Father, sons drowned teen daughter over her ‘Western lifestyle’

[ThatRobGuy]

Just looking over this discussion, I'd say traditional western liberalism still has a home in America - in a way thats hard to find in the Muslim world.

But..... lets not pat ourselves on the back too hard as we see it eroding from within in favor of powerful anti liberty Christian darkside impulses.

...but the fact that those impulses can be curtailed and controlled for such a long period of time compared to their Islamic counterpart is indicative of something being very different about the tone and tenor of the two religions (whether it be the doctrine itself, or the behavior of the "hero" of each text)

If the doctrinal-driven impulses were of equal intensity, the conservative Christians in the US (statistically speaking, owning most of the heavy firepower) would've done a Jan 6th-style takeover that was 100,000 times magnitude (and armed instead of unarmed) and taken over the country and turned it into a theocracy ten times over by now.

 

[BCP1928]

...but the fact that those impulses can be curtailed and controlled for such a long period of time compared to their Islamic counterpart is indicative of something being very different about the tone and tenor of the two religions (whether it be the doctrine itself, or the behavior of the "hero" of each text)

If the doctrinal-driven impulses were of equal intensity, the conservative Christians in the US (statistically speaking, owning most of the heavy firepower) would've done a Jan 6th-style takeover that was 100,000 times magnitude (and armed instead of unarmed) and taken over the country and turned it into a theocracy ten times over by now.

You don't give our Constitution enough credit.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The fact that they have allowed themselves to be, to use your words, leashed and pushed in that direction (despite having a substantial portion of the guns and societal power/influence) for decades and decades is indicative of a religion that has a better chance of being able to integrate into a secular society.

They didn't allow themselves to be pushed in that direction. They fought back and essentially lost the fight through attrition. The old stodgers died off and the younger kids grew up in an environment of egalitarianism where they could see the old fearmongering and biases for what they were.

If progressives tried to push Islamic fundamentalists in a different direction, what would the outcome be?

idk, maybe what most of that region looked like in the 60's and 70's before the zealots took over?

It seems like the longer that Christianity remains the predominant religious ideology of a region, the more secular it ends up getting over the long haul,

That's Christianity in the current manifestation of the west. That hasn't always been how Christianity worked. A big part of the reason Christianity is so widespread is that it became intertwined with the government and was forced on people for over 1,000 years.

where as with Islam, it's a fast & furious move in the other direction in many cases.

....in areas that don't have strong institutions and/or traditions of liberalism.

It ties into what I mentioned before, a difference in the style of the doctrine. The Jesus of the Bible wasn't a politician, and he made no prescriptions for conquest or forced conversion at gun point, and established no moral duty to consolidate power (a lot of the focus was on the kingdom to come after life, not the kingdoms here that are on earth), as where Islam was basically tailor made to be a religious and political conglomerate. (which makes sense given that Muhammed was both a politician and a religious leader, and conquest was very much a part of the rubric)

You're describing Christians as if they're all left-leaning Catholics or mainline protestants, or maybe evangelicals prior to the 1970's. What you described doesn't at all jive with how a lot of contemporary evangelicals think, especially those who've been influenced by charismatic/Dominionist/NAR theology (which is most of them to one degree or another), which is very explicit about its desire to amass power for the sake of exerting influence and advancing their idea of God's kingdom.

Evangelicals have been seeking to amass political power since at least since the Moral Majority, but it had previously been couched in terms of preserving the family, warding off evil, etc (though I'm cynical enough to not believe those excuses). It's only been more recently that they've developed a theology of amassing power.

 

[Valletta]

Nothing then. Thought so.

Moving on.

"The Sixsmiths of this world are not at all angry about the mass killings and the mass burnings of unborn babies going on today right before our eyes. No, they are too busy fabricating stories about nuns sexually assaulting young women, stealing their kids, and dumping their bodies in septic tanks. It tells us a great deal about the current state of anti-Catholicism that such bull is not only accepted, it is welcomed as affirmation of the venality of the Catholic Church."

DEBUNKING THE "MASS GRAVE" STORY - Catholic League

To read Donohue's full account of this story, see the "Special Reports" section on the Catholic League's website.

www.catholicleague.org

 

[Nithavela]

"The Sixsmiths of this world are not at all angry about the mass killings and the mass burnings of unborn babies going on today right before our eyes. No, they are too busy fabricating stories about nuns sexually assaulting young women, stealing their kids, and dumping their bodies in septic tanks. It tells us a great deal about the current state of anti-Catholicism that such bull is not only accepted, it is welcomed as affirmation of the venality of the Catholic Church."

DEBUNKING THE "MASS GRAVE" STORY - Catholic League

To read Donohue's full account of this story, see the "Special Reports" section on the Catholic League's website.

www.catholicleague.org

I can't take a site seriously that claims to defend the catholic church and then has every second story dealing with transsexuals.

 

[Hans Blaster]

"The Sixsmiths of this world are not at all angry about the mass killings and the mass burnings of unborn babies going on today right before our eyes. No, they are too busy fabricating stories about nuns sexually assaulting young women, stealing their kids, and dumping their bodies in septic tanks. It tells us a great deal about the current state of anti-Catholicism that such bull is not only accepted, it is welcomed as affirmation of the venality of the Catholic Church."

DEBUNKING THE "MASS GRAVE" STORY - Catholic League

To read Donohue's full account of this story, see the "Special Reports" section on the Catholic League's website.

www.catholicleague.org

I'm not saying you are wrong, but you are *definitely* going to need a better source than Bill Donahue's one man crusade for the defense of Holy Mother Church (aka, the "Catholic League"). Last I saw he was still denying that priests sexually abused children.

 

[Valletta]

I can't take a site seriously that claims to defend the catholic church and then has every second story dealing with transsexuals.

Pesky facts.

 

[Valletta]

Last I saw he was still denying that priests sexually abused children.

Absolutely false. Who told you that?

 

[durangodawood]

...but the fact that those impulses can be curtailed and controlled for such a long period of time compared to their Islamic counterpart is indicative of something being very different about the tone and tenor of the two religions (whether it be the doctrine itself, or the behavior of the "hero" of each text)

If the doctrinal-driven impulses were of equal intensity, the conservative Christians in the US (statistically speaking, owning most of the heavy firepower) would've done a Jan 6th-style takeover that was 100,000 times magnitude (and armed instead of unarmed) and taken over the country and turned it into a theocracy ten times over by now.

Generally I agree with this. I don't think the worst of popular Christian theocratic impulses reach 20% of Taliban or Islamic Revolution levels of oppression. And the scriptures of Islam validate theocratic impulses a lot more the Christian scriptures do.

Thats hardly comforting tho, when we observe our own society.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Absolutely false. Who told you that?

My eyes, the "last time I saw". Donohue is willing to defend any depravity of the Church.

 

[Nithavela]

My eyes, the "last time I saw". Donohue is willing to defend any depravity of the Church.

Pesky facts.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Generally I agree with this. I don't think the worst of popular Christian theocratic impulses reach 20% of Taliban or Islamic Revolution levels of oppression. And the scriptures of Islam validate theocratic impulses a lot more the Christian scriptures do.

Thats hardly comforting tho, when we observe our own society.

I still maintain that some of this pessimism comes from looking at things through a very recent lens.

I'm trying to remember who coined the phrase:
"Two things are almost always true in America, things are almost always getting better, people almost always think things are getting worse"

In reality, things have still trended toward progress with a few little peaks and dips along the way.


If you had a time machine and could go back (not even that far back, just to the mid-80s), and tell progressive minded people from that era -- the ones stuck living in the era of the Jerry Fallwell-style "Moral Majority" -- about the current state of affairs, what do you think that would be like and what would their reaction be?


"Well, 35 years into the future,
--we live in a time where gay marriage is legal and even over half of republicans don't have a problem with it
--they did overturn row v. wade unfortunately, but a bunch of states, even several red states, passed ballot measures to enshrine it in their state constitutions
--weed is legal now, even many of the red states legalized it
--we've had a black president and vice president
--we have a electric cars, and the guy who makes the most of them? Is a golden boy of the right wing...go figure
--nobody from either party is hung up on naughty words in music anymore
--we're up to having over 70 of the Fortune 500 companies being led by women or people of color
--for the first time ever, substantial portions of both parties are taking a more critical look at Israel
--the current President, the one who the progressives of our time in the future get REALLY bent out of shape about - and think is the most racist/sexist/homophobic administration ever, ...yeah, he unapologetically built a cabinet that includes women, gays, and people of color, and the republicans didn't seem to be too bothered by it. And you'll never guess who it is... that's Casino guy from Atlantic City with the crazy hair who's currently in your party, can you believe it?"


What do you think their response would be? I would imagine it'd be mind-blowing for them and it'd be something along the lines of "Take me back to the future with you, it sounds like the republicans in your time are further along than the democrats we have right now in 1986... we've still got that Al Gore dude and his wife calling senate hearings to try to ban Prince's Purple Rain album"

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You don't give our Constitution enough credit.

If the land that is now the US had been attained via conquest by Muslims instead of Christians & Deists, do you think such a document would've ever been drafted (with concepts like separation of church and state, and checks and balances), or would it have followed the pattern of other Muslim conquest, where after the "convert or die" phase of the process is over, the first thing to be done is establish a cleric who will rule with an iron fist and harshly punish those who step out of line based on a religious code that also acts as a legal code?

 

[BCP1928]

If the land that is now the US had been attained via conquest by Muslims instead of Christians & Deists, do you think such a document would've ever been drafted (with concepts like separation of church and state, and checks and balances), or would it have followed the pattern of other Muslim conquest, where after the "convert or die" phase of the process is over, the first thing to be done is establish a cleric who will rule with an iron fist and harshly punish those who step out of line based on a religious code that also acts as a legal code?

Here are some examples:

• Indonesia: As the world's largest Muslim-majority country, Indonesia is a prominent example of a functioning, secular, and pluralistic democracy. It has successfully held multiple free elections and experienced peaceful transitions of power since transitioning from an authoritarian regime in the late 1990s.
• Bangladesh: Bangladesh is also generally considered an electoral democracy with secular principles enshrined in its constitution, though it faces political challenges.
• Senegal: Senegal has a long history of stability and multi-party democracy, even electing a Christian president despite a more than 92% Muslim population, highlighting its strong secular traditions and tolerance.
• Albania and Kosovo: These European countries have Muslim majorities but are officially secular states with democratic systems.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Here are some examples:

• Indonesia: As the world's largest Muslim-majority country, Indonesia is a prominent example of a functioning, secular, and pluralistic democracy. It has successfully held multiple free elections and experienced peaceful transitions of power since transitioning from an authoritarian regime in the late 1990s.
• Bangladesh: Bangladesh is also generally considered an electoral democracy with secular principles enshrined in its constitution, though it faces political challenges.
• Senegal: Senegal has a long history of stability and multi-party democracy, even electing a Christian president despite a more than 92% Muslim population, highlighting its strong secular traditions and tolerance.
• Albania and Kosovo: These European countries have Muslim majorities but are officially secular states with democratic systems.

Sure, you can find some examples, but those are outliers, not the norm.

You found 4 secular Muslim-majority countries.

Compare that to the 5 that are full blown Authoritarian Theocracies, and the 20+ that have Islam as an official state religion and enforce varying degrees of Sharia law.

And I would argue that some of your examples aren't good ones.

Bangladesh has Islam declared as it's official state religion, that's not very secular.

It's also worth pointing out that just because some secular principles are mentioned in certain documents, doesn't mean they're being adhered to.

Case in point:

Constitution of North Korea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hey, look at all these rights that North Koreans have! Is says so in their foundational documents and according to their "official positions".

 

[BCP1928]

Sure, you can find some examples, but those are outliers, not the norm.

You found 4 secular Muslim-majority countries.

Compare that to the 5 that are full blown Authoritarian Theocracies, and the 20+ that have Islam as an official state religion and enforce varying degrees of Sharia law.

And I would argue that some of your examples aren't good ones.

Bangladesh has Islam declared as it's official state religion, that's not very secular.

It's also worth pointing out that just because some secular principles are mentioned in certain documents, doesn't mean they're being adhered to.

Case in point:

Constitution of North Korea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hey, look at all these rights that North Koreans have! Is says so in their foundational documents and according to their "official positions".

I think almost all countries have a Constitution. The thing that actually enables totalitarian states of the left or the right and irrespective of religion, is single party rule.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I think almost all countries have a Constitution. The thing that actually enables totalitarian states of the left or the right and irrespective of religion, is single party rule.

Well obviously single party rule plays a factor, but only one ideology seems to want to immediately consolidate that power with ideological components dovetailing into "this is what the ultimate creator of the entire universe wants, and it will happen at all costs and it will be punished severely if you try to impede"

I had noted before that it's not unique to just "western imperialism", there were several Muslim majority states that were part of the USSR and under direct communist "anti-western" influence, in terms of individual rights on the social issues, the marginalized groups in those nations were better off under communistic rule than they were when a handful of Muslim clerics were left to their own devices.

There's the term "toxic" that gets tossed around quite a bit, if any ideology fits that mold, it's the one we're talking about.

If adherents to Islam were 90+% white instead of "a little bit darker", progressives would squashed this years ago.

 

[Valletta]

I think almost all countries have a Constitution. The thing that actually enables totalitarian states of the left or the right and irrespective of religion, is single party rule.

Yes, in fact the Soviet Constitution of 1936 on paper gives more rights than the U.S. Constitution:

C1936 Constitution of the USSR, Part IV

1936 Constitution of the USSR, Part IV

www.departments.bucknell.edu

I think of our Declaration of the Independence as our core founding document and the Constitution as the framework.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I think almost all countries have a Constitution. The thing that actually enables totalitarian states of the left or the right and irrespective of religion, is single party rule.

There is an obscure island off the coast of France that doesn't have one.