Young earth vs Old earth?

[Job 33:6]

Not exactly. We agree that God created Jacob, and that after successfully wrestling with God's messenger, Jacob asked for a blessing before releasing the angel. The angel renamed Jacob to Israel, ie., one who wrestles with God. The renaming tradition occurs often in the Bible when a mortal engages with the eternal or His angel showing the individual's transformation after encountering the other-worldly.

God does create Isreal. That's what the Bible plainly says. This isn't up for debate.

I am the LORD, your Holy One, Creator of Israel, and your King. Isaiah 43:15

Or here:
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I am creating, for I am about to create Jerusalem as a joy, and its people as a delight

But either way, the point is that, these things exist, materially, and God creates them after they already materially exist.

 

[Job 33:6]

Not exactly. We agree that God created Jacob, and that after successfully wrestling with God's messenger, Jacob asked for a blessing before releasing the angel. The angel renamed Jacob to Israel, ie., one who wrestles with God. The renaming tradition occurs often in the Bible when a mortal engages with the eternal or His angel showing the individual's transformation after encountering the other-worldly.

The point here is that Jacob materially exists, and God takes Jacob, and creates him. God is not limited to ex nihilo creation. And that's the simple answer to what we see in Genesis 1. The objects are already there. And God creates them. And it's the same Hebrew word, bara.

And you're welcome to call it whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is, the Hebrew term here is create. If you want to call it "transform", you can do that. But the fact of the matter is, the Hebrew word bara, involves Creation in circumstances where the material is already there.

And that is a basic fact of the old testament.

And you're welcome to wrestle with that reality. I'm simply pointing out to you.

 

[Job 33:6]

Not exactly. We agree that God created Jacob, and that after successfully wrestling with God's messenger, Jacob asked for a blessing before releasing the angel. The angel renamed Jacob to Israel, ie., one who wrestles with God. The renaming tradition occurs often in the Bible when a mortal engages with the eternal or His angel showing the individual's transformation after encountering the other-worldly.

Here's another example, Psalm 51:10

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Some people might say, oh that sounds strange, of course David already has a material heart. So what does this mean?

It's a basic fact that in the Old Testament, God regularly does this, he creates objects that already materially exist. He takes objects that already exist, and he does something with them. And depending on the context, that might look like different things.

But the ultimate point here is that physical objects exist, and God still creates them anyway. Because the creation being described is not about material existence.

And that's what's happening with the heavens and the Earth in Genesis 1. Or some similar notion, the point being that it's not about ex-nehilo material creation.

And once you see that, you'll know that Genesis doesn't actually say anything about how long the Earth has materially existed.

 

[Jerry N.]

Here, God creates the Earth, he called the dry land Earth. He did that by taking something that was disorderly, and he gathers the waters and he takes it and gives it form.

The Earth is formless, on day three. He creates it, and it is no longer without form.

That is creation. Creation is not in verse 1:1.

I know that this thread is about the creation story, but I want to point out what I think is the most important concept in the story; God makes order out of chaos. He did it with the earth, with Noah when he returned to land, with Israel, and with us. God often destroys, but He usually replaces the destruction with order.

 

[Derf]

The thing is, God creates things all the time in the Bible. But we never interpret those passages as meaning that physical objects appear out of thin air. Traditionally, the church has only assumed that to be the case in the first verse of the Bible. But in actuality, for centuries, Jews of antiquity and people of the ancient near east, have understood creation to involve pre existing material.

So just as God created Jacob, God could create the heavens and the earth. Not to say that Jacob appeared out of thin air, however. And so it is with Genesis.

You know what else God also created in Genesis? Adam and Eve. And they were made out of dust and a rib bone.

But people assume, for whatever reason, that the first verse of the Bible must be different. But without any textual support. It's simply a philosophical assumption.

It's different because it is in the beginning. The beginning of all He created including the vessels (heavens and earth and seas) that everything else is in. But I agree that most things are created out of existing material, as described.

And I agree that Gen 1:1 is an introduction, not a separate creation narrative. Since it was a beginninng, my focus on what might have been the first thing created out of nothing was the waters in vs 2, whether they were h2o waters or something more akin to plasma.

 

[o_mlly]

Bara in Hebrew, or to create, means to make, or to do. It is an action. And when God creates something, He is taking it and doing something with it. Like if I said, I am going to make a pizza. And I take that pizza in its formless state, and I give it form. That is creation.

Only God can Bara. Your making pizza is not Bara, a creative act but a transforming act.

If God "is taking it and doing something with it" then He is not creating but transforming, as whatever "it" is, "it" now exists.

Bara refers to supernatural creation ex nihilo (Latin for “out of nothing”) but asah means to make out of pre-existing material.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here's another example, Psalm 51:10

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Some people might say, oh that sounds strange, of course David already has a material heart. So what does this mean?

It's a basic fact that in the Old Testament, God regularly does this, he creates objects that already materially exist. He takes objects that already exist, and he does something with them. And depending on the context, that might look like different things.

But the ultimate point here is that physical objects exist, and God still creates them anyway. Because the creation being described is not about material existence.

And that's what's happening with the heavens and the Earth in Genesis 1. Or some similar notion, the point being that it's not about ex-nehilo material creation.

And once you see that, you'll know that Genesis doesn't actually say anything about how long the Earth has materially existed.

@o_mlly

I know that this thread is about the creation story, but I want to point out what I think is the most important concept in the story; God makes order out of chaos. He did it with the earth, with Noah when he returned to land, with Israel, and with us. God often destroys, but He usually replaces the destruction with order.

Well that's exactly it, so some translations simply say, when God began to create the heavens and the Earth, the Earth was chaos.

The multiple translations like the nrsv updated edition and the ylt or the ceb, or the nabre, they involve creation in which the Earth is already there, but it is in its chaotic state.

And God steps on, and takes that and in 6 days forms it.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

But we use the words form or transform or make, the Bible just uses the word create. Or bara

 

[Job 33:6]

Only God can Bara. Your making pizza is not Bara, a creative act but a transforming act.

If God "is taking it and doing something with it" then He is not creating but transforming, as whatever "it" is, "it" now exists.

Bara refers to supernatural creation ex nihilo (Latin for “out of nothing”) but asah means to make out of pre-existing material.

And this is actually not true, in the Book of Ezekiel, Ezekiel is commanded to create a sign.

And even if you think that this is true. Anyway, the fact of the matter is, and Psalms in which David calls on God to create a clean heart in him, the heart physically is already there.

So even if I accepted your response, which I don't, it doesn't matter because the physical material is already there and this is a fact.

When God creates, it doesn't have to be a material creation, and that's the point, so when you read about God creating the heavens and the Earth, that doesn't have to be about material appearing out of nothing. In fact, it is not.

 

[Jerry N.]

@o_mlly

Well that's exactly it, so some translations simply say, when God began to create the heavens and the Earth, the Earth was chaos.

The multiple translations like the nrsv updated edition and the ylt or the ceb, or the nabre, they involve creation in which the Earth is already there, but it is in its chaotic state.

And God steps on, and takes that and in 6 days forms it.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

But we use the words form or transform or make, the Bible just uses the word create. Or bara

Right, I just always find that the key to seeing God’s hand in His creation, in mathematics, chemistry, biology, physics, and in the Bible, is a God of order from chaos. How He did it is important, but why He did it gives a little insight to know Him and His plan, which is the purpose of the Bible. I didn’t mean to interrupt the flow of this tread, but I always find hope in the organizing power of God.

 

[Job 33:6]

Son of man, mark out two roads for the sword of the king of Babylon to take, both starting from the same country. Create a signpost where the road branches off to the city.

This is Ezekiel 21:19 and it uses the word "bara". In which God commands Ezekiel to create something.

Only God can Bara. Your making pizza is not Bara, a creative act but a transforming act.

If God "is taking it and doing something with it" then He is not creating but transforming, as whatever "it" is, "it" now exists.

Bara refers to supernatural creation ex nihilo (Latin for “out of nothing”) but asah means to make out of pre-existing material.

 

[Job 33:6]

Right, I just always find that the key to seeing God’s hand in His creation, in mathematics, chemistry, biology, physics, and in the Bible, is a God of order from chaos. How He did it is important, but why He did it gives a little insight to know Him and His plan, which is the purpose of the Bible. I didn’t mean to interrupt the flow of this tread, but I always find hope in the organizing power of God.

Yeah no I think that's an important topic, and so at the end of the day, we end up in a situation where Genesis doesn't actually clarify on when the heavens and the Earth materially came into existence, rather the text is about when God takes creation, or the heavens and the Earth while they are still in their chaotic state, and God creates them and gives them form.

And for this reason, we can't deduce the age of the Earth, because the text doesn't say how long the Earth was in its formless State before God took it and gave it order.

 

[o_mlly]

But we use the words form or transform or make, the Bible just uses the word create. Or bara.

		Bara: to shape or create			Asah: to do or make
Gen. 1:1		created the heavens and earth	Gen. 1:7		made the expanse between the waters above and below
Gen. 1:21	x1	created the sea creatures and birds	Gen. 1:16	**;x2	made the sun, moon and stars
Gen. 1:27	**;x3	created man (both Adam and Eve)	Gen. 1:25		made all land creatures
Gen. 2:3	**	created and made all His works	Gen. 1:31		all that He made
Gen. 2:4		created heavens and earth	Gen. 2:3	**	all His works which God created and made
Gen. 5:1	**	created man (both Adam and Eve, cf. 5:2)	Gen. 2:4	**	made heaven and earth
Gen. 5:2		created male and female	Gen. 3:1		made the beasts of the field
Ps. 89:47		created all the sons of men	Gen. 3:7		made loin clothes from fig leaves
Ps. 104:30	x1	created sea creatures	Gen. 3:21		made garments from animal skins
Ps. 148:5	**;x2	created heavens, heights, angels, hosts, sun, moon, and stars	Gen. 5:1	**	made man (referring to both male and female)
Isa. 40:26	**;x2	created stars	Gen. 6:6	**	made man
Isa. 40:26		created trees, rivers	Gen. 7:4	**	destroy every living thing that I have made
Isa. 54:16		created the blacksmith and the destroyer	Gen. 9:6	**	man made in the image of God
			Ps. 121:2	**	made the heavens and the earth
			Ps. 104:24	**;x1	made the sea, sea creatures, and land animals
			Isa. 41:20	**	done this, made the trees and rivers
			Isa. 43:7	**	made, created, and formed man
			Isa. 45:18	**	made, formed, established, and created the earth

Understanding Genesis 1 Hebrew: Create (bara) & Make (asah)

Many people who have written on Genesis 1 have attempted to make a very significant distinction between two Hebrew words found there.

answersingenesis.org

 

[Job 33:6]

		Bara: to shape or create			Asah: to do or make
Gen. 1:1		created the heavens and earth	Gen. 1:7		made the expanse between the waters above and below
Gen. 1:21	x1	created the sea creatures and birds	Gen. 1:16	**;x2	made the sun, moon and stars
Gen. 1:27	**;x3	created man (both Adam and Eve)	Gen. 1:25		made all land creatures
Gen. 2:3	**	created and made all His works	Gen. 1:31		all that He made
Gen. 2:4		created heavens and earth	Gen. 2:3	**	all His works which God created and made
Gen. 5:1	**	created man (both Adam and Eve, cf. 5:2)	Gen. 2:4	**	made heaven and earth
Gen. 5:2		created male and female	Gen. 3:1		made the beasts of the field
Ps. 89:47		created all the sons of men	Gen. 3:7		made loin clothes from fig leaves
Ps. 104:30	x1	created sea creatures	Gen. 3:21		made garments from animal skins
Ps. 148:5	**;x2	created heavens, heights, angels, hosts, sun, moon, and stars	Gen. 5:1	**	made man (referring to both male and female)
Isa. 40:26	**;x2	created stars	Gen. 6:6	**	made man
Isa. 40:26		created trees, rivers	Gen. 7:4	**	destroy every living thing that I have made
Isa. 54:16		created the blacksmith and the destroyer	Gen. 9:6	**	man made in the image of God
			Ps. 121:2	**	made the heavens and the earth
			Ps. 104:24	**;x1	made the sea, sea creatures, and land animals
			Isa. 41:20	**	done this, made the trees and rivers
			Isa. 43:7	**	made, created, and formed man
			Isa. 45:18	**	made, formed, established, and created the earth

Understanding Genesis 1 Hebrew: Create (bara) & Make (asah)

Many people who have written on Genesis 1 have attempted to make a very significant distinction between two Hebrew words found there.

answersingenesis.org

Yeah that's right and also when Ezekiel creates a signpost, that's also the same word.

Son of man, mark out two roads for the sword of the king of Babylon to take, both starting from the same country. Create a signpost where the road branches off to the city.

This is Ezekiel 21:19 and it uses the word "bara". In which God commands Ezekiel to create something.

And the same is true in Psalms When God creates a clean heart in David.

Among other examples, man and God both create, and both do so involving material that already exists

 

[Job 33:6]

Yeah that's right and also when Ezekiel creates a signpost, that's also the same word.

Son of man, mark out two roads for the sword of the king of Babylon to take, both starting from the same country. Create a signpost where the road branches off to the city.

This is Ezekiel 21:19 and it uses the word "bara". In which God commands Ezekiel to create something.

And the same is true in Psalms When God creates a clean heart in David.

Among other examples, man and God both create, and both do so involving material that already exists

And this is another common misconception by the way, but anyone can fact check this, indeed mankind can bara objects.

In the ancient near East, this is how creation was done, it was always done using objects that already existed.

It's actually a modern philosophical position that these are instances in which material did not exist. And it's a misconception based on philosophy, it's not actually grounded in the text of the Bible itself. At least not in the Old Testament, we do see it in the New Testament with Greco-Roman influence of later centuries.

 

[o_mlly]

This is Ezekiel 21:19 and it uses the word "bara". In which God commands Ezekiel to create something.

1254[e]

בָּרֵ֔א bā-rê,

Make

V-Piel-InfAbs

"Make a sign; put it at the head of the road to the city."

"Bara does not always mean to create out of nothing. God created the first male and female humans (Gen. 5:2). But we know from Genesis 2:7 that God formed (יָצַר, yatsar) Adam from the dust of the earth and in Genesis 2:22 we are told that God fashioned (בָּנָה, banah) Eve from the rib of Adam. ...​

​

"It is true that in Scripture only God is the subject of the verb bara; men make (asah) things, but only God creates (bara). But God also makes (asah) things. The verbs alone cannot tell us how God created and how long He took to create."​

Understanding Genesis 1 Hebrew: Create (bara) & Make (asah)

Many people who have written on Genesis 1 have attempted to make a very significant distinction between two Hebrew words found there.

answersingenesis.org

 

[Job 33:6]

1254[e]

בָּרֵ֔א bā-rê,

Make

V-Piel-InfAbs

"Make a sign; put it at the head of the road to the city."

"Bara does not always mean to create out of nothing. God created the first male and female humans (Gen. 5:2). But we know from Genesis 2:7 that God formed (יָצַר, yatsar) Adam from the dust of the earth and in Genesis 2:22 we are told that God fashioned (בָּנָה, banah) Eve from the rib of Adam. ...​

​

"It is true that in Scripture only God is the subject of the verb bara; men make (asah) things, but only God creates (bara). But God also makes (asah) things. The verbs alone cannot tell us how God created and how long He took to create."​

Understanding Genesis 1 Hebrew: Create (bara) & Make (asah)

Many people who have written on Genesis 1 have attempted to make a very significant distinction between two Hebrew words found there.

answersingenesis.org

Exactly. So here is a circumstance where people also bara objects. And there are several examples of people creating or bara ing, In the Bible, we see this in Samuel with people creating themselves fat, we see this in the Book of Joshua with people creating a clearing in the forest.

In fact people do bara in the Bible. It's not a term strictly associated with God.

And it always involves situations where the material object already exists.

The Hebrew word there, we translated as make, but in Hebrew it is bara. Ezekiel is commanded to create assign post. It just depends on what English translation you use, but the Hebrew word is the same, bara.

 

[CoreyD]

The key here is to understand that verse 1:1 is not an event, but rather it is an introduction.

Intro:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

Story/Body:
Now the earth was... Genesis 1:2

If Genesis 1:1 is not an event, but an intro to what is about to take place. verse 2 says there was an earth before God actually created one, and that makes absolutely no sense, and defies logic.
Something cannot exist and at the same time not exist.

How do you explain that?

 

[Job 33:6]

1254[e]

בָּרֵ֔א bā-rê,

Make

V-Piel-InfAbs

"Make a sign; put it at the head of the road to the city."

"Bara does not always mean to create out of nothing. God created the first male and female humans (Gen. 5:2). But we know from Genesis 2:7 that God formed (יָצַר, yatsar) Adam from the dust of the earth and in Genesis 2:22 we are told that God fashioned (בָּנָה, banah) Eve from the rib of Adam. ...​

​

"It is true that in Scripture only God is the subject of the verb bara; men make (asah) things, but only God creates (bara). But God also makes (asah) things. The verbs alone cannot tell us how God created and how long He took to create."​

Understanding Genesis 1 Hebrew: Create (bara) & Make (asah)

Many people who have written on Genesis 1 have attempted to make a very significant distinction between two Hebrew words found there.

answersingenesis.org

Actually, let me clarify, there's a contradiction in this post, if you look at the Hebrew it's specifically says bara or bare which is a derivative of bara. But then in the text quoted it says that in scripture, only God is the subject.

Answers in Genesis is not a credible source for this, it's internally contradictory and they don't know what they're talking about.

If you have eyeballs, you can see right there bare or bara, and you can click on that and you can see that the Hebrew term is bara.

And in fact, in that passage of Ezekiel, you will see that Ezekiel is the one who creates or is commanded to create.

And there's probably four or five instances in which in the Old Testament, people bara things.

But this is a contradiction with young Earth creationism, it is a simple fact that undermines it, and so answers in Genesis can't acknowledge this or it will undermine their whole position.

 

[Job 33:6]

Intro:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

Story/Body:
Now the earth was... Genesis 1:2

If Genesis 1:1 is not an event, but an intro to what is about to take place. verse 2 says there was an earth before God actually created one, and that makes absolutely no sense, and defies logic.
Something cannot exist and at the same time not exist.

How do you explain that?

You just have to look at other translations.

The nrsv, for example says, in the beginning when God created the heavens and the Earth, and the Earth was formless and void.

Some translations say now, some say and.

Some translation simply say, when God began to create the heavens and the Earth, now the Earth was formless and void or and.

You have to look at many translations to see this, you can't just lock down on one translation.

And honestly it helps to look into the Hebrew as well. There's a debate in Bible translations and scholarship in which the text can be translated in construct form, or it can have a dependent or independent clause.

It's a grammatical debate.

Like saying, In the beginning when George began to study, his notebook was empty (The notebook was empty for some undetermined amount of time beforehand). Vs. In the beginning, George began to study. Now his book was empty (As though the notebook was empty as a product or result of him beginning to study).

The Bible can be translated correctly both ways. English can be correctly written both ways. And the original Hebrew text doesn't clarify on whether the text is saying one or the other.

And this has led to a lot of confusion and conflict over centuries of church history. That mean you can read Jewish scribes debating this topic a thousand years ago.

And so in order to see this, you have to look at multiple translations so that you can identify the distinction. Because if you only look at a couple select translations, you won't see the dependent clause alternative translation that helps highlight the issue.

And they are both legitimate translations. Or families of translations I'll say, because there are many translations in both groups.

 

[Job 33:6]

Intro:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

Story/Body:
Now the earth was... Genesis 1:2

If Genesis 1:1 is not an event, but an intro to what is about to take place. verse 2 says there was an earth before God actually created one, and that makes absolutely no sense, and defies logic.
Something cannot exist and at the same time not exist.

How do you explain that?

And we just went through this discussion shortly ago, feel free to read our posts, but it is regularly and commonly the case that in the Old Testament, God creates things that are materially already there. And I gave a few examples above, for example, David asked God to create a clean heart in him in the Psalms, another example would be in the book of Isaiah where God creates a blacksmith, or God creates Jacob, or God creates Israel.

It is common that God creates things that already exist, and the reason for this is that, the Hebrew term bara someone noted above is commonly used to refer to taking things that are without order or are tohu, and giving them order or giving them meaning or purpose.

And so God can take objects that are chaos or disordered, or meaningless, or purposeless, or formless etc. and God can create them, and by the end of creation they are good.

And that's how God can create things even though they already exist. Which sounds really strange in English, but when you understand the historical ancient near East background, it's actually a really common way of describing creation and we see this same thing play out in many ancient near east texts.