Trump dispenses with trials, orders military strike on alleged Venezuelan drug-trafficking boat (Now up to 2, 3, 4...)

[stevevw]

Do we? (I'm talking about you, me, and the other posters, not the US govt.) I recall claims months ago that they were smuggling fentanyl. That is virtually impossible. Fentanyl doesn't come from northern South America, it comes from *Mexico*. Cocaine (which is the term we've been using for the last few days of posts), *is* from the region. The problem is that the leadership of the US agencies involved are political appointees and keep demonstrating that they are not credible.

I find it strange how all this scrutiny is being put on the administration as though they are not credible. This is all narrative to undermine the admin as far as I see. Especially coming from some who support the past admin and we know how they used lawfare and now finding out all the ciorruption and fraud.

The Trump admin has been in for just 7 months and as far as I heave seen has historical record numbers of arrests for pedophiles, organised crime, drugs arrests, crime rates dropping, illegal immigration slowing and stopping, terrorist gangs, and even having positive outcomes on the world stage with the middle east situation and especially the release of the Isreali hostages.

If a fair and neutral observer cannot acknowledge the many positive steps towards a more safer and secure nation then they are biased. Most of the so called (demonstration of not being credible) is fake news and unfounded narratives from so called anonomous sources the legacy media never has to justify.

Hardly. As I said there is no chain of evidence provided to a court. No warrant. Nothing. Just some non-disclosed intel and a drone strike.

Thats because your holding assumptions about whats this is about. As far as I understand the the administration has reclassified the Narco drug cartels as terrorist who are posing a national security threat.

Both Biden and especially Obama and Bush all set the precedent for actions that bypass the courts in matters of national security.

Did I say that? (No.) I explained that you can't compute "number of people it could kill" because that isn't how people use cocaine. We aren't talking about some sort of poison to be added to the food or water supply like some Batman villain. Not at all.

Principally its the same. But instead of the water its into the social sphere where its absorbed. We treat any situation where for example organised crime will target a town or city to get them addicted to create new markets for distribution.

I think this is naive to say that there is no intention to harm people as part of the drug trade.

The problem is you don't know what is going on and how Narcos think. Or how bad actors and advereries can use the situation to undermine a nation or ideology they don't like. Undermine the system and create chaos. Once a nation is sor corrupted and weak they become easy targets for evil adversaries to exploit.

But I would rather trust the experts once again. The ones in the military intelligence who have assessed all this. In fact they have known it for years but the last admin was too soft and weak to do anything and actually aided in creating the chaos that is now spilling into some sities.

I can see this narrative being cultivated with those 6 reps who were more or less telling the military to defy orders. The Left is creating a narrative that is very dangerous and destructive in undermining their own nation.

We are talking about people who ultimately purchase doses for their own pleasure or relief of the addition-related suffering. The US consumes a few hundred TONS of cocaine each year. These boats carried a few hundred kilos to a few tons each.

No they were carrying several 100 tons a year. Stop trying to minimise this down to "its not so bad". You are not within the intelligence and you don't know.

This is the same narrative that I think has caused the problems. This rationalising away that drugs and crime ain't so bad, it just happens and we have to live with it. Thats how far gone the US and other nations like my own are lol.

Even if all of the 20,000 drug deaths in the US were from cocaine, these boats would represent a few hundred OD deaths each. That, of course is an over estimate for several reasons: given the route, there is a good chance this coke was going to Europe. (2) the number I quoted for usage is purchases by users, not amount smuggled out of S. America. Drug trafficking is notoriously leaky with losses at every step: street dealers, distributors, border smugglers, transport, etc.. (3, and most important) cocaine is not the principle cause of overdose deaths. There is a big jump in cocaine deaths, but that is for cocaine laced with fentanyl. Without the fentanyl in it there would be much fewer deaths.

Your spitting out a lot of unsupported data like its fact. This is all an attempt to rationalise the seriousness away. Like I said it is the Military and other intelligence agencies that have the Intel and way more than you have. Your not an intel expert.

Whenever actions like these are taken and especially in that Trump is hated so much they have to be particularly careful and therefore have crossed their 't's and dotted their 'i' s and checked the legality.

It is not an "assualt". It is drug smuggling. They do it to make money selling it to addicts and recreational drug users.

Ok so lets change the drugs to say a poisonous carcinogenic candy they were smuggling in. I can't believe that people are justifying drug smuggling lol. Or at least minimising it. Any other issue that caused around 100,000 deaths a year and a million over a generation would be a national disaster.

Everyone just put the problem to the backs of their minds and in the too hard basket. That it would sort itself out or some unreal programe like injection rooms or making it easier for them to get drugs or substitute drugs was going to fix it.

A big part of stopping drugs is stopping supply. I should know I use to be an addict and supplier. When police do raids and take out a couple of the big suppliers ie (bikey gangs usually). Then it dries up pretty quickly on the streets. So imagine a massive blow to the source. This will lead to massive supply shortages.

Of course this should coincide with prevent and rehab. Usually when supply is reduced it causes some to go onto other stuff but also some to stop. But it would be better to get these drugs off the street or at least restricted.

Which is a ridiculous notion. They are contraband smugglers, not terrorists.

Once again you don't know. The problem has become so big and organised that we don't know. With all the discoveries and connections to terroist with fraud and ant Us hate who knows.

I am pretty sure we will see some Intel coming out about the connections to terror.

That does not make extrajudicial killings the appropriate response to a law enforcement problem.

Its not just a law enforcement problem.

They won't give us the info.

Because of national security. But they will release enough to support the case.

The point is your making judgements without any evidence and this doing exactly what your accusing the asmin of doing. You have already disqualfied yourself and so has anyone else who makes unsupported claims and narratives because they hate Trump.

 

[Belk]

From the same intelligence that informed them that the boat was smuggling drugs. This is not just an overnight impulsive action. This is part of an ongoing intelligence operation. In fact the Biden administration knew all this.

But even logic tells you this has had an effect in slowing down the trade. If you threaten someone with consequences of lethal action on their operation.

It is completely unreal to say there will be no effect. The very principle of harsh consequences for defying the law is a deterrent. Its been part of the wests basic philosophy.

Its also inconsistent. If we are going to start strutinising about data as to what is moral then why has not these same people been morally outraged at the silence of allowing a million people dies from drugs in a generation. More than all major wars of the 20th century.

Why have not they acted on the clear data that shows drugs are killing 1,000s of people everyday. Why has not anyone questions the policies that have actually caused increases in drugs, crime and addiction.

But as soon as Trump takes action people start complaining about morals. Where were the morals for the last generation of people who were needlessly killed and all the devastation and damage done to society.

Like I said neither side has the moral justification to start moralising. What Trumps actions have exposed into the light of reality is how the past actions have not worked. Whatever the moral basis it has not worked and made things worse.

So this has highlighted a moral dilemma for people, for the future direction of how we deal with these issues. I think we have lost our way and become too soft. Perhaps Trump is going too much the other way. But this is the moral dilemma I think not just the US but the western world faces.

This is how big and serious these recent actions and approaches represent in the way we structure society including ethical. Which includes the whole idea of law and punishment and consequences ect in how we deal with these issues.

Wow. That is a whole lot of words to simply say you have no source.

 

[stevevw]

We have not been offered any evidence to justify a conclusion that we "know" there were drugs on the boats. It was stated, but we do not know this.

Yet we have all these people making absolute claims based on fake news.

 

[Gene2memE]

So foreign countries bringing in poison that's killed hundreds of Americans should only be addressed as a civil/criminal matter. Once again all the concern being show is for those in foreign countries invading the US, and no concern at all for American citizens.

1. I'm not an American.
2. I'm not showing concern for ANYONE. Or absence of concern.
3. My interest is in the legality of US action here. My contention is that these strikes plainly violate US and international law.
4. There are a VAST number of (legal) ways to deal with these boats that don't involve extrajudicial murder and breaking the law.
5. The "poisoning" argument seems both hypocritical and highly disingenuous when you consider things like the USA's historical funding and direct and indirect support for death squads in Latin America, the ongoing humanitarian impact of sanctions on countries like Cuba and Nicaragua, US weapons exports and US companies offshoring things like petrochemical processing and other dangerous/environmentally destructive activities.

 

[stevevw]

For Spanish names the first surname is the paternal one. If only one surname is used it is the paternal, not maternal one. So it would be "Maduro did this" rather than "Moros did this" (Unless you are talking about his mother or maternal grandfather.)

Ok, if that makes you happy.

You said the smuggling was down drastically or stopped because of the kilings. That sure looks like "ends justifying the means" to me. Do you not think the destruction of the boats is justified, and if so, what justifies it?

Lol, it was in response to someone making the ends justify the means as the measure.

That is exactly what some are doing. They are using the results as justification for it being immoral ie questioning how many lives saved and making it about what justification for the actions. Using the percieved negative results ie its immoral to kill the survivors ect.

But the consequences are just one component of the strategy or reasoning for why the action is being taken in the first place. As mentioned it appears this is related to a much bugger issue on safety and security. Even the prospects of Venezuela itself and there being peace for both nations in the future.

As mentioned if Venezuela can sort itself out then this also addresses the problems of why many are fleeing to the US in the first place. A corrupt and evil regime living next door to the US. Not a neighbourhood gand but basically an entire nations ideology directed at disrupting and threatening peace and security between neighbours.

Drug smuggling is a crime. You said something about "negotiations". Why?

Negociations or diplomacy or sanctions has been the usual tactic for the last few decades and it has not worked. As mentioned these people are corrupt and evil and have little regard for human life. Similar to terrorists.

Its got to a point where perhaps its now a national safety and security issue along with the immigration problems of unvetted people coming in as well and the fraud ect. A complete breakdown of the system which requires drastic action and change.

As mentioned due to the seriousness it seems Trump has escalated the Narcos as being the same as a terror threat to national security and safety. But not just Venezuela. A general security measure. Part of that is the issue of the Narcos and Venezuelan president allowing such threats. Including being compromised by adversaries to the US.

So I think there is much more to this and more intelligence that will come out. But I think this has been an ongoing threat and each admin ignored it and now its out of hand.

 

[Servus]

1. I'm not an American.

That's okay, lots of non-Americans are deeply immersed in what goes on here.

2. I'm not showing concern for ANYONE. Or absence of concern.

Okay you're completely indifferent.

3. My interest is in the legality of US action here. My contention is that these strikes plainly violate US and international law.

According to the scenario you've framed the situation in.

4. There are a VAST number of (legal) ways to deal with these boats that don't involve extrajudicial murder and breaking the law.

So you have lots of scenarios to work with.

5. The "poisoning" argument seems both hypocritical and highly disingenuous when you consider things like the USA's historical funding and direct and indirect support for death squads in Latin America, the ongoing humanitarian impact of sanctions on countries like Cuba and Nicaragua, US weapons exports and US companies offshoring things like petrochemical processing and other dangerous/environmentally destructive activities.

So that cancels out the US government wanting to stop forgien drug smuggling into the US.

 

[stevevw]

Wow. That is a whole lot of words to simply say you have no source.

No I just explained to you the evidence. It comes from the intelligence that has been gathered. That you dismiss this does not mean that there is no evidence.

The point being for all the moral protesting about a wrong being done the accusers also have no evidence. Yet they hypocritically complain about no evidence.

It is them who are jumping the gun and automatically looking for negatives and assuming the worse due to their own ideological beliefs in hating Trump.

If there was truely no evidence then people would not be making all these accusations and spreading false narratives like there is evidence and accusing people like Hegseth of stuff he has not done. The double standards are obvious. Its a common theme with all these narratives. They are always exposed as fake.

Thats why everything has to be explained in detail so that this shows the hypocracy. But then I could just keep things short and say anyone who is objecting has no moral justification and give no explanation.

I think thats what I will do from now on. Just dismiss it all as being disqualified due to having no moral ground to stand on.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Do you know the process involved in transporting drugs in the Caribbean or are you just spitballing?

I've seen the images of the boats that were hit, and I have a general familiarity with the capabilities of such boats, such that I feel confident in saying that none of those boats were going to the US.

Why? Do you know the process involved in transporting drugs in the Caribbean? Or are you just spitballing?

 

[Belk]

No I just explained to you the evidence. It comes from the intelligence that has been gathered. That you dismiss this does not mean that there is no evidence.

The point being for all the moral protesting about a wrong being done the accusers also have no evidence. Yet they hypocritically complain about no evidence.

It is them who are jumping the gun and automatically looking for negatives and assuming the worse due to their own ideological beliefs in hating Trump.

If there was truely no evidence then people would not be making all these accusations and spreading false narratives like there is evidence and accusing people like Hegseth of stuff he has not done. The double standards are obvious. Its a common theme with all these narratives. They are always exposed as fake.

Thats why everything has to be explained in detail so that this shows the hypocracy. But then I could just keep things short and say anyone who is objecting has no moral justification and give no explanation.

I think thats what I will do from now on. Just dismiss it all as being disqualified due to having no moral ground to stand on.

Yes, amazingly enough when you post no source for your claims I dismiss it. I don't care about your claims of hypocrisy and moral high ground. I care about the source of your information. The US intel community is not sharing their findings with you directly so where are you getting said information?

 

[Servus]

I've seen the images of the boats that were hit, and I have a general familiarity with the capabilities of such boats, such that I feel confident in saying that none of those boats were going to the US.

Why? Do you know the process involved in transporting drugs in the Caribbean? Or are you just spitballing?

Well I know boats can refuel at various points since the Caribbean is full of islands. I also know that drug cargo can be transferred from one vessel to another. Or from a vessel to to a vehicle. Or from a vessel to an aircraft. It seems reasonable to conclude narco cartels have sophisticated methods of smuggling. I'd say anyone who thinks we're talking about drug carrying speed boats making a nonstop trip from Venezuela to the US aren't putting much thought into logistics.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Well I know boats can refuel at various points since the Caribbean is full of islands. I also know that drug cargo can be transferred from one vessel to another. Or from a vessel to to a vehicle. Or from a vessel to an aircraft. It seems reasonable to conclude narco cartels have sophisticated methods of smuggling.

No doubt.

I'd say anyone who thinks we're talking about drug carrying speed boats making a nonstop trip from Venezuela to the US aren't putting much thought into logistics.

Or, they're just taking your words at face value:

They're high speed drug smuggling boats. Carrying huge amounts of drugs. Speeding towards the US. The southern tip of Florida isn't that far away from the northern shores of Venezuela.

Your defensiveness when corrected doesn't help change that impression.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Yet we have all these people making absolute claims based on fake news.

Go take it up with them. As it is, my point stands.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I'd say anyone who thinks we're talking about drug carrying speed boats making a nonstop trip from Venezuela to the US aren't putting much thought into logistics.

No, you didn't. Nor geography.

They're high speed drug smuggling boats. Carrying huge amounts of drugs. Speeding towards the US. The southern tip of Florida isn't that far away from the northern shores of Venezuela.

 

[Servus]

No doubt.

Or, they're just taking your words at face value:

Your defensiveness when corrected doesn't help change that impression.

Speeding towards the US, is not the same as speeding to the US. I also said anyone who thinks we're talking about drug carrying speed boats making a nonstop trip from Venezuela to the US aren't putting much thought into logistics.

You should be more carful when making critiques on wording.

 

[BCP1928]

That's okay, lots of non-Americans are deeply immersed in what goes on here.

They are. Those drug boats being blown up are not headed to the US, they are headed to transshipment points so the drugs can be loaded on a bigger vessel bound for Europe which is how the Europeans like to stop the flow by catching a large shipful all at once rather than blowing up a small percentage of the go-fast boats. That's why they stopped sharing intelligence with us, because they don't like the inefficient way we are going about it and the slipshod way we handle shared intelligence...

Okay you're completely indifferent.

According to the scenario you've framed the situation in.

So you have lots of scenarios to work with.

So that cancels out the US government wanting to stop forgien drug smuggling into the US.

What cancels it out are is the dog and pony show Trump s putting on. Most of the cocaine coming into the US by sea comes up the west coast and the Coast Guard is doing a good job of interdicting it in the usual way--stop the boat, arrest the crew and sink the boat. Blowing up boats in the Carribean is not about stopping drugs, or an imaginary struggle between the forces of good and evil, it's about some geopolitical game Trump is playing with Maduro, that's all.

 

[Servus]

No, you didn't. Nor geography.

A little while ago I was headed towards Canada on my way home from work in Western Washington. Going towards, and going to are not the same thing. However as I said, if they refueled at all the islands along the way, they could make the whole trip the same as motorcycles that ride from Los Angeles to the annual motorcycle rally in Sturgis, S. Dakota. If a motorcycle can travle 1,326 miles, so can a cigarette boat making pitstops or maybe even carrying extra fuel. It's far from being imposable. Unless one has a nonstop non-refuel boat trip in mind.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Speeding towards the US, is not the same as speeding to the US. I also said anyone who thinks we're talking about drug carrying speed boats making a nonstop trip from Venezuela to the US aren't putting much thought into logistics.

You should be more carful when making critiques on wording.

Methinks the lad doth protest too much.

 

[BCP1928]

A little while ago I was headed towards Canada on my way home from work in Western Washington. Going towards, and going to are not the same thing. However as I said, if they refueled at all the islands along the way, they could make the whole trip the same as motorcycles that ride from Los Angeles to the annual motorcycle rally in Sturgis, S. Dakota. If a motorcycle can travle 1,326 miles, so can a cigarette boat making pitstops or maybe even carrying extra fuel. It's far from being imposable. Unless one has a nonstop boat trip in mind.

Those boats weren't headed for the US anyway, nor their cargos, so it's a moot point.

 

[Servus]

Methinks the lad doth protest too much.

You messed up on your gotcha

 

[Servus]

Those boats weren't headed for the US anyway, nor their cargos, so it's a moot point.

You can make up anything you want to, but that hardly nullifies anything except in your own mind.