Young earth vs Old earth?

[Job 33:6]

I believe that is one of your problems, although by no means the only one.

And I believe that in fact, it is one of your problems, among others.

 

[Lost4words]

May I ask what changed your mind? Was it anything to do with this thread, or something else previously said?

Some research...

 

[CoreyD]

Hosea 11:1 isn’t originally a prophecy about Jesus; in its own context, Hosea is looking back to the Exodus and describing how God called Israel—His “son”—out of Egypt, using their past to highlight their later unfaithfulness. Matthew quotes this verse not because Hosea predicted the Messiah, but because he uses typology, a common Jewish interpretive method where events in Israel’s history are seen as patterns that Jesus reenacts and completes. So Hosea is about Israel in its original meaning, and Matthew applies it to Jesus in a secondary, theological way—not as a literal two-fold prophecy.

Can you share with us please, what source material you are using, because that is actually saying a number of things that are not in agreement with the scriptures.
It's saying...

• Scriptures such as Psalm 22:18; Psalm 78:1, 2; Psalm 91:11, 12; Isaiah 6:8-10; Isaiah 9:1, 2 are not prophetic of the Messiah, which makes Jesus and his followers out to be liars, since they all said, these prophetic utterances were fulfilled in the Messiah. John 19:23-24; Matthew 13:34-35; Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:10, 11; Matthew 13:14-15; Matthew 4:12-16; Matthew 2:15, 16... as well as his people. Romans 9:25; 1 Corinthians 15:55 (Hosea13:14); Mark 7:6; Luke 3:3-6; John 1:23 (Isaiah 40:1-5);
• Where the Greek scriptures quote the Hebrew scriptures, these were interpretations of the Jews, applying texts to someone they felt was the Messiah, and therefore the Greek scriptures are a farce, since Jesus did not really fulfill these prophecies... In fact they were not even prophesies. So...
• Jesus is a liar, and he lied when he said I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Luke 24:27, 44 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me." John 5:39, 46
• Luke 22:37 For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels.’ Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.” is not true. This is referring to Jerusalem - Zion.

All lies! That's what your source is saying.
...and you are agreeing, when you say this.

 

[CoreyD]

Some research...

I'm interested, and I am sure the OP is also.
Would you mind sharing that with us.
Even if you don't want to get involved in the debate, just share it.

 

[Lost4words]

I'm interested, and I am sure the OP is also.
Would you mind sharing that with us.
Even if you don't want to get involved in the debate, just share it.

Just search on google....plenty on there.....woof!

 

[CoreyD]

Just search on google....plenty on there.....woof!

Lot's of interpretations are found there. I'd rather not. Thanks.

 

[sir.dante.esq]

Quote: "the new testament was written centuries later by different authors"
How can that be understood since each author was ultimately inspired by God the Holy Spirit? I recognize the fact that the writing styles were different according to the penman but the ultimate author is God the Holy Spirit is it not.

Forgive me sir but and I agree with what you are saying... I think that was what I was struggling to say all along.

 

[Job 33:6]

Can you share with us please, what source material you are using, because that is actually saying a number of things that are not in agreement with the scriptures.
It's saying...

• Scriptures such as Psalm 22:18; Psalm 78:1, 2; Psalm 91:11, 12; Isaiah 6:8-10; Isaiah 9:1, 2 are not prophetic of the Messiah, which makes Jesus and his followers out to be liars, since they all said, these prophetic utterances were fulfilled in the Messiah. John 19:23-24; Matthew 13:34-35; Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:10, 11; Matthew 13:14-15; Matthew 4:12-16; Matthew 2:15, 16... as well as his people. Romans 9:25; 1 Corinthians 15:55 (Hosea13:14); Mark 7:6; Luke 3:3-6; John 1:23 (Isaiah 40:1-5);
• Where the Greek scriptures quote the Hebrew scriptures, these were interpretations of the Jews, applying texts to someone they felt was the Messiah, and therefore the Greek scriptures are a farce, since Jesus did not really fulfill these prophecies... In fact they were not even prophesies. So...
• Jesus is a liar, and he lied when he said I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Luke 24:27, 44 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me." John 5:39, 46
• Luke 22:37 For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels.’ Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.” is not true. This is referring to Jerusalem - Zion.

All lies! That's what your source is saying.
...and you are agreeing, when you say this.

New Testament citations don’t state that the Old Testament passages were originally written as prophecies about Jesus. The prophets spoke first to their own audience and context; the NT authors later applied those texts typologically or theologically to Christ. Hosea 11:1, for example, refers to Israel’s past Exodus, and Matthew reuses it in a different, Christ-centered way. The original meaning and the later theological meaning can coexist, but the later one doesn’t replace or redefine the original context.

 

[CoreyD]

New Testament citations don’t state that the Old Testament passages were originally written as prophecies about Jesus. The prophets spoke first to their own audience and context; the NT authors later applied those texts typologically or theologically to Christ. Hosea 11:1, for example, refers to Israel’s past Exodus, and Matthew reuses it in a different, Christ-centered way. The original meaning and the later theological meaning can coexist, but the later one doesn’t replace or redefine the original context.

No source reference?
Okay. It's just you claiming you are right, and the Gospels, and apostolic writings are wrong.
It does sound like you, and I should have worked that out. Thanks, but it's takes quite a lot of self exaltation to take a position like that.

 

[Job 33:6]

No source reference?
Okay. It's just you claiming you are right, and the Gospels, and apostolic writings are wrong.
It does sound like you, and I should have worked that out. Thanks, but it's takes quite a lot of self exaltation to take a position like that.

You're wrong once again Corey.

It isn’t my responsibility to prove that the New Testament authors were not exegeting the Old Testament; the burden is on you for making the claim that they were doing historical-grammatical exegesis of the original contexts.

Matthew never says, “Hosea 11:1 was originally about Jesus,” nor does he indicate that Hosea intended it as a prophecy of the Messiah. Because Matthew gives no such claim, I’m not required to assume one.

What Matthew does say is that Jesus fulfilled the passage, and I accept that. But fulfillment does not automatically mean the original text was a forward-looking prediction. Matthew is using the passage typologically, not claiming Hosea wrote it as a prophecy about Christ. That distinction matters, and it’s a distinction Matthew himself never erases.

 

[CoreyD]

It's not my responsibility to show you that the NT authors were exegeting the OT. The onus is on you to show that they were.

I did. However, you said nothing in response to it.
I showed that you are asserting that

• Scriptures such as Psalm 22:18; Psalm 78:1, 2; Psalm 91:11, 12; Isaiah 6:8-10; Isaiah 9:1, 2 are not prophetic of the Messiah, which makes Jesus and his followers out to be liars, since they all said, these prophetic utterances were fulfilled in the Messiah. John 19:23-24; Matthew 13:34-35; Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:10, 11; Matthew 13:14-15; Matthew 4:12-16; Matthew 2:15, 16... as well as his people. Romans 9:25; 1 Corinthians 15:55 (Hosea13:14); Mark 7:6; Luke 3:3-6; John 1:23 (Isaiah 40:1-5);
• Where the Greek scriptures quote the Hebrew scriptures, these were interpretations of the Jews, applying texts to someone they felt was the Messiah, and therefore the Greek scriptures are a farce, since Jesus did not really fulfill these prophecies... In fact they were not even prophesies. So...
• Jesus is a liar, and he lied when he said I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Luke 24:27, 44 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me." John 5:39, 46
• Luke 22:37 For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels.’ Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.” is not true. This is referring to Jerusalem - Zion.

I showed you that all these texts including Jesus words speak of the words of the Prophets being fulfilled at present, or future, in the Messiah or his people.

Did Mathew ever say "hey, just so you all know, Hosea 11:1 was originally about Jesus".

In fact, he didn't.

Why did you say 'original'?
Matthew said Hosea's words were fulfilled upon the Messiah, when Joseph was told to take Jesus out of Egypt.
The fact is, when God put those words on Hosea's tongue, God is the one who had in mind the application, and for us to decide and make the claim that God meant them only for Israel in Egypt, we would have to ignore what God inspired Matthew to write, and exalt ourselves above a level of a human.
I humbly accept that God inspired Matthew to apply Hosea's words to the Messiah, because God was uttering a Messianic prophecy.

The fact is, the text in the Gospels, and the apostles writings say that the words of the prophets are fulfilled there and then, either towards the Messiah, or his people?

What you are in fact saying is that God does not use two fold prophecies, nor does he insert Messianic prophesies in the Hebrew texts, written in the Prophets and Psalms....
Did Moses really write about Jesus. Or what was that a Jewish interpretation, put as Jesus' words? John 5:39, 46

Paul quoted Hosea 13:14, as having fulfilment in the future. “Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?” 1 Corinthians 15:55
Was that a Jewish interpretation?

I leave you to what you want to do here as well.
As they say in Jamaica, "I dun wid dat."

 

[Job 33:6]

I did. However, you said nothing in response to it.
I showed that you are asserting that

• Scriptures such as Psalm 22:18; Psalm 78:1, 2; Psalm 91:11, 12; Isaiah 6:8-10; Isaiah 9:1, 2 are not prophetic of the Messiah, which makes Jesus and his followers out to be liars, since they all said, these prophetic utterances were fulfilled in the Messiah. John 19:23-24; Matthew 13:34-35; Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:10, 11; Matthew 13:14-15; Matthew 4:12-16; Matthew 2:15, 16... as well as his people. Romans 9:25; 1 Corinthians 15:55 (Hosea13:14); Mark 7:6; Luke 3:3-6; John 1:23 (Isaiah 40:1-5);
• Where the Greek scriptures quote the Hebrew scriptures, these were interpretations of the Jews, applying texts to someone they felt was the Messiah, and therefore the Greek scriptures are a farce, since Jesus did not really fulfill these prophecies... In fact they were not even prophesies. So...
• Jesus is a liar, and he lied when he said I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Luke 24:27, 44 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me." John 5:39, 46
• Luke 22:37 For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels.’ Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.” is not true. This is referring to Jerusalem - Zion.

I showed you that all these texts including Jesus words speak of the words of the Prophets being fulfilled at present, or future, in the Messiah or his people.


Why did you say 'original'?
Matthew said Hosea's words were fulfilled upon the Messiah, when Joseph was told to take Jesus out of Egypt.
The fact is, when God put those words on Hosea's tongue, God is the one who had in mind the application, and for us to decide and make the claim that God meant them only for Israel in Egypt, we would have to ignore what God inspired Matthew to write, and exalt ourselves above a level of a human.
I humbly accept that God inspired Matthew to apply Hosea's words to the Messiah, because God was uttering a Messianic prophecy.

The fact is, the text in the Gospels, and the apostles writings say that the words of the prophets are fulfilled there and then, either towards the Messiah, or his people?

What you are in fact saying is that God does not use two fold prophecies, nor does he insert Messianic prophesies in the Hebrew texts, written in the Prophets and Psalms....
Did Moses really write about Jesus. Or what was that a Jewish interpretation, put as Jesus' words? John 5:39, 46

Paul quoted Hosea 13:14, as having fulfilment in the future. “Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?” 1 Corinthians 15:55
Was that a Jewish interpretation?

I leave you to what you want to do here as well.
As they say in Jamaica, "I dun wid dat."

You spammed a whole lot of nothing. Where in Mathew 2:15-16 does it say anything about the original meaning being about Jesus?

There's a difference between the original meaning of a passage, and the fulfillment of that passage. Come on C, I'm sure you can figure this one out.

A passage being “fulfilled” in Jesus does not mean that it was originally about Jesus, and the New Testament authors never claim otherwise. When Matthew, John, Paul, or others cite the Old Testament, they are not erasing the original meaning or asserting that the prophets consciously predicted Christ; rather, they treat Israel’s history, experiences, and themes as patterns that reach their fullest expression in Jesus. Texts like Hosea 11:1, Psalm 22, Isaiah 7:14, and Isaiah 40:3 all had clear, concrete meanings for their original audiences, and the NT writers never say those meanings are replaced or superseded. Instead, they view Jesus as the culmination or climax of those patterns, not the original referent. In other words, a passage can be fulfilled in Jesus without originally being about Jesus, which preserves both the integrity of the Old Testament’s context and the theological claims of the New Testament.