Young earth vs Old earth?

[CoreyD]

Of course God created everything. The question is when?

If we want a good picture of creation, as well, we can go to Proverbs 8:22-31
There, it tells us the watery deep came into existence. So, God created the heavens; He created the earth; He created the waters, and then we start from Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

So, Genesis 1:1 actually is an event the precedes Genesis 1:2, when God began his work on the earth, and the writer records everything with earth as the focus, or vantage point, with everything relative to earth.
Reading Genesis 1:14-18 then, would be understood different to the opposing arguments, which flat earthers present.

The recount of historic details in Genesis 2, destroys the six twenty four hour day arguments. Genesis 2:5-23
I'm glad we got back on track with the OP.
Thanks, man.

 

[CoreyD]

It is not as clear to me. How does it matter? I agree that we are still in the Sabbath rest of God after creating, but what would indicate that it is the longest of the seven days?

That's a good point.
In hindsight, the seventh day does not have to be the longest. Is true.

 

[CoreyD]

No, I didn't know, but I greatly respect how she presents her arguments.

What especially impressed you, may I ask? I'm sure she'd be happy to hear.

 

[Job 33:6]

If we want a good picture of creation, as well, we can go to Proverbs 8:22-31
There, it tells us the watery deep came into existence. So, God created the heavens; He created the earth; He created the waters, and then we start from Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

It tells us that the watery deep came into existence, but it doesn't say when.

So, Genesis 1:1 actually is an event the precedes Genesis 1:2, when God began his work on the earth, and the writer records everything with earth as the focus, or vantage point, with everything relative to earth.
Reading Genesis 1:14-18 then, would be understood different to the opposing arguments, which flat earthers present.

The text doesn't actually say that verse 1 is an event.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the Earth...

Verse 1 is just an introductory statement.

It's like saying in the beginning when I rode my bike...

But it doesn't complete the event. It's just saying "when God did this..." And what's important is what comes next. Verse 1 itself is not an event.

In the beginning when I walked down the street...

It's an incomplete sentence. You need verse 2.

In the beginning when I walked down the street, it was raining outside.

In the beginning when God created the heavens into the Earth, the earth was formless...

The beginning is defined by God's action. Not by the material origins of the cosmos. The story is about God, it's not about the cosmos.

If I said, in the beginning when I walked down the street, it was raining outside, you wouldn't take that to mean that it instantly began raining the moment I walked outside.

Likewise, we don't assume that the Earth instantly came into existence the moment God began to create it.

That's an interpretive possibility, but the text doesn't mandate it.

And people have debated this for centuries. Both options are grammatically possible based on the Hebrew text.

 

[Jerry N.]

If we want a good picture of creation, as well, we can go to Proverbs 8:22-31
There, it tells us the watery deep came into existence. So, God created the heavens; He created the earth; He created the waters, and then we start from Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

So, Genesis 1:1 actually is an event the precedes Genesis 1:2, when God began his work on the earth, and the writer records everything with earth as the focus, or vantage point, with everything relative to earth.
Reading Genesis 1:14-18 then, would be understood different to the opposing arguments, which flat earthers present.

The recount of historic details in Genesis 2, destroys the six twenty four hour day arguments. Genesis 2:5-23
I'm glad we got back on track with the OP.
Thanks, man.

When I wrote that it wasn’t definitive, it was because one could read the second half of Genesis 1:2 as transitional. I only speak a little Hebrew, but my wife speaks it well. She also says that it isn’t definitive. The timing is not 100% clear, and there is no reason Moses thought it should be.

 

[Jerry N.]

What especially impressed you, may I ask? I'm sure she'd be happy to hear.

Job is always very careful in how she writes her posts. She is always patient and concise and demonstrates deeper thought. I am also very fond of pizza. Unfortunately, I probably won’t post anything more until tomorrow.

 

[Job 33:6]

It tells us that the watery deep came into existence, but it doesn't say when.


The text doesn't actually say that verse 1 is an event.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the Earth...

Verse 1 is just an introductory statement.

It's like saying in the beginning when I rode my bike...

But it doesn't complete the event. It's just saying "when God did this..." And what's important is what comes next. Verse 1 itself is not an event.

In the beginning when I walked down the street...

It's an incomplete sentence. You need verse 2.

In the beginning when I walked down the street, it was raining outside.

In the beginning when God created the heavens into the Earth, the earth was formless...

The beginning is defined by God's action. Not by the material origins of the cosmos. The story is about God, it's not about the cosmos.

If I said, in the beginning when I walked down the street, it was raining outside, you wouldn't take that to mean that it instantly began raining the moment I walked outside.

Likewise, we don't assume that the Earth instantly came into existence the moment God began to create it.

That's an interpretive possibility, but the text doesn't mandate it.

And people have debated this for centuries. Both options are grammatically possible based on the Hebrew text.

And I'll just add too that in ancient near East texts, if things did not exist, even that didn't necessarily mean that they were not materially present, but rather that they did not have a defined purpose. The ancient perspective on "existence", Bible scholars would argue was not based on material existence but rather was based on functional existence or whether something had meaning or purpose. And so the Deep was described as non-existent, But at the same time it's still chaos or chaotic Waters.

Proverbs 8:24-26 NRSV
[24] When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. [25] Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— [26] when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil.

And you can see it if you look at this passage closely, before the mountains had been shaped, when he had not yet made Earth.

The creation or the making of Earth is associated with this idea of shaping mountains.

Proverbs 8:27 NRSV
[27] When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

And here are the creation of the heavens is associated with the circle on the face of the deep, the circumference of the firmament. The Deep Is already there. And God draws a circle on it.

It's not talking about material coming into existence, it's talking about drawing and shaping and molding and doing things with material, that's what creation is. And this is how every creation text is in the Bible and anyone who's honest about the Bible will see this.

 

[CoreyD]

When I wrote that it wasn’t definitive, it was because one could read the second half of Genesis 1:2 as transitional. I only speak a little Hebrew, but my wife speaks it well. She also says that it isn’t definitive. The timing is not 100% clear, and there is no reason Moses thought it should be.

Jerry, lots of people are not your wife, and speak Hebrew, and they would say your wife is biased, and so are you.
You and your wife would argue not, but what does that change?
It doesn't change anything. It just says people will have their ideas.

 

[CoreyD]

Job is always very careful in how she writes her posts. She is always patient and concise and demonstrates deeper thought. I am also very fond of pizza. Unfortunately, I probably won’t post anything more until tomorrow.

From my experience, I would say otherwise, but also keep my mouth shut about it.
Thanks for your opinion though.

 

[CoreyD]

And I'll just add too that in ancient near East texts, if things did not exist, even that didn't necessarily mean that they were not materially present, but rather that they did not have a defined purpose. The ancient perspective on "existence", Bible scholars would argue was not based on material existence but rather was based on functional existence or whether something had meaning or purpose. And so the Deep was described as non-existent, But at the same time it's still chaos or chaotic Waters.

Proverbs 8:24-26 NRSV
[24] When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. [25] Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— [26] when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil.

And you can see it if you look at this passage closely, before the mountains had been shaped, when he had not yet made Earth.

The creation or the making of Earth is associated with this idea of shaping mountains.

Proverbs 8:27 NRSV
[27] When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

And here are the creation of the heavens is associated with the circle on the face of the deep, the circumference of the firmament. The Deep Is already there. And God draws a circle on it.

It's not talking about material coming into existence, it's talking about drawing and shaping and molding and doing things with material, that's what creation is. And this is how every creation text is in the Bible and anyone who's honest about the Bible will see this.

Bear in mind you have not answered my questions.

My question here is, would you say the waters were created by God, or the water had no beginning?
Would you deny that God created the waters that covered the earth?

My question here would be, would you deny that God created the heavens and then stretched them out?
Would you object to that?

 

[Job 33:6]

Bear in mind you have not answered my questions.

My question here is, would you say the waters were created by God, or the water had no beginning?
Would you deny that God created the waters that covered the earth?

My question here would be, would you deny that God created the heavens and then stretched them out?
Would you object to that?

I've answered many of your questions, you just have many many questions. I've done nothing but answer your questions for some time now.

Ultimately, and I've said this numerous times now, God is the ultimate creator of everything ex nihilo and anything that follows.

And I would recommend starting by clarifying what kind of creation you're referring to. Because as we've seen, creation can mean many things. When God stretches out the heavens, that is creating.

Jeremiah 10:11-12 NRSV
[11] Thus shall you say to them: The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens. [12] It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.

This is an example passage describing God creating the heavens and the earth, and as we see, it involves stretching out the heavens.

Did God create the heavens ex nihilo at some time before he stretched it out? Yes I would say so. It just not an event described in Genesis. That's not what Genesis is about.

 

[CoreyD]

It tells us that the watery deep came into existence, but it doesn't say when.

Well we don't need a PhD to know it has to be before Genesis 1:2

The text doesn't actually say that verse 1 is an event.

It doesn't say it's not an event.
Like the verses following though, it's part of the account,
Hence to claim it's not an event, is to detach it from the events... on whose authority? Your own.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the Earth...

Inserting texts now. That's adding... which is like changing the text.
Do you love dishonesty, so long as it supports your ideas?

@Jerry N. can you or your wife read this?

Verse 1 is just an introductory statement.

Says the woman with the user name Job 33:6.

It's like saying in the beginning when I rode my bike...

No. Cheating or being dishonest will get you there, but it is really like In the beginning I rode my bike.

But it doesn't complete the event. It's just saying "when God did this..." And what's important is what comes next. Verse 1 itself is not an event.

In the beginning when I walked down the street...

It's an incomplete sentence. You need verse 2.

In the beginning when I walked down the street, it was raining outside.

In the beginning when God created the heavens into the Earth, the earth was formless...

The beginning is defined by God's action. Not by the material origins of the cosmos. The story is about God, it's not about the cosmos.

If I said, in the beginning when I walked down the street, it was raining outside, you wouldn't take that to mean that it instantly began raining the moment I walked outside.

No. It does not.
You went for a translation that inserted a word, to suit your beliefs.
One paraphrase Bible - Good News Translation, and two New ones. Three out of all.
That's not honesty as far as I am concerned.

Likewise, we don't assume that the Earth instantly came into existence the moment God began to create it.

God created the earth, according to Genesis 1:1. Not began to.
Honesty they say, is the best policy. The Bible says, it's mandatory. Hebrews 13:18

That's an interpretive possibility, but the text doesn't mandate it.

And people have debated this for centuries. Both options are grammatically possible based on the Hebrew text.

You never did say what the heavens refer to when the Bible says the expanse of the heavens, and you never responded to my question.
The water does not exceed the highest heavens, so that tells us there are heavens above the expanse.
Do you accept that?

You never did address these either.

1. 
   Oceans and seas are both large bodies of saltwater, but they differ primarily in size, depth, and geographical location. Oceans are vast, deep, and continuous expanses of water that cover approximately 71% of Earth's surface, forming one interconnected global ocean.
   Seas, in contrast, are generally smaller, shallower, and are typically partially enclosed by land, often located at the margins of oceans where they meet continents or islands.
   While seas are part of the larger ocean system, they are distinguished by their proximity to land and often have unique ecological and geographical characteristics.
   
   God created seas from the existing body of water described as the watery deep.
   The seas did not exist until the earth move, but the body of water existed before.
   God is not now creating the body of water again. That would be ridiculous to say.
   The seas are a new creation. They have now come into existence with the movement of the earth.
2. 
   The heaven that God here creates, is the expanse, where the birds fly, etc. See this post.
   It's not the heavens. That's why from Genesis 1:14-18, we read "heaven / expanse of the heavens"
   Did you not read that... expanse of the heavens?
   Then read it again, as it is described. The expanse is heaven, right? Therefore the expanse of the heavens is the heaven of the heavens, is it not?
   Genesis 1:1 reads "God created the heavens..." Not the heaven.
   The heavens in verse 1 is not the expanse.
   The expanse lies within the heavens... if you consider realistically, that the earth actually is in the heavens. It's a body within space.

 

[CoreyD]

Did God create the heavens ex nihilo at some time before he stretched it out? Yes I would say so.

Thank you.

It just not an event described in Genesis. That's not what Genesis is about.

That is a belief, you prefer, but there is no basis for it.
Let's hear the basis for why you say "Yes. God create the heavens ex nihilo at some time before he stretched it out"

 

[Job 33:6]

Thank you.


That is a belief, you prefer, but there is no basis for it.

The basis is that, that's how ancient texts were in the ancient near east, they described creation out of chaos, not ex nihilo. Ex nihilo philosophical ideas did not arise until later in history.

 

[CoreyD]

The basis is that, that's how ancient texts were in the ancient near east, they described creation out of chaos, not ex nihilo. Ex nihilo philosophical ideas did not arise until later in history.

So, you have no basis other than someone's opinions and interpretations... and back with that unsupported claim which was disproved.
The basis for it is the scriptures which says God created the heavens and the earth. Not from nothing... which is not scriptural, but from his vigor; power; force; substance; energy. Isaiah 40:26
Source 1 2

 

[Job 33:6]

So, you have no basis other than someone's opinions and interpretations... and back with that unsupported claim which was disproved.
The basis for it is the scriptures which says God created the heavens and the earth. Not from nothing... which is not scriptural, but from his vigor; power; force; substance; energy. Isaiah 40:26
Source 1 2

Regarding the Hebrew text itself, I think it's reasonable to understand both options as being possible, the next step is to examine historical context. If you have hundreds of Bible scholars saying that both translations are legitimate, and you're trying to figure out which one to go with, you look at how people in history thought about creation. That's like Bible study 101. It's called "context".

That's why history is important. You don't think that historical context is important in Biblical interpretation? Imagine an alternative of believing in something that wasn't attested to in history.

Here is a good video on the subject:
Robert Holmstedt on Genesis 1:1-3

And here is another Hebrew scholar discussing the grammar:

It's actually a more common position among Hebrew scholarship that the dependent clause or construct translation is not only a legitimate alternative, but even further, the more accurate translation. Hence why more translations are leaning in this direction since the discovery of the dead sea scrolls.

 

[Job 33:6]

So, you have no basis other than someone's opinions and interpretations... and back with that unsupported claim which was disproved.
The basis for it is the scriptures which says God created the heavens and the earth. Not from nothing... which is not scriptural, but from his vigor; power; force; substance; energy. Isaiah 40:26
Source 1 2

Isaiah 40:26 doesn't say anything about ex nihilo creation. It notes that God created heavenly lights, which everyone agrees with. But it doesn't say anything about what kind of creation is being referred to.

 

[Derf]

The universe is the heavens, isn't it.
It's not heaven where birds and airplanes traverse.
What is the heavens of heavens, or heaven of heavens mentioned in these verses? Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27


Resided. The waters are no longer there since the floodgates of the heavens burst open. Genesis 7:11,

Seems like they are still there. Most translations say "windows of the heaven(s)" Malachi 3:10 KJV — Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I would guess the water was somewhere above the Mesosphere.
It's only a guess as I don't know.

Then the waters could have been much further, and possibly were the material with which God made the stars and planets and galaxies?

Can you give me a rough idea where the sun, moon and stars traverse?

The sun and stars don't technically "traverse" with respect to earth, as far as we can tell. but they are in outer space, above earth's atmosphere.

You speak as though you believe the firmament is a solid dome, rather than a region of atmosphere.
Am I reading you correctly?

No. Nor do I believe the firmament stops at the edge of earth's atmosphere.