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied.
17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him


In other words, it relates to paying taxes to the legitimate government authority, whoever that is.

Ok. So their TRAP was related to taxes, but his ANSWER is related to everything that is Caesar’s.

 

[Chris35]

Paul pretty clear.

9But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God

 

[jonojim1337]

Paul pretty clear.

9But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God

Yes, when it comes to our salvation, it is not dependent upon our ecclesiastical adherence, but our faith in Christ. This doesn’t negate however that some are ordained priests, some kings, and some, are simply saved through faith in his Grace.

 

[jonojim1337]

James 4:1-5 Galatians 5:17 Romans 8:7 Matthew 5:18-20 Mark 7:21-23 1 John 2:16 Jeremiah 17:9 Isaiah 57:20-21 Romans 7:5-23 ———— Matthew 5:44-45 James 2:8 Isaiah 2:4 Micah 4:3 Matthew 5:9 James 3:18 Psalm 46:9

Sorry, I don’t get what you are trying to say with these verses. What does this have to do with the ordinance of God put forth in Acts?

 

[CLEEB]

Sorry, I don’t get what you are trying to say with these verses. What does this have to do with the ordinance of God put forth in Acts?

Study what these verses say and compare them with the what the line of conversation has been.

 

[jonojim1337]

Study what these verses say and compare them with the what the line of conversation has been.

“Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, f“The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?”

No one here has denied that that God is a jealous god and that all sin will be accounted for. The other verses seem to be saying the same thing in different manners.

 

[CLEEB]

“Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, f“The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?”

No one here has denied that that God is a jealous god and that all sin will be accounted for. The other verses seem to be saying the same thing in different manners.

Given the violent history of both church and state how does that mesh with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles ?

 

[jonojim1337]

Given the violent history of both church and state how does that mesh with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles ?

Well, that is a large topic. To give you a short answer, it has mostly been a war between principalities of the Empire where some simply failed to follow the ordinance of God as regards to the governing authorities i.e. rulers.

There are cases however, such as St. Lawrence, who, in my opinion, failed to honor the authorities in a sufficient manner. Knowing the prefect was on his way to collect Church goods, he decided to give it all to the poor, in defiance. This has fallen under the category of Christian persecution, however, he was not persecuted for his faith in Christ but rather his audacity before the authorities. Of course no one can deny his act of mercy and I am in no way saying he doesn’t deserve to be saintified, but maybe he didn’t have to give it all away, or maybe the prefect could’ve taken the goods he presented, but in any case, this was a personal quarrel and not a persecution because of a confessed faith in Christ.

Likewise there are many such cases where personal quarrels around what I would consider petty matters that caused tension between individual Christians and the authorities that didn’t immediately entail their faith in Christ. Another such example would be if the relatives of Christ deserve an elevated status and veneration as well.

So there was some quarreling.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ok, so can you elaborate what ecclesial standing you are talking about here? I’m Orthodox, and as far as I know, we consider the other denominations of the Apostolic faith to be just that, Apostolic. This is true regardless if we are in communion with them or not.

I’m also Orthodox. Specifically, St. Cyprian’s view, which is preferred by most Orthodox jurisdictions, is that Apostolic Succession requires Orthodoxy, unlike the view of St. Augustine. Whether or not an Orthodox church would regard another as Apostolic depends, for example, the Antiochian Orthodox have a very close relationship with the Syriac Orthodox, the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria have a very close relationship with the Coptic Orthodox (while the Church of Greece has a bishop who has accused the Copts of heresies that the Coptic Orthodox church is innocent of), and the Ecumenical Patriarchate has developed a very close relationship with the Roman Catholic Church.

Which specific Eastern Orthodox church are you a member of, to be clear? I’m a member of the Orthodox Church in America, which is the autocephalous Orthodox Church (granted autocephaly by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1970) that is the canonical church in Alaska, and elsewhere in the US is one of several Orthodox churches along with ROCOR, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese (Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, which manages a few other jurisdictions in North America such as the UOCNA and ACROD), the Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Romanian Orthodox, the Bulgarian Orthodox and the Georgian Orthodox, and the Patriarchal parishes of the Moscow Patriarchate (I believe that’s a complete list of canonical Orthodox churches in North America). Prior to the rise of the Soviet Union the whole area was basically the canonical territory of the Russian church, but in the chaos that followed the Bolshevik takeover, we wound up with the irregular situation of competing jurisdictions, which also developed in Western Europe and the other lands of the diaspora.

Since you’re in Sweden, you could be a member of one of several Eastern Orthodox churches - this is relevant because I can link you to specific information for that church relating to the issue of the role of the Roman Empire, views on ecumenical relations, and so on.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ok, so can you elaborate what ecclesial standing you are talking about here? I’m Orthodox, and as far as I know, we consider the other denominations of the Apostolic faith to be just that, Apostolic. This is true regardless if we are in communion with them or not.



Ok. So their TRAP was related to taxes, but his ANSWER is related to everything that is Caesar’s.

Yes, but it says nothing about the church being connected to Caesar - you’re reading between the lines where nothing is written.

Indeed even from Fr. John C. Romanides with his highly Roman-centric view of Eastern Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Empire, I haven’t seen this particular argument.

 

[The Liturgist]

who, in my opinion, failed to honor the authorities in a sufficient manner. Knowing the prefect was on his way to collect Church goods, he decided to give it all to the poor, in defiance.

That’s a very controversial opinion and one which would be rejected by most Orthodox Christians. St. Lawrence is universally venerated as a Great Martyr.