What happens if someone dies before they became a believer, is it their fault?

[JohnB445]

For example, a young man just starting college is murdered. He didn't get to live a long life, while someone else becomes a believer in their 40's.

The person in their 40's had more time to accept Jesus, yet the young man didn't. It seems unfair, but what does the Bible say?

Was the young man probably never would have been a believer anyway? Are we sometimes saved not only because we accepted Jesus, but by chance we survived long enough to accept Jesus as our God? Or does this not make any sense?

 

[Delvianna]

Since God knows the future, and because God is just (Deuteronomy 32:4), then he would know the outcome of the persons life if they had lived a full life. But just because it was ended short, doesn't mean he doesn't give them opportunities to be saved. So it comes down to this, if God is true, fair and just, then he would know the person would never accept him no matter what, and would allow them to be killed young. I'm basing this off of God's nature for what the bible says about him.

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." - Romans 1:20

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

So in essence, believing in Gods goodness and righteousness means that the way he governs is true, right and fair and despite us not knowing all the ins and outs, we can have trust and faith that when everyone accounts for their life, judgement will be fair.

"...for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness and the peoples with equity." - Psalms 98:9

 

[RandyPNW]

For example, a young man just starting college is murdered. He didn't get to live a long life, while someone else becomes a believer in their 40's.

The person in their 40's had more time to accept Jesus, yet the young man didn't. It seems unfair, but what does the Bible say?

Was the young man probably never would have been a believer anyway? Are we sometimes saved not only because we accepted Jesus, but by chance we survived long enough to accept Jesus as our God? Or does this not make any sense?

My position isn't popular, but when has that stopped me from trying to help? I believe God has chosen, up front, who He wants in His kingdom. Those He has chosen will always choose for Him because it's in their nature to want Him.

It really doesn't matter if we die before we accept Christ. It is already established who would, if given the chance, accept the Lord. The advantage of living a full life is that it gives an opportunity for God to express the full range of redemptive activities in a person's life. If that life is cut short, God will not dock them for failing to express their full potential.

Those who aren't chosen are products of evil angels and evil men who make use of God's creation to produce human agents who are repelled by God. They naturally assume the nature of the ones who have influenced their coming into existence. According to Jesus, they are "planted by the enemy."

I do believe in free choice, but I also believe God has made His own choice, as well. And He never intended to produce rebels--just those He calls His children. Those He has chosen will be able to live with Him in paradise. Those who he has not chosen will be judged based on their deeds, some suffering many stripes and some suffering only few stripes.

The problem with not being chosen is that there is a natural propensity to reject Christ. And the result is Outer Darkness, which may be a more severe or a much milder punishment.

I know we have all heard that Hell is hideous and gruesome. But I believe we are told that the fire is simply to remove all sinners from God's paradise on earth--not to torture people. The suffering is simply the fact of being removed from Paradise conditions, along with the remorse of having done wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

For example, a young man just starting college is murdered. He didn't get to live a long life, while someone else becomes a believer in their 40's.

Each person makes their own choices.

The person in their 40's had more time to accept Jesus

True. And people living to 900 years of age before the flood had wayyyy more time than anyone has had for 1000's of years.

 

[timothyu]

Consider that most people are born and grow with a question in their mind what this is all about and is there more. This starts a journey which will or at least should either lead them into the world or away from it. Whether they find Christianity is irrelevant. it is the truth of the Father that matters and it won't be found in the traditional ways of mankind. Turning from the adversarial self-serving ways of man and elohim is key and in that lies salvation. People around the world can by choice discover and live by the golden rule,

 

[Mark Quayle]

For example, a young man just starting college is murdered. He didn't get to live a long life, while someone else becomes a believer in their 40's.

The person in their 40's had more time to accept Jesus, yet the young man didn't. It seems unfair, but what does the Bible say?

The Bible says that we ALL deserve hell, whether we understand how and why or not. "Fair" would be no mercy for some that he chose for his own purposes for that end.

Consider the parable of the Workers in the Field (Matthew 20:1-16). The reprobate get what they bargained for. God is not unfair to have mercy upon whom he chooses to have mercy.

Was the young man probably never would have been a believer anyway? Are we sometimes saved not only because we accepted Jesus, but by chance we survived long enough to accept Jesus as our God? Or does this not make any sense?

You would be hard-pressed to prove that there is even any such thing as anything happening by chance. In fact, it is a self-contradictory construct. "Chance" is human language. The fact that it occupies a spot in the dictionary does not lend the notion credibility.

"'Chance' is just a place-holder for, 'I don't know'." —RC Sproul

If God is Omnipotent, he is Omniscient (and I will argue no other god). If God is Omniscient, he knew what would happen before he started it going. Thus, he INTENDED everything that comes to pass—and that to his own glory.

 

[tturt]

Surprised when I read -
"For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification]," Rom 1:20

 

[bling]

For example, a young man just starting college is murdered. He didn't get to live a long life, while someone else becomes a believer in their 40's.

The person in their 40's had more time to accept Jesus, yet the young man didn't. It seems unfair, but what does the Bible say?

Was the young man probably never would have been a believer anyway? Are we sometimes saved not only because we accepted Jesus, but by chance we survived long enough to accept Jesus as our God? Or does this not make any sense?

It is wonderful to know: "I do not make that decision!"
God judges people's hearts, which I cannot see.
The Bible is really addressing people who could or did reject God and does not address those who never had the opportunity to reject God.

 

[eleos1954]

For example, a young man just starting college is murdered. He didn't get to live a long life, while someone else becomes a believer in their 40's.

The person in their 40's had more time to accept Jesus, yet the young man didn't. It seems unfair, but what does the Bible say?

Was the young man probably never would have been a believer anyway? Are we sometimes saved not only because we accepted Jesus, but by chance we survived long enough to accept Jesus as our God? Or does this not make any sense?

A common view is that God's omniscience includes perfect foreknowledge; He knows what you will choose, but your choice is still free. From God's perspective, He sees the future and knows the outcome of your choices, much like a person can see a story's ending but the characters still made their own decisions. God will judge everyone justly and perfectly .... He knows everything ... in that we rest.

 

[Lukaris]

For example, a young man just starting college is murdered. He didn't get to live a long life, while someone else becomes a believer in their 40's.

The person in their 40's had more time to accept Jesus, yet the young man didn't. It seems unfair, but what does the Bible say?

Was the young man probably never would have been a believer anyway? Are we sometimes saved not only because we accepted Jesus, but by chance we survived long enough to accept Jesus as our God? Or does this not make any sense?

I believe this falls into what Paul tells us in Romans 2:1-29 especially verses 6 through 16 on the individual level. We cannot say who in particular God will save or condemn by their works. Obviously God will save people based on the light given them and any good a person does is from God ( James 1:17).

In Romans 1 & 3, Paul explains the dangers fallen humanity as a whole faces in condemnation and the only certainty of salvation is in the Lord ( Romans 3:21-25).

Isaiah 64 is often referenced as to the hopelessness of human works but Ezekiel prophesied later. In Ezekiel 18:1-32 the prophet tells us that we can do what is right but we can also undo it by doing what is wrong.

 

[timothyu]

Don't forget that all who lived before Jesus' time will stand before God also. Not all will be rejected.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is wonderful to know: "I do not make that decision!"
God judges people's hearts, which I cannot see.
The Bible is really addressing people who could or did reject God and does not address those who never had the opportunity to reject God.

I agree completely with your words, but not with what you mean by some of them. There is no such thing as people who never had the opportunity to reject God, so, no, the Bible does not address them. We all reject God continually, all day long, with every breath we breath, even when we think we are accepting him, until he changes us, born again, 'born from above', raised from life to death.

 

[Jerry N.]

Could 1 Peter 4:6 still be happening?

 

[Lukaris]

Could 1 Peter 4:6 still be happening?

C.S. Lewis in his book: The Great Divorce says this is so because we are bound by time but the Lord isn’t.

I had mentioned this in another thread in post #107 ( quoting from Lewis etc.)

Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

(β) Tradition.—The historical objections to the doctrine of eternal punishment may really be reduced to one head—viz. the views of Origen. In his “De Principiis,” i. 6, this great man gives it as his opinion that even the devils will undergo a long course of purification and be saved at last...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Jerry N.]

C.S. Lewis in his book: The Great Divorce says this is so because we are bound by time but the Lord isn’t.

I had mentioned this in another thread in post #107 ( quoting from Lewis etc.)

Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

(β) Tradition.—The historical objections to the doctrine of eternal punishment may really be reduced to one head—viz. the views of Origen. In his “De Principiis,” i. 6, this great man gives it as his opinion that even the devils will undergo a long course of purification and be saved at last...

www.christianforums.com

I haven’t seen that post, but thank you for your response. It would help answer the question about all of the people who have never heard the gospel.

 

[bling]

I agree completely with your words, but not with what you mean by some of them. There is no such thing as people who never had the opportunity to reject God, so, no, the Bible does not address them. We all reject God continually, all day long, with every breath we breath, even when we think we are accepting him, until he changes us, born again, 'born from above', raised from life to death.

How does an unborn baby "reject God"?

 

[Mark Quayle]

How does an unborn baby "reject God"?

You are delving into opinion, there; it is not endemic to Calvinism. The question is moot as far as Total Depravity is concerned. My opinion as to whether an unborn baby rejects God does not represent Calvinism, even if the majority of them agree with me (and I don't know if the majority does or not).

However, I believe from the time the fetus is/becomes 'person', whether at conception or any other time, he is corrupt at the core, and any goodness or virtue there is in a person is God's direct doing along the lines of what His Attribute of Immanence implies.

 

[bling]

You are delving into opinion, there; it is not endemic to Calvinism. The question is moot as far as Total Depravity is concerned. My opinion as to whether an unborn baby rejects God does not represent Calvinism, even if the majority of them agree with me (and I don't know if the majority does or not).

However, I believe from the time the fetus is/becomes 'person', whether at conception or any other time, he is corrupt at the core, and any goodness or virtue there is in a person is God's direct doing along the lines of what His Attribute of Immanence implies.people who never had the opportunity to reject God

You said and I quote: "There is no such thing as , so, no, the Bible does not address them. We all reject God continually, all day long, with every breath we breath, even when we think we are accepting him, until he changes us, born again, 'born from above', raised from life to death.
I am just asking: "How could an unborn baby ever knowingly "reject God"??
We are talking about, "dying before becoming a believer", which can happen to an unborn baby. If you say, "We do not know", than how can you be so certain about babies one day old?

 

[Bob Crowley]

I leave the judgement to God. I didn't really become Christian till I was 28, and I am quite certain there were times before that when I would have been condemned had I died at that time.

But there were times before that when I would not be sure of the outcome. I certainly would have spent time in Purgatory.

We don't know what God's judgment will be. I think we can make a pretty good guess about Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler to use two extremes, but most of the time we're guessing.

I was thinking about this during the priest's Sunday homily which was based on Luke 21:5-19. As he read out "nation will rise against nation" I started to think of Russia-Ukraine, Israel-Palestine, civil wars in Sudan and Syria for example.

Then my thoughts drifted to World War II and Hitler's baleful influence.

But as an example of the unpredictable paths that human life can take, an old photograph of Hitler's school days came to mind. Adolf Hitler and Ludwig Wittgenstein, later to be a famous philosopher, were both in the same class. Wittgenstein's ancestry was Jewish, but his family were Catholic. Irony of Ironies, Hitler's family were Catholic. Mind you Josef Stalin was a Russian Orthodox seminary student at one time.

An AI response to "Was Josef Stalin a Seminarian?" -

Early life and religious upbringing: Stalin's mother wanted him to become a priest and sent him to the seminary. He was reportedly a capable student and even sang in a church choir.

One of the boys became the brutal, tyrannical dictator of Europe and western Russia, merciless killer of Jews.

The other became an outstanding philosopher, compatriot of Bertand Russell and the like.

Both in class in 1903, when they were school students. We don't know what is in store, nor we know what God's judgement is going to be.

As Bob Dylan's song "The Times They are a Changin'" goes, "For the wheel's still in spin, and there's no tellin', that it's namin'".

 

[Fervent]

Theologians have been wrestling with the fate of unbelievers for pretty much as long as Christianity has been around, and there are multiple camps from hard exclusivists who believe that only those who explicitly surrender to Christ will be saved, to inclusivists who believe that there are terms of salvation that allow for people to belong to Christ through some mysterious unknown circumstance, to full blown universalists. Ultimately, it's outside of our realm of inquiry and we just have to trust that whatever God has established it is just because He is just. This side of heaven, it's all inside baseball.