There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

[sjastro]

Your go-to response to calling any criticism or skepticism on the people you glorify (you even call Petrie and King 'great men'!) 'ad hominems' shows your lack of desire for engagement with ideas or even the very idea that you could be wrong.

Notice how he refers to Chris King as Christ King, you can't get greater than that.

 

[AV1611VET]

On that lathe I could turn a piece of metal to any reasonable degree of precision you required. I know I could do it because I have done it before. But if I did not understand precision and how to measure for it, backed up by the math, then I could not do it at all, even with the most modern CNC lathe going.

Do you think it's possible that the Holy Ghost had a part in all of these ancient edifices and artifacts?

We see Him in action here ...

Exodus 36:1 Then wrought Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whom the LORD put wisdom and understanding to know how to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary, according to all that the LORD had commanded.

And about this passage ...

Daniel 1:4 Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

... notice the Israelites were teaching the Babylonians?

 

[AV1611VET]

Notice how he refers to Chris King as Christ King, you can't get greater than that.

Kinda like academia's Christopher Nicholas Sarantakos, who was lauded as "Chriss Angel"?

 

[stevevw]

Your 'joke' was about as funny as my sprained foot is; not at all.

Fair enough. Which shows people have different perspectives. But none are morally wrong.

 

[stevevw]

You know, Steve, you are missing a great opportunity. Precision can be achieved without power tools, but it can't be achieved until you know what precision is and have a reliable means to measure for it. The Egyptians had a robust metrology and the math to back it up.

Yes they had some sort of natural geometry.

They understood fractional measurement and and had calibrated, government maintained standards. How precisly could they measure? I have no idea, but you should be checking it out, because if it turns out that they could measure with serious precision, then they could produce the artifacts, and "woo" would not be required.

You don't want to go down that rabbit hole as it actually throws up all sorts of theories. You o see a common geometry related to the Golden Ratio and other natural geometry.

But thats not really the point. Anyone can measure something and you don;t need a ruler. Just a piece of string. But its putting that geometry or maths into the 3D object.

With nothing but hand tools I could build you a lathe made mostly of wood, with a few small bits of iron, and no moving parts, no wheels required.

Yes and Chris King mentions this in the video. Iron wood could be used for bearings with whale blubber as the lubricant. I am not saying some sort of ancient lathe was made. But still we are talking about a pretty sophisticated lathe in a time where there was not even a potters wheel.

On that lathe I could turn a piece of metal to any reasonable degree of precision you required. I know I could do it because I have done it before.

If you listen to Chris King he goes into some detail on how a primitive lathe could hjave been made. In the end it starts getting complicated when you start to figure out how the lathe could cut the inside, uniform wall thickness and certain angles that require a fixed cutting point and tremendous pressure.

Or require high speeds due to a lack of pressure or have longer cutting arms which loose stability and with speed will move or break. Its a lot more complicated.

But if I did not understand precision and how to measure for it, backed up by the math, then I could not do it at all, even with the most modern CNC lathe going.

Yes I am sure the ancients could measure. We see the precision in many things. The base of the Great Pyramid of Giza is nearly perfectly level, with a deviation of about 2.1 cm (less than 1 inch). Theres lots of stuff like this which shows pretty good maths and geometry. I think the pyramid is also aligned to true north.

But its actually putting those numbers into 3D reality. Ensuring the base is level as its being built. All the complexity in achieving this. Especially for such an ancient time. The list of works even down to individual blocks with incoporated geometry and maths is long.

But sometimes its not the measure or maths but the witness mark itself. No matter what spin you put on it you cannot unsee what looks like a router cut or an arc cut from some preset planer cut into granite.

Thats got nothing to do with the measure and everything to do with what the tool was. That its cutting blade or shape cut the arc or routing cut. Or scooped out the granite in the shape of a shovel and left scoop marks.

Did the Egyptians make center lathes like that sooner than we know about? Who knows? Maybe they figured out something else. What we do know is that they had a sufficiently sophisticated concept of metrology that they could have done it.

Thats why I think we should be looking at the whole picture and all these signatures I have linked. Like you said we may be unsure of how they made the vases. But when we begin to collect other witness marks of machining you begin to see a bigger picture of methods that could cut super stright lines, shave off layers of granite, cut arcs in granite, rout hard stone, and even soften it.

Then you begin to think they had more ability than we think in working with hard stones and some primitive though pretty sophisticated lathe begins to look inadequate. That if they had devices that could slice off thin layers of granite then they could machine vases.

 

[stevevw]

Notice how he refers to Chris King as Christ King, you can't get greater than that.

Man this is almost becoming some sort of conspiracy making itself lol.

 

[sjastro]

Man this is almost becoming some sort of conspiracy making itself lol.

While you cannot tell us anything about the technologies used by predynastic Egyptians for producing precise granite vases, we do know from the vases found under Zoser's pyramid they made precise bicycle parts.

 

[stevevw]

I thought I'd give this another shot, but Steve, you are a brilliant example of the Dunning-Kruger effect by proxy: you claim these people are experts that we should accept whatever they say wholesale, with no critical thinking on our own part, that you make the word 'skeptic' look like a fricking joke.

But your not apply critical thinking. You disqualified yourself on that when you tried to make out King was nothing but a bike maker and had no idea what he was talking about. Thats not critical thinking. Its a logical fallacy.

I never said anyone should take his expert opinion over everything else. I said we should include his opinion because he works in an industry that is closely related to tools and machining in making similar objects. But your completely dismissing him altogether. Not even allowing his opinion in the first place.

You are also making logical fallacies by making false claims that I am demanding that Kings opinion be the only one. There are many like demanding we find the actual device otherwise all investigations that can inform us what made them is dismissed.

Another is insisting a standard of evidence such as peer review and then making claims without peer review while dismissing peer review. Which is a double standard. This thread is full of logical fallacies.

You have no desire for critical thinking, only accepting the first 'expert' opinion that isn't the mainstream to walk into the door and accept it wholly without thought on your own part.

This is also full of logical fallacies. Again I never said what your claiming. Your creating a strawman. Show me where I said we should accept the first person who walks thtough the door or that we should accept wholly what anyone said.

I have linked maybe 20 odd different researchers or testers as well as mainstream sources. So how am I demanding only one source or to completely and blindly accept one source. This is all falsehoods. Your creating a monster in your head to put in my head thats just not there.

You're so blinded by bells and whistles and credentials that you are blinded to everything else. Your go-to response to calling any criticism or skepticism on the people you glorify (you even call Petrie and King 'great men'!) 'ad hominems' shows your lack of desire for engagement with ideas or even the very idea that you could be wrong.

This has all the same fallacies. Have you ever considered that instead of fixating on peoples reputation and credibility that you actually look at what they are saying on the subject. How they are specifically explaining the tools and machining processes for how the marks can be made. or how such a vase can be made.

Did you even get past mocking the credibility to look at the content. How about you look at what King said technically about how the vase could have been made with his expert knowledge and then critique that with your criitical thinking. Rather than spend all the time and energy finding ways to fixate on the person.

To talk to you is akin to an intellectual tarpit.

Well it would be when theres many logical fallacies. Your creating an imaginary strawman and then attributing this to me and then attacking that. I never said any of what your claiming. So if your create an imaginary boogyman then its going to appear incoherent. But its all coming from yourself to yourself.

I wash my hands of you.

Fair enough. Thats all you need to do if you don't like it. People have their own opinion and have a right to express that and not get mocked or dismissed for doing so.

 

[stevevw]

While you cannot tell us anything about the technologies used by predynastic Egyptians for producing precise granite vases, we do know from the vases found under Zoser's pyramid pyramid they made precise bicycle parts.

View attachment 373255​

Lol I did not catch on at first who Zoser was when spelt with a Z. I am thinking is this an undiscovered vase lol. Man if that were the case Christ King would be wrapped finding a precision vase with design relating to bikes lol.

A bit like the Antikythera mechanism

An Ancient Greek Astronomical Calculation Machine Reveals New Secrets

Scientists have a new understanding of the mysterious Antikythera mechanism that challenges assumptions about ancient technology

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Another is insisting a standard of evidence such as peer review and then making claims without peer review while dismissing peer review. Which is a double standard. This thread is full of logical fallacies.

What peer-reviewed articles have been dismissed without argument? What peer-reviewed articles have been dismissed at all? The one about the bracelet, no. The one about pottery advocating for turntables, no. The simulation of electromagnetic properties in pyramidal objects exemplified by the Khufru pyramid, no. The one about the use of digital photogrammetry, no. The use of piezoelectric cracking of rock, no. The possibility of using some plasters on the surface (this one I haven't touched, but I've seen others write about it). Have their been anymore peer-reviewed articles? I might have missed some. The latest foray into Egyptian acoustic energy generation haven't included any peer-reviewed articles have it?

No one of these present any positive evidence for ancient technology or lost knowledge.

 

[stevevw]

Notice how he refers to Chris King as Christ King, you can't get greater than that.

This is how far away from the meaning you are trying to inject onto me. I sort of got the Christ part as I noticed I kept adding t onto Chris. I just did it again and had to correct it. Now that may be because of my typing style (which is single finger but fast) lol. And as I have used the word Christ a lot in my typing the finger automatically goes to the 't'. Makes sense.

But what I did not see until you pointed it out was the 'King' part. Because Christ or King as in the King was not on my mind. So yes you spotted it. Christ the King and you could not get any higher. But you spotted it not me lol. But good spot.

 

[sjastro]

Predynastic Egyptian bikes might have been built with precision but had a durability issue.

 

[stevevw]

Predynastic Egyptian bikes might have been built with precision but had a durability issue.

View attachment 373263​

Not Chris Kings bikes. They are built to last like the vases lol.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes they had some sort of natural geometry.

What's the difference between natural geometry and ordinary geometry?

You don't want to go down that rabbit hole as it actually throws up all sorts of theories. You o see a common geometry related to the Golden Ratio and other natural geometry.

But thats not really the point. Anyone can measure something and you don;t need a ruler. Just a piece of string. But its putting that geometry or maths into the 3D object.

Yes, how to do that is called metrology and it is clear that ancient Egyptians understood it.

Yes and Chris King mentions this in the video. Iron wood could be used for bearings with whale blubber as the lubricant. I am not saying some sort of ancient lathe was made. But still we are talking about a pretty sophisticated lathe in a time where there was not even a potters wheel.

If you listen to Chris King he goes into some detail on how a primitive lathe could hjave been made. In the end it starts getting complicated when you start to figure out how the lathe could cut the inside, uniform wall thickness and certain angles that require a fixed cutting point and tremendous pressure.

Or require high speeds due to a lack of pressure or have longer cutting arms which loose stability and with speed will move or break. Its a lot more complicated.

Yes I am sure the ancients could measure. We see the precision in many things. The base of the Great Pyramid of Giza is nearly perfectly level, with a deviation of about 2.1 cm (less than 1 inch). Theres lots of stuff like this which shows pretty good maths and geometry. I think the pyramid is also aligned to true north.

But its actually putting those numbers into 3D reality. Ensuring the base is level as its being built. All the complexity in achieving this. Especially for such an ancient time. The list of works even down to individual blocks with incoporated geometry and maths is long.

But sometimes its not the measure or maths but the witness mark itself. No matter what spin you put on it you cannot unsee what looks like a router cut or an arc cut from some preset planer cut into granite.

Thats got nothing to do with the measure and everything to do with what the tool was. That its cutting blade or shape cut the arc or routing cut. Or scooped out the granite in the shape of a shovel and left scoop marks.

Thats why I think we should be looking at the whole picture and all these signatures I have linked. Like you said we may be unsure of how they made the vases. But when we begin to collect other witness marks of machining you begin to see a bigger picture of methods that could cut super stright lines, shave off layers of granite, cut arcs in granite, rout hard stone, and even soften it.

Then you begin to think they had more ability than we think in working with hard stones and some primitive though pretty sophisticated lathe begins to look inadequate. That if they had devices that could slice off thin layers of granite then they could machine vases.