What is the true congregation?

[stevevw]

From what I understand the early church was fairly insultaed from the world. From the Roman pagan politics and ideological beliefs within the public square.

So there was a pretty stark destinction that Paul and the congregations could refer to as to being a Christian. If people were being executed for their belief it was a pretty clear destinction and alien to the world.

Peter and Paul is writing to a number of churches the same message. Clement of Rome later did the same and writing as far away cities across the Roman Empire.

Ignatius of Antioch mentions around 110AD that where there is the Catholic church (universal church) there is Christ. The church fathers emphasise unity and Clement mentions that division was the beginning of sin and Christ was no longer in the church when dividied.

If we are transformed in our minds and hearts by Christ and His spirit lives in us then there is no way that people can be dividied and I think this is the key.

Today its easy to claim a Christian in words and the meaning of everything as been compromised. Even the truth itself in a postmodern society is rationalised into there being no single truth but many.

So I think as someone mentioned it is the actions more than the words. Living the words that united the minds and hearts. You cannot go wrong. If each is willing to lay down their life for Christ and others then they cannot be anything but of one mind and heart.

But where there is division I think this is bad fruit regardless of the cause. This is a red flag I think. I cannot understand how modern denominations can have fundemental differences in their beliefs. I believe is is a consequence of modern times and like everything else truth is relative.

But if the truth is so compromised to the point that its not to different from the world and becomes just one more identity group in a big pot of groups all fighting over truth. Then I think this is not good fruit and to be avoided.

I don't think Christs church is a religion though I think the Catholic and Orthodox are the closest. But a Christian within Christ church should be the same mind and spirit regardless of the church clubs we label religions and denominations.

Though I do think the church is one of the biggest deceptions satan uses to fool people away from God.

 

[CLEEB]

From what I understand the early church was fairly insultaed from the world. From the Roman pagan politics and ideological beliefs within the public square.

So there was a pretty stark destinction that Paul and the congregations could refer to as to being a Christian. If people were being executed for their belief it was a pretty clear destinction and alien to the world.

Peter and Paul is writing to a number of churches the same message. Clement of Rome later did the same and writing as far away cities across the Roman Empire.

Ignatius of Antioch mentions around 110AD that where there is the Catholic church (universal church) there is Christ. The church fathers emphasise unity and Clement mentions that division was the beginning of sin and Christ was no longer in the church when dividied.

If we are transformed in our minds and hearts by Christ and His spirit lives in us then there is no way that people can be dividied and I think this is the key.

Today its easy to claim a Christian in words and the meaning of everything as been compromised. Even the truth itself in a postmodern society is rationalised into there being no single truth but many.

So I think as someone mentioned it is the actions more than the words. Living the words that united the minds and hearts. You cannot go wrong. If each is willing to lay down their life for Christ and others then they cannot be anything but of one mind and heart.

But where there is division I think this is bad fruit regardless of the cause. This is a red flag I think. I cannot understand how modern denominations can have fundemental differences in their beliefs. I believe is is a consequence of modern times and like everything else truth is relative.

But if the truth is so compromised to the point that its not to different from the world and becomes just one more identity group in a big pot of groups all fighting over truth. Then I think this is not good fruit and to be avoided.

I don't think Christs church is a religion though I think the Catholic and Orthodox are the closest. But a Christian within Christ church should be the same mind and spirit regardless of the church clubs we label religions and denominations.

Though I do think the church is one of the biggest deceptions satan uses to fool people away from God.

There is still a remnant of the church that is basically invisible to professing Christianity. Jesus did say that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. Matthew 16:18 By the way Peter isn’t the rock, the foundation of this church, Jesus is. You are right about today’s churches. GOD calls people out of them not into them. 2 Corinthians 6:17

 

[Valletta]

There is still a remnant of the church that is basically invisible to professing Christianity. Jesus did say that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. Matthew 16:18 By the way Peter isn’t the rock, the foundation of this church, Jesus is. You are right about today’s churches. GOD calls people out of them not into them. 2 Corinthians 6:17

Matthew 16:18-19 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it.[d] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[e] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” RSVCE

Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic. The name given to Simon Peter by Jesus is the Aramaic "Kepha," transliterated into "Cephas." "Kepha" means "Rock" in Aramaic. This Aramaic name is preserved within the Koine Greek Biblical text. Thus Jesus said "You are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church." That is, Jesus used Rock twice in the same sentence. Had Jesus wished to show what you contend he simply could have said "I am Jesus and on this Rock I will build my Church." God renaming someone, such as Abram to Abraham, often comes at an important moment in Biblical history.

 

[CLEEB]

Matthew 16:18-19 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it.[d] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[e] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” RSVCE

Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic. The name given to Simon Peter by Jesus is the Aramaic "Kepha," transliterated into "Cephas." "Kepha" means "Rock" in Aramaic. This Aramaic name is preserved within the Koine Greek Biblical text. Thus Jesus said "You are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church." That is, Jesus used Rock twice in the same sentence. Had Jesus wished to show what you contend he simply could have said "I am Jesus and on this Rock I will build my Church." God renaming someone, such as Abram to Abraham, often comes at an important moment in Biblical history.

Jesus is the chief cornerstone, Jesus was referring to himself after Peters confession that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living GOD. Its not the church of Peter. Isaiah 28:16 Psalm 118:22 Acts 4:11 1 Peter 2:6 The word used in Greek allows for the use of the word “but” Strongs G2532 . It makes no sense for anyone else but the messiah to be the rock. The church can’t be built on an ordinary man. When Jesus said, but upon this rock, he was referring to himself.

 

[RamiC]

Delvianna, I agree. Many churches teach another Jesus and another gospel. The are about 45,000 different churches worldwide and are separated from each other over doctrine.

There are not 45,000 denominations. This is a link.

• These “denominations” are defined in terms of being separate organisations, not necessarily separate beliefs. This is a critical difference, not commonly noted by critics.
• The largest component (something like two thirds to three quarters) of these totals are “independent” churches, mostly in Africa. These are not necessarily different in doctrine, but are simply independent organisations.
• These estimates include national branches of the same denomination (e.g. the Lutheran Church of Germany and the Lutheran Church of Australia) as separate organisations in the count.
• There are many churches among the independent churches which would have effectively the same teachings, just different locations, different leaders, etc.

 

[The Liturgist]

Matthew 16:18-19 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it.[d] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[e] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” RSVCE

Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic. The name given to Simon Peter by Jesus is the Aramaic "Kepha," transliterated into "Cephas." "Kepha" means "Rock" in Aramaic. This Aramaic name is preserved within the Koine Greek Biblical text. Thus Jesus said "You are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church." That is, Jesus used Rock twice in the same sentence. Had Jesus wished to show what you contend he simply could have said "I am Jesus and on this Rock I will build my Church." God renaming someone, such as Abram to Abraham, often comes at an important moment in Biblical history.

Indeed, this clearly points to the Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) being the legitimate congregation, since after the Latin church separated from us in 1054, that left the other two Petrine sees, Alexandria and Antioch, and Constantinople - New Rome, the see of St. Andrew the First Called, and Jerusalem, in the territory of the EO and OO churches. The Orthodox in the Middle East are known as Romans, for they were citizens of the Roman Empire until its conquest by the Turks, and after that, of the Roman Millet, the autonomous courts that continued to apply Roman law to Christians in private matters in the Ottoman Empire (offenses against Muslims or against the Osman Bashi would be tried in an Ottoman court under the principles of Islamic jurisprudence).

 

[The Liturgist]

If you preach that salvation is works based, both you and everyone else who agrees with that, is not apart of his flock, that is part of knowing their heart. So no, not within "all" denominations are his flock. There are denominations as a whole based on their teaching, that none will be saved due to it contradicting what scripture says about salvation.

The Nicene Creed doesn’t say anything about the issue of Sola Fide or “works based salvation”, since the issue was unknown in the early church and did not become controversial until the 16th century.

 

[The Liturgist]

There are not 45,000 denominations. This is a link.

• These “denominations” are defined in terms of being separate organisations, not necessarily separate beliefs. This is a critical difference, not commonly noted by critics.
• The largest component (something like two thirds to three quarters) of these totals are “independent” churches, mostly in Africa. These are not necessarily different in doctrine, but are simply independent organisations.
• These estimates include national branches of the same denomination (e.g. the Lutheran Church of Germany and the Lutheran Church of Australia) as separate organisations in the count.
• There are many churches among the independent churches which would have effectively the same teachings, just different locations, different leaders, etc.

Indeed, many people incorrectly suppose the Romanian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Cypriot Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, et cetera, have different beliefs. They don’t.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The congregation is what Jesus said it was....those who join themselves to Him and His house "where His congregation meets" Lev23:3 will be a house of prayer for "ALL NATIONS" i.e. Those who join themselves to Him, to love Him and serve Him.

Isa 56:1Thus says the Lord:


Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”


God's Sabbath has always been a "holy convocation" Lev23:3 gathering of His people (congregation)

Which the words of Jesus always coming true and why we see with the examples of the apostles continuing the Sabbath convocation with all nations (people) every Sabbath decades and decades after the cross just as Jesus predicted Mat24:20 Mat21:13 Isa56:6-7 following in the example of Jesus Luke4:16

Act 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 18:4 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Sadly we were told the other spirit hijacked God's congregation and started doing something different where instead most people gather.

Changing God's times and laws (4th commandment) What the whole end time battle is over worship. Rev 13, Rev 14 Jesus relates obedience to God's commandments (His version) as true/false worship Mat7:7-13 Mat15:3-14

Dan 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.


Isa 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O [d]Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;

In the earthy temple the showbread representing God's Word was changed every Sabbath in the side of the north

Exo 26:35; Exo 40:22 The showbread table was positioned on the north side inside the Holy Place
Showbread changed every Sabbath Lev 24:8

Which represents God's usurping God’s worship and authority where God's sits, Mount Zion… the city of the great King… on the sides of the north. Psa 48:2

But in the end God wins and the Sabbath continues as a holy convocation -for His congregation, the saved saints who stay faithful to Him Rev 12:17 Rev14:12 Rev22:14

Isa 66:22“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

 

[CLEEB]

There are not 45,000 denominations. This is a link.

• These “denominations” are defined in terms of being separate organisations, not necessarily separate beliefs. This is a critical difference, not commonly noted by critics.
• The largest component (something like two thirds to three quarters) of these totals are “independent” churches, mostly in Africa. These are not necessarily different in doctrine, but are simply independent organisations.
• These estimates include national branches of the same denomination (e.g. the Lutheran Church of Germany and the Lutheran Church of Australia) as separate organisations in the count.
• There are many churches among the independent churches which would have effectively the same teachings, just different locations, different leaders, etc.

If there were only two churches that is still one to many. How Jesus and the Apostles described the church is nothing like what it is in the world today. You tell me, which one of these churches is the true one, the Pentecost church ?

 

[RamiC]

Indeed, many people incorrectly suppose the Romanian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Cypriot Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, et cetera, have different beliefs. They don’t.

They do it to everyone else as well,

"Critics point out that the high numbers often come from counting every national branch of a global communion as if it were a separate denomination. For example, instead of treating the Catholic Church as a single worldwide body, some tallies list it multiple times—once for each country—so that it appears as hundreds of separate denominations rather than one unified church."How Many Denominations of Christianity Are There? — Anthony Delgado

 

[RamiC]

If there were only two churches that is still one to many. How Jesus and the Apostles described the church is nothing like what it is in the world today. You tell me, which one of these churches is the true one, the Pentecost church ?

Please define "church" for the purposes of your point here. You see at the origin point of the church, the first Pentecost, there is only the one group of people present to become the first Christians and experience that. Things have changed since that moment, but there appears to be no instruction that time must be frozen right there so that all future believers are only ever at that very gathering.

Granted it would have been a thing to be there, the most exiting open gathering in history, but what do you suggest someone does if they want to be at church on Sunday morning in 2025? Is it that they should stay alone, because they must pick one, from some different options? Is it that they should compromise and select only the one most similar to the first one ever? Since adapted DeLoreans with flux-capacitators are not in real life to take us back to the beginning....

 

[Delvianna]

The Nicene Creed doesn’t say anything about the issue of Sola Fide or “works based salvation”, since the issue was unknown in the early church and did not become controversial until the 16th century.

I disagree since it's argued in scripture in verses like Ephesians 2:8-9. If the concept wasn't until the 16th century, then you wouldn't have verses that speak against it.

 

[CLEEB]

The doctrines taught by the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles remain the same. As I previously explained, no one can join the church because GOD must put you in. It is the Lord who adds to the church such as should be saved. Not even the Apostles chose Jesus, he chose them. Many are called but few are chosen. What is frozen is the truth of GOD, it never changes. What began on Pentecost has continued to this day and under the same gospel message Jesus preached. Doctrines that have been have changed are the result of the rise of the great deception that was beginning even when the Apostles were yet alive. The deception grew over the years to produce the mass confusion see today. This was the devil attacking the woman who brought forth the man child. The great deception isn’t something that happens in the end time all of a sudden, it has been since the time of Apostle John who said, even now many antichrists have come. Satan has blinded the minds of people to turn them away from the gospel. 2 Corinthians 4:4 and turn them away as Jude says, Jude 1:3-4 There were warnings from the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles about this and it has happened. Even though this deception is great GOD even today calls and chooses HIS saints out of this uncleanliness, out of this darkness into HIS marvelous light. Despite this deception the true church yet moves forward being guided and taught by the anointing, the spirit of the FATHER through Jesus. John 6:44-45 All human ministers have been eliminated from this process as they are the main tool used by Satan to deceive. Only GOD and Christ control the church and its members have no need that any man teach them. In this way deception cannot enter, it’s not possible to deceive the elect. Do you the church you belong to is the one true Pentecost church, if not, then why are you there ? If you do believe it is then all other churches are not. There are many churches to choose from, which one is the true ? The answer is none of them but you won’t believe that. I had to face these things myself over 30 years ago . I was tired of being deceived by churches and out of fear and frustration prayed that GOD would teach me and that what HE taught me I would believe. This is what everyone on earth should do but they are to accustom to having some man teach them. They subcontract out their salvation to some man. The only way to know the truth is to go to the source, GOD ALMIGHTY. The spirit of GOD is what restores the truth and teaches us all things bringing into remembrance everything Jesus said . This is recorded in the gospel of John. Why go to some man when Christ died so that we can have access to the FATHER through him ? No one can come to the FATHER except through Christ and then no one can learn anything from the FATHER except through Christ and no one can teach people GODS truth except GOD through Christ the mediator between GOD and men. Human preachers, ministers, pastors set themselves up , GOD hasn’t. This information no one will believe and they will attack anyone who does. This is how prophecy has said it would be and it is being fulfilled before their eyes but they cannot see.

 

[RamiC]

All human ministers have been eliminated from this process as they are the main tool used by Satan to deceive.

What is your basis for believing this? Although I agree that clergy who are not authentic are a bad enough thing.

Only GOD and Christ control the church and its members have no need that any man teach them.

So if God called someone to lead a church, that is not a man teaching instead, they can be called to nuture faith among a group of people while God teaches the gathered people what they need to know.

In this way deception cannot enter, it’s not possible to deceive the elect. Do you the church you belong to is the one true Pentecost church, if not, then why are you there ? If you do believe it is then all other churches are not. There are many churches to choose from, which one is the true ?

There are true, false and sincere seeking believers in most Christian gathering, I would expect. I am not about to quit church just because there is now more than one variety. I was born almost 2000 years after Pentecost, Jesus can cope with this fact, I go to the same denomination as the people who inspired and guided my faith in the first place, that was what put me in with Pentecost. I am not losing sleep over other Christians connecting to the same Holy Ghost in some other place, I am too busy being delighted that they found Him too.

 

[CLEEB]

What is your basis for believing this? Although I agree that clergy who are not authentic are a bad enough thing.



So if God called someone to lead a church, that is not a man teaching instead, they can be called to nuture faith among a group of people while God teaches the gathered people what they need to know.


There are true, false and sincere seeking believers in most Christian gathering, I would expect. I am not about to quit church just because there is now more than one variety. I was born almost 2000 years after Pentecost, Jesus can cope with this fact, I go to the same denomination as the people who inspired and guided my faith in the first place, that was what put me in with Pentecost. I am not losing sleep over other Christians connecting to the same Holy Ghost in some other place, I am too busy being delighted that they found Him too.

Ephesians 4 there is only one church. Unless you are called and chosen by GOD your not in it. The teachings of Christ and the Apostles does not change over time. All human ministers are only extra mediators that are unconverted themselves and there is only one mediator between GOD and man, Jesus Christ. Many in that day will say Lord, Lord but Jesus rejects them. Matthew 7:13-14 & 22-23 Many will seek to enter the narrow door but will not be able. Luke 13:24 Many are called but few are chosen. Few are chosen but many rejected. We are to work out OUR OWN SALVATION in fear and trembling, this makes it incumbent on each person to be responsible for their own salvation, not farming it out to someone who thinks they are a pastor. The true Pentecost elect saints are called a remnant , Romans 11:5 Notice it is always the many that are disqualified, only the few are approved.

 

[RamiC]

Ephesians 4 there is only one church.

There is more than one local gathering even by the time Ephesians is written.

Unless you are called and chosen by GOD your not in it.

Yes, but He chooses those who choose him. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3-16 NIV

The teachings of Christ and the Apostles does not change over time.

The option of being at the origin point of church, the first Pentecost does. It is 2025.

All human ministers are only extra mediators that are unconverted themselves and there is only one mediator between GOD and man, Jesus Christ.

Yes, each church member would need to have or be seeking a personal connection to Jesus Christ. No human church leaders are not all unconverted themselves. There is no need for anyone to believe that they "mediate" instead of Jesus Himself.

Many in that day will say Lord, Lord but Jesus rejects them.

Yes we need to seek Jesus thinking we are Christians, not decide for ourselves.

We are to work out OUR OWN SALVATION in fear and trembling, this makes it incumbent on each person to be responsible for their own salvation, not farming it out to someone who thinks they are a pastor.

One does not need to farm anything out to a pastor in order to go to a church. Just seek salvation from Jesus not the pastor.

The true Pentecost elect saints are called a remnant , Romans 11:5 Notice it is always the many that are disqualified, only the few are approved.

"5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace" Romans 11-5 NIV. At the present time is as Romans is being written, not every moment in time that it is being read. You are quoting from a context there which is clearly about the Gentiles being included in the possibility of salvation. That is more for salvation, not less.